Another orchestra recording...Your feedback welcome

[Gerax]

Hello guys

I'm planning for an upcoming gig. Orchestra recording for the 3rd Beethoven symphony with a local talented orchestra.
Room is fine (Local theater in Modena) and I'm reviewing the gear I have at my disposal. I'd like some inputs form you.

We'd like to rent some things, for the rest it's our own gear.

Orchestra is not real large, a bit scaled down, so I'd like to go with a main ORTF pair and outriggers and as much as 12 spots on various sections (16 tracks total)
I'd go with a Schoeps CMC5/MK4 pair for the main ORTF and a pair of KM184 for the outriggers.
I have a variety of mics for spots ranging from high quality to budget (Neumann, AKG, AT, Rode, B.L.U.E). My question is, can I cheap out a bit on spots?
Also, the pres I have are 1 Focusrite ISA428 with AD option, 2x SPL Goldmike, 1 Focusrite Octopre with AD option. I can also rent a Millennia HV3d (8 channel) for a reasonable price. Additional converters are an RME ADI8AE.
Recorders are my Mackie SDR2496 (which I go digitally into, bypassing its converters), and a PTMP/Lightbridge combo with my Dell XPS Laptop.
The system has proven to be rocksolid so far. Both recorders are fed the same ADAT signal from the AD cards in the pres.
Its' not a live gig, just a closed session for a CD project.

Your opinions and feedback are welcome

L.G.

[rumleymusic]

The first think you probably need to think about is whether or not you really need that many spot mics. Under many circumstances the front line will be fine. If the sections are small, like Bass, they might benefit from a spot, the timpani usually needs some clarity, so one or two there might not be a bad idea. Other than that, Beethoven usually works itself out, especially the 3rd.

[Gerax]

Thank you for your reply.

The main reason I'm thinking about using that number of spot mics is that it's the first time I'm working with this orchestra and producer, so I guess I want to have almost everything covered, just in case I need to highlight a section in a certain passage (later, when editing and mixing); and also because even though I usually get the sound 90% from my main pair I like the focus that well placed and phased spot mics can add to the picture. I've never recorded in that room, I've been told it's fine, but I'd like to be prepared. I know it's more time consuming a setup and not as "purist" as some like to record classical music, but I've found that lately, if they don't see spot mics they start asking...because with all the editing possibilities offered by DAWs (and producers now know them...) multitracking and mixing is becoming standard practice in classical too...I may not use them...but I prefer to have them recorded.

[mpdonahue]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

The first think you probably need to think about is whether or not you really need that many spot mics. Under many circumstances the front line will be fine. If the sections are small, like Bass, they might benefit from a spot, the timpani usually needs some clarity, so one or two there might not be a bad idea. Other than that, Beethoven usually works itself out, especially the 3rd.

Just playing the devils advocate for a moment....
Why if you have the opportunity and ability to record more than a main pair would you not print spot mics? I know that there is this whole contingent of people that have an obsession for making 2 mic recordings, but the reality is that even under the best of circumstances most recordings will benefit from the judicious application of a spot mic or two. Just because you print the mic to the multitrack doesn't mean that you have to use it.
Finally, there is no quicker way to loose an account than to tell the producer that you chose to not put out string spots because LvB balances the music on the page. Even the top tier orchestras have balance problems that can be easily be remedied from (Wow, am I repeating myself....) the judicious application of a spot mic or two. When the music director asks for a balance change, it is the production team's job to give it to them.
I'm not saying that we should go out and start making DG 4D style recordings, but there is a happy medium between the 2 extremes.

As always, YMMV.
all the best,
-mark

[Remoteness]

Thumbs up Mark; I'm with you on this one! thumbsup

[boojum]

I am with Mark, too, on this. The hair-pulling and teeth-gnashing comes when we have to decide on what is a "happy medium" and as Mark has suggested, YMMV.

I like the purist approach of an ORTF, or similar, with maybe flankers, but would surely have as many spot tracks as I could record, "just in case." Excellent and wise post.

