Stereo Pair for Recording Bright (and Uncommon) Field Material

[Nityananda_SCSM]

Hail Slutz!

Hoping to tap into the great resource that the GS.com community is.

I am looking for some recommendations for a stereo microphone pair for recording high pitched, harsh, material in very live, loud unpredictable environments. I will be traveling to different temples and villages throughout India and recording traditional devotional music. This music is played completely with small handheld cymbals (kartals), handheld Mridunga's and voice. The musicians don't know about recording and so sometimes they softly, sometimes very loud (yelling and shouting), near the mics then away from the mics, and they are often moving and dancing, so I need to capture a relatively wide image to get everyone in as they move around. I will be using either a Presonus Digimax 96K (when I can) or a Fostex FR2-LE portable recorder. I will have 48v phantom XLR.

I have compiled a little webpage with pictures/videos/audio examples of what I will be recording.

stikestikeExample Clips of Kirttanstikestike


Here is a one of the songs from a CD I recorded with a wet version, dry version, and stereo mic (AT825) only version. This will give you an idea of how the karatals sound, and what kind of mics would be good for this sort of material.

Sri Siksastakam Songs of Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur:
Song 5 Anadi karama-phole (Edited with reverb, EQ, etc.)
Song 5 Dry with Stereomic turned up
Song 5 Just Stereomic

A random loud live festival event, audience singing towards alter, one AT825 stereomic 10 ft above them pointing down.
Gaura Arati

I want a microphone set that:



1. Smooths, warms, dulls, chills out, etc. the top end high frequencies. Still want to catch them though, as they are an important part of this music. Looking for smooth and silky..
2. Is able to withstand high SPL before distortion.
3. Probably don't want a mic that will pick up too much room sound, I will be in all kinds of crazy untreated environments, including primarily marble/stone temple rooms.
4. Medium sensitivity will be necessary for distance micing, although I'll usually have the mic somewhere you can hear the source pretty loud.
5. Ideally is black, and doesn't require a power supply. This will be a somewhat portable, inconspicuous setup.
6. Is between $150-$700, ideally somewhere around $350ish.
7. Will work with a Digimax 96K preamp. I think this probably cuts out a lot of ribbon microphones as I hear this preamp has relatively low gain. Although my source is usually pretty loud so I don't know..
8. Has a cardiod pickup pattern. I'm open to suggestions on this, but I think I will be too close for hypercardiod to work for me and have too much weird stuff going on behind the mics for wide cardiod.
9. Can operate in moist, hot, humid environments.

So a good warm (dark?) room mic for recording a mixture of handheld drums (Mridungas), high pitched hand cymbals (kartals), and crowds of vocalists at distances of 5-25 feet.

I Think My Ideal Mic : Sennheiser MKH 40 ($1200 street) Works well in heat/humidity. Has a beautiful sound, handles harsh material well. A true Pro mic. Too expensive for a pair (or really even one with my budget.) Did this mic use to sell a lot cheaper? What is the closest mics to this you can think of..?
Audio Technica, Rode, etc.

NEW FACTOR I MUST CONSIDER
I will be recording in hot, humid, moist environments. Condensers (especially Okatavas) apparently don't do so well like this. I need to find a stereo cardiod pair that will work in the humidity (like the Sennhesier MKH range) or if it can't be found in my budget, maybe a single wide cardiod or omni that will work in the humidity (for double the budget, say $800ish)
Companies based in humid countires:AudioTechnica, Rode, SE Electronics, Sony, (Audix sort of, Oregon)
The Sennheiser MKH line apparently is great for humidity, but pretty pricey.

Here is what I'm looking at so far:

Frontrunners (In Order): Elation KM201, Peluso CEMC6, AudioTechnica AE5100, Beyerdynamic MC930, AT4047, KSM 141, Oktavamod 012, Oktavamod 319, ... Which of those mics is the most silky smooth high end?

(Also a Elation KM201 vs Oktavamod 012 vs Peluso CEMC6 vs Beyerdynamic MC930 vs Shure KSM141 vs Audix SCX1-C vs sE Electronics SE3 comparison for warmist/smoothest top end seems in order for me.)



-Elation KM201($500ish?) Similar to a MK-012. UNFORTUNATELY not such a great humidity reputation. Supposedly warmer/smoother than MC930. The description in SoundonSound sounded great for me. Also a Gearslutz thread:
"shot out the Beyers and the Elations on ohs. Both sounded really great, but the Elations took the edge. It was amazing how similar they were in a lot of ways, but my shoulders relaxed when I heard the Elations. Super smooth and liquid like. The Beyers had a grain up there, while the Elations went all the way up but in a very smooth fashion."

-Peluso CEMC6 ($340) I hear great things, but will it work for my application? Any thoughts on the highs on these guys?

