ribbon/pre match ups...

[Howie J]

OK, so I'm thinking of jumping into the world of ribbons finally. I'd like to round out the "style of mic" collection so I can really get used to using a ribbon, and also since I teach audio/tech at a high school, my students/interns can see them first hand.

I'm also practicing for a (hopeful) personal recording of trumpet performances for a press kit CD. After reading here about the wonders that ribbons do on trumpets, I'm curious to play with them...especially since a 1/3 of my pieces are on the wonderfully shrill piccolo trumpet.

Anyway, I've kind of sold myself on the Cascade Fathead II Blumlein package. I record a lot of orchestra, wind ensemble and choir stuff so why buy mics 1 at a time right? Looks like Atlas is selling them for $375 so...good deal. I also want to get better at my stereo micing techniques.

So, these mics would go into a couple different sources. 1. ART Dual MP tube pre, 2. Presonus D8, Digi 002R, or a Yamaha LS9-32. I'm thinking I would always run the ribbons through the Dual MP since it has the best impedance for more sensitive things. It sports 2K ohms for the XLR's. Not the best...but best of the lot.

So, would a moderate ribbon perform through a moderate pre like this? A nice 8 channel pre is my next toy I'm saving for. Audient ASP 008 or True Systems 8 channel. Thanks for any help.

Howie J

[Roland]

The biggest concern with pre's for ribbons is noise performance. Most ribbons are pretty low output, so the noise performance of your pre becomes more of an issue. Personally I'm not sure if I've ever used the Art tube pre, but a lot will depend on what you are recording. If it's quiet sources you are likely to have more problems, with trumpet it shouldn't be much of an issue.

the Audient and Tru Systems pre are pretty mid market gear, that's not too say that they won't perform well, but if you are looking for upi market pre's, Millenia, Crookwood, Forstell, etc, are the way to go.

Regards


Roland

[Howie J]

Roland,

Thanks for the input. Yeah, I know where I'd like to be with pres, but am currently leaning the ladder against that wall. I'll get there...but not at the moment. If money just happened to Grace my presence (pun intended) I'd look into a Millenia HV or Grace 801 or the like. Have to remember that I'm only buying ribbon mics that are $400 a pair at the moment. One of my AT 4050's trump the pair on price.

Anyway, I agree with the noise performance. That's why that D8 sucks. Push that thing past about 65% and you start recording an instant wind storm. The MP is at least tolerable. For an inexperienced purchase 7 years ago, that damn little pre has held it's own. I digress...to a honeyweiss...

Howie J

[Corran]

Check out the TritonAudio FetHead in-line preamp. It delivers 20db of ultra-clean gain and ensures optimal loading on the ribbon at all times. Basically it makes the ribbons "active" and it works really well. I have a pair that I use often with a stereo B&O ribbon that needs tons of gain. I can even use it with a handheld recorder that provides phantom power.

$100 per unit might be a little steep but they are still versatile. They work well on dynamics as well as tube mics.

OktavaMod - Shop

[Howie J]

That thought did cross my mind. Cascade advertises the Rode inline amp on their site. The Dual MP has a +20 gain switch on it. I tend not to use it since it really isn't needed with most of my LDC's and SDC's, but I'm wondering how that would work with the ribbons.

Howie J

[Corran]

I've heard the Rode is very noisy. But hey if your pre has a 20db boost definitely try it out!

[bonestar]

I don't think I'd bother using a ribbon mic with a low end pre like an ART. There's usually too much noise and not enough clean gain. I used to use my Great River MP-2MH a lot with ribbons and quite liked it, but I recently picked up an AEA TRP and that's kicking my ass all over the place. Love it! And it's not even that expensive.

