EWI splitter snake

[ebulb]

im interested in this splitter snake..

PSPX

Im looking to use this on stage next to the venues normal stage box and run from the main split to my recorder and the monitor split to the venues stage box.. So all stage mics/DI's would run into my EWI then out into the stage box at the venue and id get the main split (with the most cable length) to the recorder.

My question is... If i give the foldback line to the venue guy is he getting the transformer isolated split ? IS that stage box even using transformer isolated split ? I didnt see any mention of this term, only multipin disconnect.. Is that something else ?

If the venue gets the foldback split off the EWI does this mean phantom power will neeed to be controlled from my pre amps off the main split ?

Im guessing this is right and I am only going to be using low cost pre amps (1x behringer ADA8000 and 1 x Focusrite Octopre).. WOuld there be any reason to think the venue and FOH might have a problem with the phantom power id supply from those units ? Also if i have phantom turned on for both units does that mean the venue would be getting fed two supplies of phantom power and would that be an issue ?

Im aware an isolated split is lower quality so im prepared there might be people complaining about that.. As long as it works though is the main thing.

I need to run my recorder off the main line, not for quality so much but because i want the HD24 as far away as possible from the band.. Im trying to overcome issues with the recorder dropping out.


Also i am contemplating the "poor mans splitter snake"..

PSPX

If there is no isolation between the splits on that snake and im in different venues.. What could go wrong ? If the FOH runs phantom power and ive just got my own pre's off my split whats the worse that could happen ? Is it just a potential issue of hum or buzzing in the recording or something worse ?

[loujudson]

Nothing in either page mentions transformers for the split. I would not use them in a professional situation, and if I were the live guy would not let you insert that into my system. Get a transformer split.

L

[bishopthomas]

Click the "splitter" tag at the top of the page and you will have LOTS of great information there for the taking. And no, the EWI snakes do not have transformers. Many people get by without them, just make sure you're on the same power source as the rest of the PA as it doesn't have ground lifts either.

[ebulb]

what could potentially happen if you werent on the same power source ?

[Gravity]

Originally Posted by ebulb

what could potentially happen if you werent on the same power source ?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

[7rojo7]

differential in potential! it could even be dangerous to canaries
If any signals ( ie. balanced to unbalanced, cold connected to ground) don't have a ground to go to, they just bounce around in a loop. Electrons act like water, they seek their own level, if that's down the chute, then that's where they go. It's like flushing the toilet. Isolate yourself from the rest of the shitters. Improves CMR, crosstalk, etc...
wouldn't happen with MADI

[Remoteness]

We use passive non-isolated splitters within our own system, but rarely consider using them when interfacing with outside (other) systems. The only time we would use a non-isolated splitter (aka Wye splitter) is when we know it's going to work ahead of time.

It's just not logical. There are just so many problems that could occur.
Why put yourself in that kind of situation when you can head your problems off at the pass with good quality transformers and ground lift switches?

If it's about economics you're in the wrong business.
IMHO, transformers are a must not an option.

[ebulb]

The thing is im not running on a professional scale.. Its always great to say spend more money but the more you spend the more you have to justify by making more etc.. I want to keep my thing aimed at younger local bands cause thats where i envisage the work to continue.. Hence im just looking for ways to keep the costs within check.

At the moment ive just been taking direct outs from FOH and suffering with whatever come with it.. its impacting the quality of the mixes so im going to do something.. im just deciding on what..

I think i will just go with 2 x Art S8 and some long cabling.. What distance can you run a balanced XLR cable before you loose quality ? Im weighin up whether to do the split at FOH, if the stage snake already has 100 foot or more of cable how much more could i add behind that before i get problems ?

[Remoteness]

You may not run on a professional scale, but do you ever want to in the future?
You are only as good as your last gig in our industry.

If you spend the bread or not, hum and buzz will arise when you don't use the proper isolated splitter.

IMO, it's not always a good idea to say spend more money if you don't want to, but don't confuse want and need. You need a transformer splitter when you're working in environments that you're not sure of.

Do you really feel that younger local bands don't have ground hum and equipment buzz issues? Having the right equipment to prevent potential technical dilemmas is a need not a want. It's just how it is.

Think about it this way; if you're looking for ways to keep the costs in check, think about how much you will save when by not needing to fix all the probable noise problems by not going with a XFMR splitter!

Look, I understand that you have to do what you think is best.
I just want to give you the heads up on what I feel is absolutely necessary.

When I started my company 33 years ago, I knew one thing and that was that I needed to have a mic splitter, so I saved my money and made it so. It took awhile, but I got it done. They weren't the best XFMRs around, but having them helped me tame the ground hum problems that occured on location.

The Art S8 is a good economical choice and a better solution than using no XFMRs.
We have split at FOH without any sound quality issues.