-AudioTechnica AT4047SV (street $550). Sounds pretty much perfect in terms of warming/smoothing harsh screechy highs. Disadvantages include price, color (bright sexy expensive silver, draws too much attention), size, and the fact that it will probably pick up more room sound then I want, who knows though that could be good.. Although the Frequency Response has a small boost in the highs between 5-7k, I hear the way the FET affects the sound causes the highs to be captured in a warm and smooth way. Some have said it's more a vocal mic than a room mic. I am looking for mics similar to this, that are maybe cheaper, black-er, and maybe more suited to room use. (The 4047 takes high SPL, quiet, good sensitivity)

-AudioTechnica AE5100 (street $280) The other recommendation from AudioTechnica's tech department. Supposedly a similar sound to the 4047, although more hyped in the high end and without that FET warming quality. Small, black, cheapish, and sounds pretty good. Has a kind of nasty looking high end boost/bump that worries me, and I haven't heard people say it's super warm or smooth either.

AKG C 480 B with cardiod capsule ($1000) Sound like a very good mic, comparable to the KM84. How does it do with humidty/wear/tear, and can somebody sell me one for $500!!!!

Oktava ML-52 ribbon mic ($500ish) Apparently ribbons don't suffer from humidity problems like condensers do. This is reasonably price mic. Thoughts?

-Beyerdynamic MC930 ($450ish street) (Too bright I hear?)

-Shure KSM141 ($400 street.) Great reviews, but I think I heard it was a bit brighter than the mics up top.

-HM-1 ($150, pair is $300) I've heard it's similar to the AT4047. I hear good things. It's black, smallish, the wide cardoid is probably too big/picks up too much from behind, but maybe not.. How does it do with distance micing?
-HM-3C ($200, pair is $400) I don't know much, it just looks like a decent choice.

-ADK S-7B ($300 street) Supposedly warm, mellow. FET. Cheapish. Can take high SPL. I don't like the gold, and maybe it is too dark, but it looks interesting..(From the ADK site) "A “round” tone to tame sibilance, nasality, or overly-bright source-material." "mellow sound coloration." Haven't heard much about it, it is pretty new..

-The semi-famous Oktavamod Mk-319 with Premium Electronics. ($550ish street) Kind of pricey, doesn't look like it will handle high-spl that great after the mod (mod removes the -10db pad, right?) Not sure if it's sensitive enough for a room mic. However many people say it's awesome, and I've heard it compared favorably with the AT4047. Also Michael Joly has a great reputation as an all around good guy, so that goes a long way.

-Octavamod MK-012 ($350) Maybe better for my application than the MK-319? Handles SPL better, multiple caps is nice, maybe will handle transients better, maybe better for distance micing / stereo pairs? Polar pattern maybe not tight enough..? Also weren't these mics like super cheap a couple years back? $80 at Guitarcenter and stuff like that? Is this that same mic, or have they improved it since then? I hear it loses to the Peluso, but maybe it's dark character will be good for me?
-Octavamod Ultimate MXL 603 - I hear it's goo for harsh content, plus I already have a 603s laying around, and maybe it'll deal with humidity better than the Oktava mics?

sE Electronics SE3 $350 I don't know much, sounds good though. Opinions?
sE Electronics sE4400a $800 I have increased my interest in sE products because they are based in Shanghai, another one of the most humid cities on Earth (along with Kolkata.) Hopefully they are used to the kind of humidity I have to deal with.

DPA 4061 ($450 street) small omnidirectional condenser mic (works well with humidity.) Little pricey, omni scares me (too much bad background sound..?), but looks pretty cool.


Other Possible Options:
Audix SCX1-C $480 I don't know much, sounds good though. Frequency response looks kind of hyped. Opinions?
Sontronics STC-1 $150 Don't know much, cheap, black, made in Shanghai also..
Shure KSM32 $500 Supposedly has some humidity protection. I wonder how it compares to AT4050..

Dynamic Cardiod Mid-Distance Options:
Heil Sound PR 30 $250 Street. Apparently used on choirs. Huge 10db boost in the highs.. Link.



Other Not-As-Possible options:
AKG C 451 ($580 street). Sound good, but I would think Peluso's would be flatter/better? Pretty pricey too.
A single Gefell M300 ($900ish). Sounds like a good mic, but probably too bright/expensive.
Josephson C42 ($420) I hear good things, but are the highs smooth enough? (I heard it's brighter than CEMC6)
AudioTechnica AT4050/KSM44 (I hear KSM44 is a little brighter and not much better than AT4050)
Hebden 3010 (used to be Calrec CM1050C) Hard to find, but heard theyre good.
----
Mojave Audio MA-201fet ($700 street) Too pricey really. But I might just get one if I hear awesome things about it..
Advanced Audio CM-47 $289.00 ???
Sterling Audio ST77 ($500 street) ??
At4033 (street $370) Similar to the AT4047?
Other U47-FET or KM184 clones and imitations? Not much will be cheap enough but it sounds like I want a that kind of sound, right?