[jnorman]

i have used a fathead II with one of the triton fethead units. the fethead did supply adequate gain and fix the impedence matching issue, but i was less than satisfied overall, as somehow the unit seemed to adversely affect the sound of the ribbon. i posted a clip from that here:
More comparative samples - fathead, at4051, km184s - flute solo

to properly drive a ribbon mic for the kind of material you are doing (orchestra, wind ensemble and choir) will require a lot of clean gain, and i am doubtful any of the pres you mention will give you results that you like. when i bought my pair of royer r-121s, royer recommended the sonosax SX-M2 - a small portable 2 ch preamp with +70dB of gain, which they were currently using in their own testing labs. you can find them used for around $650 or so - you might check over at the yard sale on the taperssection.com forum.

OTOH, if you are close micing a trumpet, you may be able to get away with the pres you have, and correcting the level during post if needed by normalizing or boosting with a limiter.

alternately, you could consider one of the active ribbon choices now available, such as the nady RSM-8A ($200 each), golden age R1 ($220 each), or the very interesting looking new active ribbon mic from audio technica - the AT4081- perhaps $600 each.

[MichaelPatrick]

AEA's TRP is a great stereo preamp for $870. Designed just for ribbons.

For $1,500 I also like the Grace Lunatec V3. It is small and has a built-in ADC so you can record straight to any device (16 or 24bit) that takes AES, Toslink, or SPDIF (e.g. an M-Audio Microtrack II or a computer interface). It has a mountain of quiet gain. To record a choral rehearsal I once ran it it flat out at 100% gain with a Cascade X-15/Lundahl. Noise was undetectable.

[chris319]

The AEA TRP is a fine preamp.

Pop quiz: Of the following three mics, which has the lowest output?

Shure SM57

Shure SM7B

AEA R84 (ribbon)

Answer below:















































































ANSWER:
The ribbon mic has the hottest output of all (-52 dBV @ 1 Pa). The SM7B has the lowest (-59 dBV) and the SM57 is in the middle (-56 dBV).

[Howie J]

Well, I have a pair of Fathead II's (Blumlein package) on the way. Be here Tuesday. This is definitely a work in progress, but I have a lot of good experimentation material. Being the technical director at a high school, the choir, orchestra, and band teachers always love recordings of rehearsals and stuff. We have 4 choral groups, 2 orchestras, and 2 concert/wind bands. I can ask to come in and record rehearsals anytime (mostly for my experimentation benefit) and give them a quick copy of the recording for the students' development and reflection.

The next thing I'm saving for is a SOLID multi-channel pre. (would've had it this summer, but bought my new C trumpet instead) I know some might say I should get the pre first, but it will work for the moment. I probably won't use these ribbons for the concert recordings unless I find a weird combo or situation that just rocks, but I'll get to learn their quirks and traits. Thanks for the comments all. After reading multiple posts, I have to say that the ribbon world seems to be one of the LEAST agreed upon areas out there. I guess it shows the diversity of the beasts huh?

Howie J

[Tommy-boy]

Originally Posted by Howie J

That thought did cross my mind. Cascade advertises the Rode inline amp on their site. The Dual MP has a +20 gain switch on it. I tend not to use it since it really isn't needed with most of my LDC's and SDC's, but I'm wondering how that would work with the ribbons.

Howie J

The Rode inline amps are an abomination. The noise level is insanely high. I did some testing in my studio and concluded that I would never use them in any circumstance. They're that bad.

Instead, I opted for a TRP, which I use with my Fathead2s. The TRP is really a fantastically clean pre, which is perfect for ribbons.

To echo comments made by others, if you're going to use a passive ribbon (like a fathead), it makes sense to get a decent clean pre that can really boost the sound. In line amps, low end amps, or amps without enough gain should be avoided.

-Tom

[chris319]

To echo comments made by others, if you're going to use a passive ribbon (like a fathead), it makes sense to get a decent clean pre that can really boost the sound.

The same can be said for any dynamic mic (ribbon or moving coil) such as an SM57/58, SM7B, the Heil mics, you name it.

[Howie J]

So, I tried my new Fathead II's with the Dual MP using the +20 dB gain feature. I had the output set at about 75% and the input at about 65% give or take. At that point it didn't induce much noise. I recorded myself playing our Baldwin SD-10 9' Grand at work.

