HD24 Live Recording, SPL Fixes

[ebulb]

Hi All

Ive owned a HD24 for a few years and i really like the unit except for one thing.. The drop outs in live situations.. Im told its SPL related and have heard of a number of peoples attempts to fix it..

Ive got a bunch of important live recordings coming up and id like to take steps to get rid of this beforehand.. So im looking at the best options. Im interested to hear from anyone whos had the problem a lot and if they have found a total fix for it.

Ive seen the youtube video where the guy puts the hard drive in the silicon rubber casing and then mounts it fixed inside the HD24... Has anyone who has had lots of drop outs done this ? If so has it totally solved the problem ?

Ive also heard that solid state drives have worked... a guy on HD24 yahoo forum told me a SSD by transcend has worked.. So im wondering if anyone has tried any solid state drives to solve the drop outs and if it has all worked reliably ?

Also if anyone has done lots of live recording at gigs with high volume and has never had any trouble.. Could you let me know what brand and model HDD you have used ? Im still wondering if its not down to the HDD itself and different models being more or less likely to cause the problem.

Beyond that ive heard of people putting washers behind the screws on the caddy and lining the unit with foam or sitting it on a pillow at the gigs etc... But ive also heard these things have not worked totally..

I want to make some changes soon cause the last gig i had this happen.. And the next few are important.

[cheu78]

better to ask Jim Williams at audioupgrades...he knows that thing really good. (as a lot of other stuff..)

just my 0,02$,

Bests,

Cheu

[Remoteness]

Perhaps your problem is the fact that the drive is not making a good enough connection to internal ribbon connector.

We have added plastic washers and it seemed to have fixed that problem for us.
We never ran into intermittent drives since the fix.

[macleod]

i have done noise gigs where the lf spl is so high that my retena are vibrating and i cant read the displays on the machines as they look like they are wobbeling all over the place.

9 times out of ten you get the disk error and it drops out.

The solution i found was to buy a bunch of adat xt machnines ( they have a bad name yes.!! ) and split them off the adat outs of the hd24. As they record to digital tape they dont have the same problems.

when the hd24 stops the adats keep recording, i note down the section of time code i need to keep and edit it in post.

If the hd24 doesn't have an error I just wipe the adat tapes with the next show.

Works sweet.

[ebulb]

i had considered a sjimilar option to ADATs backup... I thought about buyng an M Audio lightbridge to take the adat out of the HD24 into firewire and record with my laptop also, Its an insurance policy but id rather try and get the HD24 thing fixed if i can..

Ive heard that solid state drives have worked and this to me seems like the most promising avenue.. Im usually on a video camera while the gig is being recorded so i cant look at the LCD all the time to see if theres any errors etc..

I'll try the screws on the caddys and also placing it on something soft to absorb vibration.. It cant hurt but ive heard people try those things and still get drop outs so im thinking the real nature of the problem runs a bit deeper.

[Alan Smith]

I've done quite of bit of FOH recording with the HD24's in very high spl situations without a single drop out (jinx.) Using Seagate Barracuda drives.

One thing to note is your HD24 placement. Even with a good shockmount rack if you place it in the front part of the FOH position, then you've just got straight sound waves coming at you and a chance at vibration. Try behind the board, on a concrete floor (If there is one) If you can avoid tables, as they will resonate. The worst placement: lip of stage, near main stacks/subs. You're just asking for trouble.

The plastic washer trick does work, but do as Steve suggested and check all your connections, as well as your HD24 placement.

I've had them work without issue even on a cruise ship going thru some rough seas (cases rolling across stage-bad) and have had no dropouts.



2cents.

[ebulb]

Hi Alan

Thanks for the tips.. I have done a fair bit of live work with the HD and its generally been ok but the last thing i did failed and i need it to be more solid through the next few months..

Ironically the recording that failed last was on a seagate barracuda.. in fact i think its that drive which has always given me problems so im going to try the washer thing and the maxtor that came with it and will also find a better place for the unit.. i think im recording again on the 9th so i'll see how it goes.