Other Mics I've looked at:
T.H.E. KP-6M (Too crazy looking..)
Some used KM184s. I figure I can get better for my money, and I want new.
Cad M179 (street $150-$300) Cheap, good reviews, variable pattern a definite plus. Sound pretty flat, and I want something that will specifically warm/smooth the highs. Also black would be better..
Shure SM81 (I hear they are too harsh)
Chameleon Labs TS-1 (requires power supply)
Earthworks, Schoeps (expensive, and I think I need a little bit darkly colored in the highs. Plus I'd rather have a M300 for those prices.)

I Already Own:
2 Rode M1s
2 Rode M2s
2 Rode M3s
AT825
NTG2
1 MXL 603S (bought used $50)

I know, I know. Crazy big post, and a little disorganized. When I get a chance I'll fix it up a bit. But I need to buy this set pretty soon, so please help!
~Gearslutz Rocks~


P.S. Will Omnis work for a situation like this?? (I'm the guy next to the photographer with the at825 on boompole.

[Baithak]

Nithyananda: from reading your requirement, I think that a good dynamic omni mic is better for your needs i.e. a good mono image rather than a poor stereo image. Cheaper condenser mics can have frequency responses all over the map and their off-axis response (which is critical for a good stereo image) often have weird things in them that screw up the image. Also, you want to tamp down the extreme high frequencies and cheaper condensers are again the wrong way to go. Dynamic and ribbon mics are better suited for this application. I would not recommend a ribbon because of the environment that you are describing.

A cheap dynamic-omni like the EV 635a has pretty good off-axis reponse and a very neutral tone. For mid-distance micing it will capture a very nice sound. Among the dynamic cardiods the Senn MD 421 and EV RE-16 (hyper-card) are two very decent choices. If this were my project, I would capture one channel with the EV 635a type mic and a stereo image on the built-in mics of most currently available stereo recorders (Edirol, Marantz, Zoom etc). Blend as necessary in post.

Good luck,
Baithak

[Storyville]

My immediate thought from your post was a Royer s-12. However, they are way above your price range. Is renting a microphone an option?

[NorseHorse]

I definitely disagree. Go stereo. Go condenser.

I listened to your Sri Siksastakam recordings at the top of the page, and you're on the right track. Sounds very similar to some of the on-site recordings being released on the Celestial Harmonies label, some of which are Indian classical. The voices are nice and clean, but you could bring up the instruments if possible.

I wouldn't worry as much about preamps right now, as I would about microphones. A good (AND SMALL) pair of omnis or cardioids is probably the way to go. The Shure KSM 141 has gotten a lot of love and sounds like they would fit your needs. Rode NT5s with the omni capsule might also work for you, though they are often described as harsh (at least in cardioid). Oktava MK012s are also a good option. Judging by the samples I've heard here on GS, Beyerdynamic MC930 would work well. (In order, I'd suggest KSM 141s OR MC930s, then MK012s, then NT5s.)

I'd stay away from the large diaphragm condensers. I think you'd quickly find them too cumbersome.

[Don S]

Your budget is very low for a quality mic,but I can make a couple suggestions. In the $350 range, I would go for Octava mc012. They come with a pad, but not a HP filter. But, the they will sound good.
Adding to what Norse said, the KSM series is a fantastic bang for the buck. But, I would go with the KSM32 instead of the 137/141. The diaphragm is a little larger and has low self noise. A pair used would cost about $700. They DO have a slight "shure" edge to the sound (no more than any other budget LDC), but IMHO compliments percussion well. Also the KSM's are more durable. Octavas can be a little fragile and very sensitive to humidity and temperature changes. I've never had a KSM fail. I see many of them toured, which mean they can take a beating on the road.

[chris319]

If you're going to be hauling this equipment all over India and recording in different venues with varying acoustics, you want something that won't quit on you and that's built like a tank and can take the punishment of travel. Having listened to the clips, the material you're recording isn't terribly nuanced and doesn't have a wide frequency range.

I'm thinking along the lines of cardioid dynamics:

E-V RE16, RE20, RE27

Sennheiser MD421 (non-metallic case), e935

Shure SM7B (watch out for the low output), SM48, SM57, SM58

For omnidirectionals, look into the Shure SM63.

[MichaelPatrick]

I agree with Norsehorse. Shure KSM141 or Beyer MC930. I wouldn't use a Rode SDC because the high-end is always edgy and hyped to my ear. (I occasionally use an NT4 for environmental/ambient stereo pickup).

MC930 off-axis response is outstanding and it has a pad for high SPL situations. It turns out great results for me time and again by blending on-axis source sounds with ambient sounds without discoloration. For a cardioid the pattern is very forgiving and natural sounding no matter where the sound comes from.

For versatility there's nothing like the switchable KSM141. In cardioid it sounds a bit dry compared to the Beyer, but it's a great little mic. The omni option is ideal when you want to grab a whole space.

[Nityananda_SCSM]

Thanks a lot for all the helpful responses. As you can probably tell I tend to put a lot of thought/research/OCD'ing into my purchases, and the input of people with practical experience is, of course, invaluable.