[ebulb]

Thanks Steve.. Its not that im not willing to spend money, i just dont want to get caught in the mindset that you always need to spend more and more etc.. There is always someone ready to tell you what you have isnt "pro" enough and you need to triple what you will spend to get the job done.. Often this "advice" seems directed without even considering the level you are playing at..

Also ive seen people with bugger all mixing skills or ear for sound think the only way they can get a better mix is by spending another 10 grand on something.. Im not meaning to criticising cause everyone has their own ways but to me, top of the line converters and pre amps are only going to benefit if your mixing skill isnt the weakest link in the chain to begin with.

Im not going to accept buzz in the recordings though and i appreciate what you are saying its a need not a want.. thanks.

[Kyle S]

just to add... ive seen people that had crappy equipment AND didn't know anything about audio pump out crappy recordings and make a killing. usually never even bother to upgrade their equipment.

[edwinhurwitz]

I use one of these on a regular basis. It was used for my in ear/recording rig based on Metric Halo interfaces. I toured for almost three years where it was used 3-6 nights a week, up to 150 gigs a year. I can count the number of times I had buzz or hum issues that were traceable to the splitter on 0 fingers of 1 hand. We were in venues from crappy little bars (where Telecaster noise overshadowed anything that could be heard from the splitter) to festivals. However, it's quite possible that it could happen. I did carry around 8 Sescom splitters in case I needed some transformer isolation but didn't ever end up using them, so eventually I just left them at home.

We did have trouble when the a-hole monitor guy at one particular festival in Illinois insisted on using his splitter and miswired it on both ends and then blamed the DI'd keyboards for the feedback in the wedge monitors that the singers used. Bassnecter (I know, bluegrass/rock followed by DJ electronica is pretty eclectic) followed us immediately and showed his enthusiasm for the monitor guy's expertise by chucking the wireless mic at him. But I digress.

Edwin

[loujudson]

Hey Edwin! Interesting post. We usualy agree on things, and I did use passive splits for radio recordigns a lot in the 80s with few problems, but still I would not recommend hardwired unisolated splits in this century. There are a lot more condenser mics and DIs now, and the effect of loading the phantom power with the inputs of another device (especially if no transformers in the recording or main boards) is simply not wise.

I also must say that the EWI is not very much cheaper than a real splitter of the whirwind or proco variety...

Lou

[edwinhurwitz]

Well, I only say this by way of empirical evidence, not out of what would be optimum. The OP did seem to suggest that his funds were limited and I have yet to see a transformer isolated split for close to the price of what I paid ($250 new) for my splitter (PSX-24S-15-15). I had been collecting transformers to solder into the splitter, but given that I never ran into any problems, I let it slide. Maybe my choice of preamps has helped, I don't know. Of course, as soon as I get that really important career making gig, it will probably let me down!

I did expect the quality of the EWI splitter to be pretty dodgy, so shortly after I got it, I got some Mogami 24 pair on ebay cheap that I planned to use to replace the EWI cable, but after 5 years of reasonably hard use, the Mogami is still sitting in the basement.

I agree, transformers are way better, but I have yet to have had a gig where it was a deal breaker that I didn't have them. It is possible that my tracks might have sounded incrementally better without the loading between preamps, etc, but in most cases, the ambient acoustic and electrical noise has far overwhelmed those factors in the gigs that I do (although what with school these days, that's almost none). I have only run into one engineer who insisted on using his split and treated me with derision about my setup and I detailed the results above. 99% of the FOH guys I've run into have ranged from ambivalent to enthusiastic about using my split, very little negativity. I'm sure I have been lucky, but I think a positive, flexible attitude has also helped.


My bottom line is this: If I did this primarily for my living, I would build myself a transformer isolated splitter with ground lifts on every channel and Y'd XLR and multipin i/o into a rack. It would cost me a reasonable amount in time and money (and would be a lot of fun to build) and would pay for itself in a fairly short time. In fact, I probably have most of the parts already, as I have collected 16 Sescom transformers. My reputation is pretty solid for my workmanship, so when house guys who know me see me coming, they trust that anything I bring in is going to work well and make their lives easier. But, I don't do this for my primary income, so I don't have the cash throughput to take it to that level at this point, and that seems to be similar to the OP's situation.


Edwin
Damn, Lou, if I hadn't ditched my band for law school, I'd be in San Francisco right now setting up in Golden Gate Park for Hardly Strictly Bluegrass and again tomorrow afternoon, with 3 days off following in my favorite city! I'd love to come back out and have some sushi or something...

[Remoteness]

Edwin,

I hear you loud and clear and totally understand where you're coming from.

I assumed that the 150 or so gigs you did with your non-isolated splitter was in locations that you tied into the same power as the sound company you split to.