Id still like to hear from anyone who has fix mounted a hard drive or tried a solid state drive.. I would much rather think i can put the box anywhere anytime and know its going to work than be worried about it.

[ergower]

I just want to echo the earlier post noting positioning of the HD24's....I have found this to be the most important thing when avoiding dropouts...and I haven't made any adjustments to the drive caddies.

My completely unscientific and unsubstantiated claim is that if you have to be positioned at FOH, and the volume levels are ridiculous, along w/ the shake from the subs....then try to break those low frequency waves up before they get to the rack. i.e., put something big in front of the rack that will deflect or break up the low frequency stuff...

also....when I am in that situation I always use the drive 2 slot since it is in the center of the machine (now how unscientific is that), don't know why this helps, but it does...and I use heavy duty shock racks of course...

finally..just run two machines (not synced) so if one drops out the other keeps going...I know it's saved my ass a few times

Ross

[ebulb]

positioning does make sense... What sux though is you never quite know whats good enough and it can often be tricky to find good spots when you are working around other people..

I'll try all the positioning things and caddy washers before the next show.. The only thing i dont like is the hit and miss nature of this..

Im seriously considering getting the M Audio lightbridge also and running a laptop as backup... never thought id see the day where i thought id need to use a computer to backup a bit of dedicated hardware though..

[idave]

** What follows is taken from an email conversation with Adam (ebulb) and thought some or all of this may be of some use here**Of course these views are just my own based on some common sense**

Adam, I was surprised to find a) How "many" users on the Yahoo HD24 board had problems and b) It didn't seem it bothered many users 'that" much!! I was kind of shocked over both actually because for any piece of equipment to be used seriously in a Pro arena it needs to be 100% reliable (well, closer than the HD24 anyway,,) Isn't it like having a car that sometimes starts & sometimes doesn't, or more to the point your driving along the highway and if the wind happens to be blowing West the car stops, NOBODY would put up with that would they!!
*
I really like these machines as they sound good, are cheap,easy of use etc! I only use mine a big tape recorders & then transfer into PT's or Logic so I have no experience with a lot of the other functions.

As far as the HD Mod & Test I did ** (I haven't tested them in a real world situation as yet just in my Studio as I haven't been recording loud rock music lately) . That test included recording on all 48 tracks whilst I played some very loud rock guitar (power chords) thru a Vox amp whose speaker I positioned so it was approx 6" away from the front of the HD24's. This lasted for about 15/20 mins without a single problem. I should point out that although at first I had thought that it must be the sub-bass that causes the problem it appears to be more of a mid range thing (hence the power chord test) Very un-scientific although it was I made a video of it and will post it when I get a chance too edit it.

Of course my test was not quite the same as recording a full band playing live but it made me feel a little more secure.As soon as I can test it "properly" in a loud environment I will let you know my findings!

** I need to add for viewers that the HD Mod that I did was replacing the HD's in Bay#1 in both my HD24s with a "fixed" HD. This idea came from "Remy" (Yahoo HD24 User Group) and there is a video of the process on YouTube at this link;- YouTube - RemyRAD HD24VibroFix1

=============
Another interesting option maybe the Seagate harsh environment HD ST980818AM EE25.2 Series™ PATA 80-GB Hard Drive | Seagate
I started to investigate the harsh environment drives after seeing this YouTube video about drives & vibrational problems YouTube - Shouting in the Datacenter

My general thoughts on the HD24 are;-
a) any HD used in the HD24 needs to have a "full format" before use (some people on the board have reported as much as 4 hours to complete this, so be it I say!)
b) The*Seagate*Barracuda 160gb EIDE 7200.10 seems to be a good option.
c) Someone on the Yahoo board has made and available for sale a Caddy with a converted Sata option, This is probably a good way too go as the EIDE Drives are phased out and until an SSD becomes an option. Hopefully that will happen before the HD24 becomes extinct!! lol..
d) Although the HD24 seems to near the end of it's life it's still a great option "IF" these issues can finally be overcome. Why it's not "the" most talked about topic on the Yahoo Board baffles me. I guess some have just not had any vibration problems. Like you I feel if this cannot be sorted out fairly quickly it makes this machine not much better than a door stop in a Pro environment!!
e) The "Washer" Mod is a no brainer so why not!
f) I am also keeping an eye on the "JoeCo" Black Box Recorder development & hope to see it next weekend at the AES here in NYC.
==============
>>*My last resort if nothing works is to get an M Box lightbridge.. it converts ADAT optical to firewire, id just run the optical outs of the HD into it and then run a laptop with USB drive as a second recorder.. Its a messy option that id rather avoid but i'll take that over drop outs anyday.<<