Baithak: I hadn't considered omni (because theres a lot of weird stuff going on all the time off axis, people talking, cars, animals, etc.) or a dynamic (because I thought they were only useful for close micing things) but now I will consider both. Dynamics have the added benefit of being tough, somewhat foolproof, and handle the elements better than condensers. However I think I would rather get a decent dynamic omni (like the RE55) AND a stereo cardiod condenser set than just have one omni to rely on for all the stuff I will be doing. Thanks for the suggestion though, I think I will add one to my rig.

Storyville: I can't rent because I will be buying in the US and then living in India for about a year But another option I am considering is using ribbons with the TritonAudio FetHead Ribbon Mic Output booster and using a Fathead or something. Still, I want something that is tough and doesn't look real weird or distracting, so ribbons probably aren't the ticket..

NorseHorse: Thanks for your encouragement. After listening to it so many times it's hard to tell if it's decent or not, because your so used to it. I will raise the drum and maybe a little the karatals (sounds kind of muffled) and hopefully do some better stuff this next time around. Thanks for informing me about the Celestial Harmonies label, I'll have to check that out to get some ideas of stuff to shoot for. I hope to go condensers, just because I hear they're the method of choice for taping live concerts and for location sound, which is sort of what I'm doing. The Shure KSM141s and MC930s are definitely options, although the Elation KM201's are apparently smoother in the top end than the MC930s, and the MC930s are smoother in the top end than the KSM141s (from what I hear on forums.)

Don S: Your post has probably saved my a $ $ the most. I pretty much forgot about humidity/conditions. I will be recording almost entirely in West Bengal, which is about as hot+humid as you get in India. I mean it is really up there in the most humid places on earth. We have problems with condensation on camera lenses and with computers. So after researching a bit more I realize now that the Oktava mics are known for having issues with humidity. I need to make that a big factor in my search I think, because I will be indoors (hot,sweaty,stifling,people are drenched) and outdoors (literally in the actual jungle some times.) Too bad though, this is going make things harder (and probably cut out those delicious Russian mics built for cold dry enviroments..
I would probably go for the AudioTechnica AT4050 before a KSM44 or KSM32. I wonder if it is as tough as the Shure Stuff? Do you really think the KSM141 / KSM44 would hold up in high temp + high humidity conditions like mine? I should ask the manufacturer really but user-experience is always extremely useful.

chris: You may have a good point there, but I can't really imagine using Shure SM7B's for overhead mics for medium distance choir/instruments. What kind of a stereo cardiod pair in the $200-300 (each) price range would you think?

Michael: I'd rather have the Elation's I think but for humidity's sake I may go Shure or Beyer. Any thoughts on how those deal with moisture? I know the KM184's have special coating to prevent problems with humidity, I wonder who else does?

I had basically decided on the Elation KM201s (which are similar to Oktava 012s) but I have learned that both of those Russian mics don't do great with humidity (I was so close!) Now I have heard about the Sennhesier MKH line (MKH-60, etc moisture/weatherproof) but they are out of my price range and mostly supercardiod film mics by the look of it (MKH 8040 is cardiod though..)

Then again my other mics seemed to hold up OK, so I wonder how extreme I really need to go..

Anyway... What's a good condenser pair similar to KM84s, MC930s, MK-012s, KSM141s, CEMC6s, M300s, etc. that will hold up against the elements and still remain in my price range?
Or should I get a single more expensive cardiod/wide cardiod condenser that is more suited to humidity?
Jeez I'll be glad when I figure this out!

Thanks for all y'alls help.

-Chris

[Baithak]

Originally Posted by Nityananda_SCSM

Thanks a lot for all the helpful responses. As you can probably tell I tend to put a lot of thought/research/OCD'ing into my purchases, and the input of people with practical experience is, of course, invaluable.

Baithak: I hadn't considered omni (because theres a lot of weird stuff going on all the time off axis, people talking, cars, animals, etc.) or a dynamic (because I thought they were only useful for close micing things) but now I will consider both. Dynamics have the added benefit of being tough, somewhat foolproof, and handle the elements better than condensers. However I think I would rather get a decent dynamic omni (like the RE55) AND a stereo cardiod condenser set than just have one omni to rely on for all the stuff I will be doing. Thanks for the suggestion though, I think I will add one to my rig.

-- snip --

-Chris

Dear Chris : I will only respond to your direct comment.

It is precisely because there is all kinds of stuff happening around temples and such in Bengal and other parts of India that an omni is useful: you can jam them really close to the source and get a decent "you are there" type of sound without worrying about proximity effects and the like. Besides, cheap omnis imo, sound way better off axis than cheap cardiods. A fig-8 would also be useful because you could use the nulls but I don't know if a dynamic fig-8 (other than ribbons) exists.

Also, dynamics and omnis in particular are less sensitive to wind noise.

When Cards can be used, I stand by recommendation of either the Sennheiser 421 ( I have used its big brother 441/431 in the field in India over 10 years now without a single hitch) or the EV-RE-16 which thanks to its "variable-D" design has a lower proximity effect and can be used fairly close to source.

Good luck and if you are in India and want some last minute stuff, feel free to shout.