I intended to setup a Blumlein but actually set up a MS (or Blumlein MS since it was two fig 8's). I was wanting to try the Blumlein, but oh well. I had the pair about 4-5 feet back from the piano, about as high as the lid on the high stick and pointing down about 45°. The sound was nice, but way, way low.

Probably not telling anybody anything new. Just my learning curve with ribbons. Needless to say, two Fetheads were ordered this morning.

Howie J

[macula]

One possibility is to mod a ribbon mic and embed a transformer. Mark Fuksman modded an Apex 205 ribbon mic for me a year and a half ago, and I use it regularly for familiarizing myself with M/S recording of classical piano. I plug the mic straight into my MR-1000 recorder with no problems. The gain is adequate.

[Corran]

You can use an inline impedance transformer (such as the Whirlwind "Little Imp") and plug it in between your ribbon mic and a DI, and it does something that makes the ribbon need a lot less gain, but I asked around and it apparently degrades the high-end performance, though the ribbon already has a steep drop-off on the highs so it might not make a difference to you.

It might be worth a shot for anyone as a really cheap solution, but I wouldn't do it on a really serious recording, though I have done it a couple times on a jazz recording and it worked pretty well.

[chris319]

it does something that makes the ribbon need a lot less gain

It sounds like a simple step-up transformer which steps up the voltage.

[Corran]

That's right, I couldn't think of the proper term last night.

[JEGG]

I don't currently use ribbons, and haven't used the TRP, but I thought I'd pass this on: There is a new version of the TRP which includes a bunch of features, including:

1. Phantom power (yes really). But there are still DC coupled and isolated inputs for ribbons or other mic's not requiring phantom power.

2. There is built in EQ to shape the top end of ribbon mic's.

And more.

Probably to be found on the AEA site, and there is a review in the current SOS edition.

[Corran]

The RPQ: AEA RPQ 2ch Ribbon Microphone Preamp w/ Curve Shaping

I really would love one for my stereo ribbon, but it's a bit too steep for me right now.

[Howie J]

MMMMM...that does look tasty. +1 on the steep at the moment. One to keep in mind though.

Howie J

[thedelugemusic]

How did it go with the FETheads, Howie???

[Howie J]

Wow, forgot about this thread.

I haven't used my ribbons for a month or so....although, when I got the FETHeads, I started using them on a bunch of stuff just for kicks. Thankfully I have the opportunity to try really weird stuff at work and nobody knows any better since it's all WAY over their heads.

They did add quite a boost to the ribbons. Like most people said, no replacement for a good pre with tons of clean gain...but it comes down to which is quieter: The FETHead, or the pre...and with cheaper pres...sometimes it's close.

The cool thing I used them for was live 58's. For reminders..I'm the tech director at a private christian HS in the Twin Cities. We have two all school assemblies per week. Tuesday and Thursday. Thursday is the more "faith-based" assembly and about twice a month we have a praise band. Usually acoustic gtrs, drums now and then, maybe djembe, bass, etc. Many kids don't understand the nature of a dynamic vocal mic and like to sing at it from a ways away. The FET heads give dynamics an almost condenser quality with a great gain before feedback. Sooo, if you have an inexperienced speaker holding a 58 or a 57 on a djembe player that likes to move a bit. Toss one of them on. Durability of the mic, power of the condenser.

This is obviously very general/simplified, but you get the picture.


As referenced by one of my recent posts...at the end of June/mid July I'm finally working with a local organist to do some solo trumpet and organ work and will try my ribbons with that. I doubt I'll use the fetheads for that since it will be in their "element" with a close mic situation.

I love the Fatheads if that counts. Used a Fathead and a 421 combo on a rock session I did in March. Mesa Boogie Heartbreaker amp with a PRS guitar for some. Also did some overdubs with the Fathead and the 421 again on a VOX AC30?? I think it was.

Howie J