Choir mics for SR (Gospel)?

[ohmsweetohm]

Hi Folks,

I had a look at the existing threads on choir recording and I didn't quite see a scenario that addressed what I'm looking at. Also I just realized that there isn't a pure SR forum on GS which is a little strange.

I have a relatively large church (800 seats) that is set up as a theatre (balcony, stage, band pit on the front left, center dias and chorus stalls center against the back wall. The roof over the stage is a Geodesic dome and the audience (orchestra and balcony) are a trapazoidal extension.

This is modern Gospel so it's essentially raucous R&B. The drums are WAY loud in the room, particularly the snare. They have plexi-panels around the drums but honestly I'm not sure if it doesn't make it worse in terms of funneling the snare up and then all around the room.

Anywho, the chorus (at the moment) is well removed from the band, but the band is loud and the house PA is always REALLY loud (mono JBL cluster flown over the front center of the stage). When I started the gig a few weeks ago they had 4 C1000s on the chorus which are pretty ineffective. I always hated this cheap mic anyway. And they have 4 galaxy hotspots facing back at the choir which sound awful but it's some form of monitoring I guess. As this hasn't been working, they've been just using 5 or 6 handhelds strategically given to the stronger singers. It ends up being like 80% from the handhelds and 20% from the C1000s. It's not a pro choir. Wide variety in the quality of the singers. Honestly the approach with the handhelds might actually be the best solution, but I thought I'd ask if anyone had any ideas on a better approach?

They also want to move the band directly in front of the choir which, as much as I'd like to please them I think I'm going to lobby against. I don't see how that doesn't destroy any mic'ing aside from the handhelds.

My first thought was to suggest they get Omnis but in reading the other threads I'm thinking this will probably only make the problems worse. 414XLS has a wide-cardioid mode that I like a lot (and fig 8) but they're too expensive to tell them we need 2 or 4 of them. I'm looking for $200 - $300 per mic. I had the thought of trying PZMs on the banister of the choir stall. It would only pick up the front row probably but it might at least be a nice image of that to blend with the handhelds.

Also, concerning the handhelds, can anyone recommend one with a nice wide card pattern? It seems like all HH vocal mics these days are hyper-C, even ones that claim to be card like the Senn 835 in reality function like hyper-C. When I need a wide HH I generally just grab SM58s but I'd really like a better option (again, for under $300). This is an issue I also have with cabaret or ANYONE with acting training. Apparently part of all acting training is that microphones are magic and will pick up your God-like voice no matter how far away you are from them or how much you move around. Again, for actors I've found SM58s have been the most reliable (also for the SPLs of broadway belters). Anyone got a better suggestion?

Thanks in advance for any input!

ATB,

[CubeCity]

I have the same problem in a room of about 800. I've been looking at the Sennheiser ME36 tiny shotgun mic, hung from the ceiling, one for each section (Soprano, alto, tenor, bass)

Is turning down the band an option? You might find your money best spent on an enclosed plexiglass cage for the drums, to give everybody else incentive to turn down. Of course, if they're used to "raucous," the musicians are going to fight you on this. If you tell them, "People need to hear the words," will they be more likely to go for it?

What about adding sound absorption to the room?

[ohmsweetohm]

Hey thanks for the suggestions!

You have to see this room. It would be a HUGE production to even hang mics. The ceiling is this dome with a few wood beams.

We actually already have plexi-glass on the drums and I'm not sure if it isn't making the situation worse. It funnels the snare straight up and then it ricochets around the room. I have overheads that barely have any snare in them but the snare itself is too loud with no mic at all against the band AND the chorus.

I thought about shotguns. I don't own any to test. My first move is going to be testing the SD condensers I have which are a pair of 451s and a pair of N5s. I've settled on Beta 87C (cardioid) for my recommendation for hand-helds.

We'll see how it goes. This place has a 10 year old Soundcraft K2 and a mono cluster. When I started a month or so ago they were amenable to the idea of spending on a new board and speakers, but I freakin' mixed myself out of getting anything like that. They're too happy with the sound now...lol.

Telling the band to play quieter works about as well as it always does . It's really just the drums, and even more really just the snare. I'm actually thinking of replacing the snare with the new Korg Wavedrum.