Baithak

[chris319]

chris: You may have a good point there, but I can't really imagine using Shure SM7B's for overhead mics for medium distance choir/instruments. What kind of a stereo cardiod pair in the $200-300 (each) price range would you think?

SM7Bs have somewhat low output but I listed nine other dynamics. There have been two recommendations for the RE16. Unless I didn't hear it in the clips, this is not nuanced harp or flute you are recording. On this material a condenser's ability to capture detail might go to waste and you'd be better off with a more durable mic such as the RE16.

[mathieujm]

Originally Posted by Nityananda_SCSM

Anyway... What's a good condenser pair similar to KM84s, MC930s, MK-012s, KSM141s, CEMC6s, M300s, etc. that will hold up against the elements and still remain in my price range?
Or should I get a single more expensive cardiod/wide cardiod condenser that is more suited to humidity?

I think all these sdc are prone to humidity problems.
I had some noises with my 930 in a VERY humid chapel. It was easily solved afterward but...
With condenser mic, I think only the Sennheiser MKH would be less sensitive to these pbs.
Probably a pair of sdc plus a pair of dynamic (421 ?) should be the solution.

JMM

[MichaelPatrick]

For high humidity travel I can think of several options:

• Dynamic mics
• RF condenser mics (i.e. Sennheiser shotgun models)
• Custom desiccant packing for the mics when not in use

I would opt for the last option because then your mics will be exposed only when in use, and that lets you select them for their sonic qualities.

Desiccant material can be purchased in many forms. I buy bulk and put it in doubled vacuum cleaner bags, then I staple and tape the end shut. I make the bags any size I need to fit the situation. The material must be sealed until you use it because it'll start grabbing moisture out of the air as soon as exposed. But it is a great way to keep sensitive electronic gear dry. With that and some good ziploc bags or moisture-sealed plastic cases, you'd be good to go.

[bradavenson]

Check out these driboxes:
dri-box - desiccants - SorbentSystems.com

I have used them along with an airtight Pelican style case with good results. They also have some good airtight plastic bags.

I also support the suggestions for omnis in this type of recording environment.
(But I may be a bit biased)

[Nityananda_SCSM]

Baithak: Cool. Good info. I will definitely get an omni dynamic to add to my kit so that I can jam it in front of a lead singer and let it pick up everything around him. Seems like that's a safer/sturdier way to go than trying to setup condenser pairs. I've generally heard the MD421 is better for instruments than voices, but I will look into it. The "Heil Sound PR 30 $250" looks interesting for my application too. Does it go without saying that a dynamic fares well in humid situations, or do I need to look into weather resistant dynamics too?

By the way I hadn't noticed that you were in India earlier. I'm based in Kolkata but I travel south and north occasionally, rarely towards Mumbai though. What kind of stuff have you had success recording in India? And what mics/humidity situations have you been in?
Have you had condensers present problems for you out there?
Are you annoyed by me asking so many questions?
Anyway thanks for the info I will add some dynamics to my kit for safety+ease of use in the hairy situations. But for when I have (some) control over my environment and want to make CDs, I still haven't given up on a pair of condensers..

chris: I will look into the RE16, thanks. I'll check out those other mics you recommended, too. I'm putting some serious man hours into choosing these mics..

mathieujm: "I had some noises with my 930 in a VERY humid chapel" Glad to know that info. Were the only problems you had low freq rumbling that you removed later? How easy was it? I won't commit myself to just recording with condensers, considering the risk. However I recorded most of my stuff in the past with the Audio Technica AT825 condenser stereo mic, and it seemed to hold up fine. However I am thinking that maybe because Japan is a pretty humid place Audio Technica does a good job at having them resist humidity?


Michael: Useful post. I have a lot of electronics including hard drives. My british friend who lives in India is very resourceful (His name is Mahananda, I call him MahaGyver), and we use Pelican cases or some kind of sealed bag/trunk with dry biscuits in them. When the biscuits get soggy, you replace them. Very cheap, although potentially more messy than the real stuff. I don't really have access to an oven (everything is pretty much flame cooked) but I'll look into the humidity stuff.
I will certainly be getting some dynamic mics to round out my options and as safe/tough pieces of gear to have. I would like to still get some dynamics (what's the poor man's equivalent of the MKH series I wonder?), and considering that my AT825 held up OK and that there are other mics with some degree of humidity protection (like the Shure KSM32, I believe) I am still searching down that road..

What I really want to know is, can I store a humidity sensitive mic (like the Elations, Oktavas, Beyers, etc.) in a Pelican case with dessicants and then use the mics for about 8 hours in the field before returning them to their dry cases without problems??

bradavenson: Yeah Pelica rocks, I already am hip to that. (I used Pelican plus biscuits last time.) Although I will look into the dri-box (I wonder if it'll dry out laying in the hot sun.)
I've heard about the STO-2 mics, but I wrote them off because they were omni. I might need to rethink that. How do you think will they do with bright material and in humidity?


By the way I feel very lucky to be getting advice from all these audio experts/gear manufacturers. Gearslutz is extremely cool for that.

The hunt continues.....