I wonder what the out come would have been if you were tied into another power source or some dirty power that had a ton of hash on the neutral?

As you know, this is why we use transformers for our audio, video and power.
Staying completely isolated is an excellent starting point,but...

IMO, if folks are on a budget and you only have the bread to isolate one of the above mentioned feeds, I would start with audio, then the power. If you do a lot of video work I would get a humbucker for the video feed before a power transformer.

When we started out (back in the late 70s) we purchased a XFMR mic splitter first, then (line level) audio and video transformers way before we installed a power isolation transformer for our truck AC. With the proper star grounding and such I felt it was okay to hold off a bit before we dropped all that bread for a killer XFMR.

Hey, you got to do what you feel is best for your situation.
Everyone has their way of doing things.
There is no bad way of doing something if the end result is a positive one.

[loujudson]

Yeah, agree with Remoteness. Do what works! I have a friend with a splitter that I borrow when needed...

and yes, they are more expensive. I concede.

As for Hardly Strictly, for me it is too many people and too loud sound. Though there are some tempting acts to go see I doubt I'll get there without being hired.

Sushi will be waiting for you when you do get out here!
Lou

[Remoteness]

Did someone say, "Sushi?"

[edwinhurwitz]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Edwin,

I hear you loud and clear and totally understand where you're coming from.

I assumed that the 150 or so gigs you did with your non-isolated splitter was in locations that you tied into the same power as the sound company you split to.

I wonder what the out come would have been if you were tied into another power source or some dirty power that had a ton of hash on the neutral?

Well, it was more like 150 gigs a year for 2 1/2 years and probably 70-80 a year or so for a couple of years before that, so the splitter has a lot of mileage on it.

I would say that I was tied into the same power as the sound company (mostly house rigs in clubs) 90% of the time. I was tied into various other power situations every now and then, but the only real trouble I would have was from DIs, which were usually solved by using ground lifts on the DIs. Band gear falling apart was a much bigger factor for sound issues than the splitter (like a Mesa Boogie literally going up in flames). I do think that I was very, very lucky.

For most of that time, I was in a touring band that did everything from tiny little coffee shop style venues (The Purple Fiddle in Thomas WV! Great venue!) to the High Sierra Music Festival and everything in between. I can't imagine that I didn't tie into some very crappy power situations.

Some of the little mountain venues in Colorado have insanely bad power. Luckily the Fly Me To The Moon Saloon in Telluride has fixed their issues. They had their stage power on a different leg of the service from the PA for a long time. At a gig there about 11 years ago our guitar player was using my '67 Bandmaster before I replaced the power cable with a properly grounded one, the cap from the polarity switch had gone bad and she got a shock that made her speechless for about an hour. I quickly upgraded both my 60s Fenders to 3 wire power cables.

There was a venue in Frisco CO that had somehow wired in the hot and neutral to different services. As soon as I plugged in my rack, my Furman AR1215 blew up spectacularly. Luckily the soundguy we brought worked as an electrician as his day job and he diagnosed the problem, got us all running for the show and then charged the club a buttload of cash to come in the next day and fix their issues. They paid for my Furman repair.

It can get crazy out there!

Edwin

[loujudson]

Originally Posted by edwinhurwitz

There was a venue in Frisco CO that had somehow wired in the hot and neutral to different services. As soon as I plugged in my rack, my Furman AR1215 blew up spectacularly. Luckily the soundguy we brought worked as an electrician as his day job and he diagnosed the problem, got us all running for the show and then charged the club a buttload of cash to come in the next day and fix their issues. They paid for my Furman repair.

It can get crazy out there!

Edwin

Crazy anywhere. But It is okay to call Frisco CO by that name - but I can sing you a song called "Don't Call it Frisco" next time you come to CA!

And yes, soneone did say Sushi! If you come to San Rafael do not miss Tebkyu, where Chuck is the master sushi "sheff"...

Lou

[Remoteness]

Are you referring to Tenkyu on 4th near the Montecito shopping mall?
I believe I've been there when visiting some friends not too long ago.
It's run by a Chinese family; right?

[loujudson]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Are you referring to Tenkyu on 4th near the Montecito shopping mall?
I believe I've been there when visiting some friends not too long ago.
It's run by a Chinese family; right?

That's the place, except it is about ten blocks West, just past the Rafael Theater, between C & D Streets.
Tenkyu - San Rafael, CA don't belive the bad reviews, they are great! Just ask Edwin.
Google Maps has better reviews... Send me a PM next time you're out here, we'll meet you there and introduce you to Chuck and his lovely wife. They are Asian but I never asked which variety. Lovely folks!

Lou

PS - nothing is more on topic for remotes than a good place to eat!

PPS and maybe the cooks in the back room are Hispanic but who cares, the food is good.