*It seems we are both on a similar page or at least reading the same book,,lol.I have (2) HD24s as you may know and*recently added a Presonus Firestudio Lightpipe (Check my posts today which may help*as to why I chose the Presonus) *
My system is;-
a) wired digitally
b) 24bit/48k
c) I use Focusrite Octopres w/Adat cards and when you record at 44.1/48k both it's Adat outputs "mirror" each other so all 8ch's are output'd thru both lightpipe connectors. I send one to the HD24 & the other to the Presonus/Macbook/LogicPro/Glyph setup. This not only gives me a different backup option when I need to record more than 24 tracks it also gives a further expansion option as the Presonus has (2) Firewire outs & the 2nd one can be used to connect (2) Presonus units together. Eventually (money) I will buy a 2nd Presonus/more Pre's & Splits so I can record up too 48 tracks (both HD24s) and 48 tracks of backup to LogicPro!

cheers & I hope to meet a bunch of you at the AES party next Sat night!!
idave

[stevenj]

Originally Posted by idave

>>*My last resort if nothing works is to get an M Box lightbridge.. it converts ADAT optical to firewire, id just run the optical outs of the HD into it and then run a laptop with USB drive as a second recorder.. Its a messy option that id rather avoid but i'll take that over drop outs anyday.<<

*It seems we are both on a similar page or at least reading the same book,,lol.I have (2) HD24s as you may know and*recently added a Presonus Firestudio Lightpipe (Check my posts today which may help*as to why I chose the Presonus) *
My system is;-
a) wired digitally
b) 24bit/48k
c) I use Focusrite Octopres w/Adat cards and when you record at 44.1/48k both it's Adat outputs "mirror" each other so all 8ch's are output'd thru both lightpipe connectors. I send one to the HD24 & the other to the Presonus/Macbook/LogicPro/Glyph setup. This not only gives me a different backup option when I need to record more than 24 tracks it also gives a further expansion option as the Presonus has (2) Firewire outs & the 2nd one can be used to connect (2) Presonus units together. Eventually (money) I will buy a 2nd Presonus/more Pre's & Splits so I can record up too 48 tracks (both HD24s) and 48 tracks of backup to LogicPro!

cheers & I hope to meet a bunch of you at the AES party next Sat night!!
idave

This sounds like the exact setup i was going for. A set of HD24s with some of my own pres (maybe Aux outs) and a backup going to the Firestudi. I'm just trying to figure out where to do the split.

If i split at the mic level, i need two pre amps.
If i split after the pre amp, then i need a cable that can split into both recorders.
If i daisy chain into on HD24 and out into the 2nd (either via light pipe or analogue) that is cheapest, but i dont know if there would be a hickup if the first one fails or stops. I'm more worried about a HD24 stopping in the middle vs dieing or freezing up.
Or i can do 48 tracks into HD24s and daisy chain the lightpipes into the Firestudio.

So my question is really, what kind of hiccups would happen if the first HD24 "stops" or dies when i'm using the analog outs vs light-pipe outs, if any. Should i be splitting after the pre amps and before going into the analogue ins?

[ebulb]

In my tests the HD24 still passed the analog signal to the optical outs when it stoped recording.. i pulled a drive out of the HD24 while it was in the middle of recording 24 tracks and passing the analog to ADAT outs and it kept sending the signal..It was also acting as the master clock source to a firewire interface and it didnt affect that either..

After a few seconds it came up with a hard disk error but it kept sending the signal.. I didnt try using the analog outs to see if it did the same thing though.