[MBishopSFX]

Originally Posted by Baithak

Dear Chris : I will only respond to your direct comment.

It is precisely because there is all kinds of stuff happening around temples and such in Bengal and other parts of India that an omni is useful: you can jam them really close to the source and get a decent "you are there" type of sound without worrying about proximity effects and the like. Besides, cheap omnis imo, sound way better off axis than cheap cardiods. A fig-8 would also be useful because you could use the nulls but I don't know if a dynamic fig-8 (other than ribbons) exists.

Also, dynamics and omnis in particular are less sensitive to wind noise.

When Cards can be used, I stand by recommendation of either the Sennheiser 421 ( I have used its big brother 441/431 in the field in India over 10 years now without a single hitch) or the EV-RE-16 which thanks to its "variable-D" design has a lower proximity effect and can be used fairly close to source.

Good luck and if you are in India and want some last minute stuff, feel free to shout.

Baithak

I second Baithak's suggestion. The EV dynamic omni may be a really good choice considering the environmental conditions. He's correct that an inexpensive omni will usually sound much better than an inexpensive cardioid due to its poor off-axis response. The EV actually sounds pretty good and will be excellent at taming shrill sounds! Most all of the condenser mics mentioned in your price range will only make such sounds more irritating, IMO.

You'll be able to minimize unwanted sounds by placing the omni mics closer to the subjects than you could with cardioids. Going with dynamics guarantees you'll have no humidity related issues with the mics.

.

[chris319]

With all due respect, I don't know if those recommending condensers have listened to the clips, but to my mind custom storage boxes and dessicant seem like overkill and a lot of added effort when dynamics will do just fine.

For cardioid dynamics don't overlook the Sennheiser e835:

Sennheiser USA - dynamic hand held vocal microphone, e 835 - Professional Audio

If you want omni dynamics I might suggest the Shure SM63 and the Audio Technica AT8004:

Shure - Microphones - SM63 Handheld Microphone

Audio-Technica - Microphones, headphones, wireless microphone systems, noise-cancelling headphones & more : AT8004 Omnidirectional Dynamic Microphone

[Mac Hath]

Not sure why these have not been mentioned, but I have heard of a number of international/on-location recordists using DPA 4060 and 4061 omnis, extremely small, often used for lavalier/headset mics, won't necessarily soften high end, but should be clean up there, in any case.

Supposed to be very robust and extremely discreet (if that is of any use). Specifically designed for high humidity environments, and can be rinsed in water if they get dirty/sweaty/etc. These can be placed literally inches from the sound source and still produce a nice clean sound.

They run ~$600 a pair, if I recall.

Mac

[NorseHorse]

Sounds reasonable to me.

To the OP, I'd also check out the Buda Musique label for some world-music material. Not all Indian Classical, but recordings with similar aesthetics.

[Nityananda_SCSM]

Great thanks Norse I'll check them out, I really need to find out some of what is out there that I can emulate and learn from.

Chris, Bishop, Baithak, etc: By the way after looking into dynamic omnis I found this tape-op article on EV's webiste. On page 4 "Under You’re recording to a DAT now? " This man who spent 20something years traveling around India recording traditional village music talks about his mic choices:
"I have a pair of KM 84s, a pair of KM 83s, the MKH20, and a pair of inexpensive [Electro-Voice] RE50s because I find
they’re absolutely well behaved. They’re what I use
whenever I need a spaced pair of omnis, rather than
the KM 83s. In fact, in ‘87 I used only the RE50s in
Bali, and everybody is amazed at the quality of the
recordings. Here I am using a pair of inexpensive
dynamics and the transients aren’t bothered at all.
While this mic has a fairly steep fall off below 100 Hz
and above 13 kHz, it’s perfect for Bali!"
So you guys were right on with that recommendation. I'll definitely be getting a pair.
I wish I could get a MKH20 and pair of KM84s too! Now I'm trying to find the "poor man" equivalents.. (Perhaps the DPA 4061 could replace a MKH20 and something like the MC930, AE5100, Peluso CEMC6, AKG C 480 (1K tho) etc. could replace the KM84s...)


Mac: Very useful post. I am very interested in these little DPA guys now. I don't really need them to be small, that could even be a drawback in some cases, but the humidity specs sound perfect. And apparently they are used for distance stuff too, like micing orchestras and stuff like that (gotta luv GS Search). They're definitly NOT $600 a pair (or I would probably buy some today) they are $1000 a pair including the neccessary XLR adapters/mounts/kit, or $900 a pair just mics. So that's a chunk of change for what may not be a does-everything-I-need pair of mics. But they sound really cool. Would they work micing an enviroment like the picture I posted? Stuck on two side columns or under the picture frames maybe?

And will omni's really work for this? I just keep thinking I want some focus.. Although of course this photo isnt the only type of situation I would be micing..
Oh, also, how would using two DPA 4061s compare to using two EV RE50s or other dynamic omnis?