Thanks again for sharing! Let me know if you get the shotguns going.

[Roland]

From your description I would go with handheld 58's. IMHO I can't think of anything else that is going to approach being satisfactory. If you go on Youtube, you will see that this is the way most of the larger churches with decent gear handle it, with my PA hat on, it's exactly what i would do.

Regards


Roland

[ohmsweetohm]

Thanks for the input! Is there a reason other than price that you like them over the cardioid Beta 87s? Do you think Gospel singers will blow them out?

I've done quick A/Bs between 58s/beta 87/Senn 835 and the 87 are in a whole different league in terms of clarity.

Again, I appreciate your feedback!

[Jim vanBergen]

Hey Pier,

While I can understand Roland's position, I am of the school that says try your best to get some cardioid condensers in the choir, on tall stands, getting better multi-voice area pickup. The cardioid dynamics are great for two to three voices at a time, it's hard to get them backed off to capture more voices with enough gain. I'd look at trying mics like Senn 8040s, Neumann KM184s, or DPA 4021's for a short body and nice, tight cardioid pattern on a boom atop a tall stands & boom.

I've done gospel choirs of all kinds of sizes, and have done everything from 16 RF HH's to a choir of 600 in Giants Stadium with 40 Shure 87s on tall stands within the choir, my most recent gospel success stories included condenser mics aimed at the choir's sections on risers, reduced wedge volume (with monitors in the choir mic mull positions) and using gobos for isolation between band and choir.

And if I were in your shoes, I'd fight hard to get some L&R speakers to add to that mono center cluster, make a plan for subs for some separation of bass & kick and make sure they are planning/saving to upgrade the console in the future 'cause that K2 won't last forever! I know very few of those desks that are still in useful operation, due to component failure over time.

Hope these thoughts help!

JvB

[ohmsweetohm]

Hey Jim!

Thanks so much! That's basically what I've been telling them about the K2. It already has some pretty major issues.

I don't think they'll be willing to spring for the SDs you're mentioning although who knows.

I've been blending 4 SD condensers with 6 handhelds. It works ok but I'm in agreement that the more that can be done from the group mics the better.

My situation is weird in that I don't really have a problem with the band bleeding into the choir mics - the band is in a pit pretty far away. The problem is that the band and the house itself is so loud that the choir has to be boosted to the point where they feedback just from the house cluster alone (even though they're like 15 feet behind it!). This makes the hand-helds more necessary than they might be normally.

I'm so with you on replacing the mono cluster, but again I'm running into the issue that all of sudden they like their sound for the first time . It's impossible to convey how much better I could make it sound if they used a stereo line array.

[loujudson]

I have touted these a lot and still think they are the best thing for what you need:
RØDE Microphones - NT3

I have five and use them regularly on choirs, put them on boom stands all the way up, one per section.

They look like C1ks but sound like a million bucks!

Lou

[ohmsweetohm]

Very cool. I actually hadn't checked out any Rodes until recently a client just gave me a pair of NT5s and an NT1-A. Have tried the large one but the 5s have been great as room mics when live recording. I just did a live multitrack where I used them as drum overheads. Haven't checked it out yet.

I was gonna just sell the NT1-A but I read it can be good on kick if you use a pad (very hot mic apparently).

[loujudson]

NT5 has a wider pattern, hard to gte enough gain before feedback in your situation. NT3 are less expensive and tigher pattern, larger diaphragm. I happen to love them!

They have a newer one, the M3, that is electret and smaller diaphragm, nice bu tnot the same.

L

[paraudio]

This seems to be the main problem in a lot of our churches that do a lot of R&B Gospel. Seems to me you need to find a way to control your "house volume"

Drums in a room this size is always a problem. Once you enclose them then you have the same problem with sound bouncing all over the walls that's muffled. You could always go with electronic drums and that would help first off with your house volume and then deal with the remaining players by piping them through the board and using their amps as monitors for themselves at the appropriate volume. After that your choir mic selection problem should be pretty simple with all the choices. sm 81's neuman km series, sure ksm seriies or the higher end dpa's or whatever your choice is. You may never hear your choir until you control the "live drum " sound and reflections from the wall and building. Thats also probably why your other musicians keep turning up!!