Definitely will look into them, thanks for the info. BTW could you give some examples of what other " international/on-location recordists" were using them for? (Lapell, stereo pair, etc.?)
THANKS :D
-Chris

BTW Still wondering about how the STO-2's hold up in humid conditions..

[Nityananda_SCSM]

Well I've kind of come to realize that the best mic for me would be the MKH8040. Holds up very well against humidity/heat, small, light, hopefully tough enough (solid brass body, but scarily small), and apparently has a fantastic sound. From some different reviews I've read it compliments harsh material very well.

Sennheiser MKH 8040 Microphone
"Upon using the 8040s with their solid feel, diminutive size, and modularity, I immediately got the feeling they were Schoeps-like. Upon listening, such a comparison became more valid, as the 8040s were smooth, pleasant, and articulated without being harsh.

cymbals avoided any harshness or “pingyness,"

But it basically just sounds good all around. How to set it up with a windscreen/shockmount is a question, but I'm sure that can be figured out.

The problem is that it is $1300 street, which is waaaaay over my budget of $700 a pair. However it would be a good investment and all that, so I am looking for used/bstock mics now.

Do you think I could just use one of these?? How much worse than a stereo pair would that be for me...

Another good option is the DPA 4061s, but omni's wouldn't be as useful in the field for me (crowds around me while I'm trying to capture musicians in front of me.) Plus I can get omni "capsules" for the MKH8000 series (although they're $1000 each, not exactly cheap little caps.) And I will be buying a pair of RE50s regardless becuz of the recommendations of earlier posters.

I'm pretty much looking at getting a single used MKH8040 for now until I can add another in the future. This series is used on feature films and stuff like that, so I'm sure it'll be good enough for me.

So, anybody wanna sell me one (or two) of these for a good price?
And how essential is 2 over 1?

Thanks for alla your help

(P.S. Does anyone think the MKH-40 would be a better choice? I've heard different things, the SoundonSound article about MKH8040 said that it was a bit warmer/more natural than the MKH-40, but some on GS.com have said they prefer the MKH-40 to the new MKH8040. Thoughts?)

[Baithak]

Dear Nityananda : I am happy that you have found third party validation for the "omni" mic idea and that you are going to get a pair for your trip to India.

Re your choice for a "main" pair : I have heard that the Senn condenser mics are just awesome. I myself use Schoeps with the MK41 capsule when I can but ...

I find that most condenser mics are just too sensitive for the harsh audio environment that is India. e.g. two months ago I was recording a violinist pair at a temple and thought it was a pretty good sound live; only on returning home that I realize that a tile cutter working somewhere in the distance had left his audio impression distinctly on the Schoeps recording. The omni because of its lack of reach and because it was closer to the source, came out good and I basically used that one.

Please make sure that you are getting experiences from outdoor use of the 8040 in noisy environments before making a choice.

If it were my money and my rig, I would get the MD 441 pair (built in base and treble tailoring so haven't yet found an environment where there were unusable), the omni pair of dynamics and call it a day as far as mics are concerned
.
Sennheiser Worldwide - MD 441-U

Good luck with your trip,
Baithak

[Nityananda_SCSM]

Hmmmmmmmm..............

[mathieujm]

Originally Posted by Nityananda_SCSM

Were the only problems you had low freq rumbling that you removed later? How easy was it?

Yes it was some rumble that can be heard only in the very quiet passages. It was impossible to remove this completely without removing to much music. I had to filter under 150hz and did that only when it was necessary.
But at this time I didn't use any dissecant, so...

JMM

[chris319]

You'd be a damn fool to lug around a $1,200 mic (or a $2,400 pair) in this kind of environment where it could become damaged, lost or even stolen. As I have said time and time again in this thread, you're recording male voices and finger cymbals in a noisy environment. You're not recording the London Philharmonic in a quiet auditorium. IMO some of the solutions I've seen are overkill given the type of material you are planning to record.

Have you given any thought to how you would mount a pair of mics in a stereo configuration? From the looks of your picture you're going to get jostled around. Maybe you should be thinking along the lines of one of these to get a stereo recording in a hostile environment:

Sennheiser MKE44P Stereo Microphone | Full Compass

Beyerdynamic MCE72 Stereo X-Y Condenser Microphone | Full Compass

Beyerdynamic MCE82 Stereo XY Microphone, Two Condenser Capsules Back Electret with Cardioid Polar Pattern | Full Compass

Shure VP88 Stereo Condenser Microphone | Full Compass

Tascam TM STPRO Mic X/Y Stereo Bal Out | Full Compass

Just make sure there is a balanced output for each channel, and bring along some dynamics to back yourself up.

Condenser mics are not going to tame the sound of finger cymbals but you can deal with that in post.

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by Nityananda_SCSM

Plus I can get omni "capsules" for the MKH8000 series (although they're $1000 each, not exactly cheap little caps.

Hi! Don't know which mic that would be best for your use but those "capsules" are actually the whole mic assembly with amplifier and all. This means it can not really be compared to other capsules which only contains the actual transducer.

Good luck in your search. The MKH8040 is cheaper and smaller and would IMO be the choise before MKH40 if you go that route.


/Peter

[Nityananda_SCSM]

Hey guys, thanks for the posts.

Chris: Being a damn fool never stopped me from doing 95% of the other things I've done in my life, but yeah you are right. I'm not going to be getting a stereo pair of those puppies unless somebody sells me them for $450 a pop or something. Although I see them selling for around $700 used so they're not insanely expensive..
I already have a decent stereo condenser mic, the AT825. I bought it for $169 used on ebay, and it's served me well. I don't have much money in the budget for more stereo mics..

mathieujm: That sounds like something that would happen to me. And I hate those situations where you are deciding what to sacrifice, sound quality or living with annoying sounds... I need a safer route (thats for the info!)

Baithak gave some really good advice a few posts back:
"I find that most condenser mics are just too sensitive for the harsh audio environment that is India. e.g. two months ago I was recording a violinist pair at a temple and thought it was a pretty good sound live; only on returning home that I realize that a tile cutter working somewhere in the distance had left his audio impression distinctly on the Schoeps recording. The omni because of its lack of reach and because it was closer to the source, came out good and I basically used that one. "

This is legit. Even though I might want to try to stretch the budget to get the perfect mic and get the MKH series, I ALWAYS have undesirable noises somewhere in the background. So if I can get a comparable, very high quality sound from a tougher mic that won't pick up things going on nextdoor, that would be a smarter choice for me. I think I still want to get a single high quality condenser though, so I can set it up as a backup sometimes compare it to my dynamics choice, so I can learn when it works and when it doesn't!

The MD 441 gets great reviews, buuut... Hypercardiod doesn't sound like my cup of tea, I think I will need a wider pattern. And I would want it in black or brown (looking for MD 451 Blackfires as we speak.)
However I think a MD 441 would be a perfect mic for my vocalist, I just don't know if I want two as my stereo pair, maybe a single MD 441 for my vocalist with two PR 30s for my stereo pair?

How does the MD 421 compare to the MD 441 for my application?
And what's a good (dynamic cardiod) mic alternative to the MD 441?
How would you compare the Heil Sound PR 30 to the MD 441 ??


Thaanks...

[chris319]

I already have a decent stereo condenser mic, the AT825.

So why don't you use it, or at least bring it? At first glance it appears to have balanced outputs so that's not an issue.

In a previous post you made it sound as if economics was going to drive the decision to record in mono or stereo, effectively the tail wagging the dog.

You didn't answer my question about how you are going to physically mount your mics, which is why I was suggesting stereo mics to begin with.

[NorseHorse]

Ah ha, here's what I'm looking for. The Buda Musique "Music of the World" series of records. Lots of them are on-site recordings. These are a sort of "benchmark", but not the high-water mark. Many of the recordings were made by the ethnographers (not professional recordists), but many of them still sound good. Gives you a great smattering of what is possible in live settings, even in live religious/ritual ceremonies.

Shoot for this or better.

Musique du monde | Buda Musique

[Nityananda_SCSM]

This one is interesting..
I'll need to keep exploring, lots of recordings.

Thanks Norse, Good to have some benchmark recordings, although I'll keep looking for really well done stuff that I can emulate more.
But these are more realistic examples of what I may be able to achieve in the near future. And it will help me have to confidence to share recordings, sometimes it's hard for me to tell if what I am recording is "acceptable quality" for general people to listen to (maybe not if they were buying it from Barnes and Nobles, but I can still hand out CDs and Links and feel OK about it.)


Cool. Well I am about to put my whole OMG-what-mics-am-I-gonna-buy-I'm-freaking-out thing on hold and go to AES up in New York (I'm in Atlanta right now, so why not?) If anyone wants to meet with me and discuss anything/hear anything in person I'm game. PM on gearslutz and I'll give you my cell phone number.


When I'm in the field running around I'll be mounting my mics on a boom pole within a Rode Blimp, with a RE50 available for interviews. I can use a stereo mount if necessary but obviously a single boom pole will be easier to handle. I just was wondering about buying maybe a MD 441 for vocal, two PR 30s (or MD 421s) for a stereo pair, and a single MKH40 or MKH8040 as a center mic to blend in as I want later, and to just get the feel for how much background noise it picks up, the pros and cons of dynamics/condensers, etc. Practical experience will teach me better than you guys trying to help me to understand things you learned through experience yourselves.

See Y'all in NYC!

[chris319]

I just was wondering about buying maybe a MD 441 for vocal, two PR 30s (or MD 421s) for a stereo pair, and a single MKH40 or MKH8040 as a center mic to blend in as I want later, and to just get the feel for how much background noise it picks up, the pros and cons of dynamics/condensers, etc.

Good luck fitting all of that on the end of your boom pole and hooking it up to your Fostex recorder without a mixer.

Practical experience will teach me better than you guys trying to help me to understand things you learned through experience yourselves.

That's a fine thank-you to those of us who have thought your situation over carefully and advised you. I think some of us here have thought more about the practical aspects of what you're trying to do than you have. Now if you screw it up we can all say we told you so.