[rumleymusic]

I never suggested spotting is inherently bad, I did advocate spotting weak sections with out question, and I will always use more than the main pair for an orchestra unless forced. Though (and I'm not accusing you of this, by your post you seem to know what you are doing) just to throw everything you have at every little section in an orchestra with the idea trying to create a realistic mix in post usually does more harm than good, expecially in the wrong hands. If you want to do it for the sake of possible unforseen weaknesses in the acoustics, great. Though I wouldn't stress over renting new equipment, or using inferior mics, for the sake of additional tracks.

Personally, I would try to do a walkthrough of an unfamiliar hall before the recording to see what you are dealing with.

[Gerax]

Wait a minute, I'm not saying that the sound will come from the mix of spot mics: I've been forced to do that once (for an opera recording where I couldn't put anything upper than the orchestra pit...) and it's like nails on a chalkboard...I know that far too well.
I've always relied on the main pair to get the sound, but I found that for convenience sake (and for security purposes) spots are handy. I multitrack, so I may not use them later...or mix some subtly in to add some focus.
My original question was: being that the budget alloted for this recording is reasonable, but not too high, is it feasible to save a bit on spot mics while the mains are up to snuff?

As always, thanx everybody for your input.

[rumleymusic]

Wait a minute, I'm not saying that the sound will come from the mix of spot mics

I know, thats why I didn't aim this at you. I was making a generalization because I first misunderstood what your approach was. Sorry.

I think it is okay to use less expensive mics if they are in the right place. For example, I have found that Rode's and brass are never a winning combination. The main pair does tend to take over the "sound" of the recording from what I have experienced.

[sonare]

First things first-- this is an early Beethoven symphony. How many strings? Surely the winds aren't doubled-- or are they? And what is the room really like? (more info than "fine" needed)

Finally-- since you are not using omnis for mains-- why aren't the flankers?

Rich

[Gerax]

OK

It's 6 1st violins, 6 2nd violins, 4 violas, 4 celli, 1 or 2 basses.
Winds are 2 flutes, 2 Oboes, 2 Clarinets, 2 basson.
Brass are 3 horns, 2 trumpets.
Percussion is just timpani.

As I stated above I don't know the room; hopefully I'll be able to check that out this weekend. Usually Italian theaters don't sound that bad...

I'm not using omnis for the mains because ORTF is usually done with cardioids (I guess that's doable with omnis too, but I've never tried that). I was wondering if flanks with cardioids would be that much of a difference. I appreciate some input on this.

Thanx everybody, this is getting interesting thumbsup

[sonare]

This is looking better all the time! For this size ensemble I would use omni flankers (and they are usually down 6 or 9dB in the mix). Spots on the winds and maybe timps. Beyond that I would not go unless the producer requests it.

I would still use an omni pair for mains unless the ORTF sounded better-- and here is where lots of extra tracks can be great-- run both!

If the hall is good I would aim a rear-looking ORTF pair back into the hall from perhaps 25 ft behind the mains. If this does not sound good then perhaps A-B omnis. Keep everything referenced to the smae "left" side as the mains.

Mark D has more experience with all this-- perhaps he can chime in?

Rich

[Gerax]

Originally Posted by sonare

This is looking better all the time! For this size ensemble I would use omni flankers (and they are usually down 6 or 9dB in the mix). Spots on the winds and maybe timps. Beyond that I would not go unless the producer requests it.

I would still use an omni pair for mains unless the ORTF sounded better-- and here is where lots of extra tracks can be great-- run both!

If the hall is good I would aim a rear-looking ORTF pair back into the hall from perhaps 25 ft behind the mains. If this does not sound good then perhaps A-B omnis. Keep everything referenced to the smae "left" side as the mains.

Mark D has more experience with all this-- perhaps he can chime in?

Rich

Good info Rich, I particulary like the rear looking ORTF pair...I hope I'll have the time to set that up as we'll be in a really tight spot: the hall will be available for just one day...setup included...but I'l eventually look into that.
I like to spot strings too, so that when I add them that tiny bit in the mix I get a bit more of that "rosin" feel...if you know what I mean...

[sonare]

Originally Posted by Gerax

I like to spot strings too, so that when I add them that tiny bit in the mix I get a bit more of that "rosin" feel...if you know what I mean...

It just occurred to me that this is really a chamber orchestra. With 3 stands of firsts and 3 of seconds there needs to be a conversation about seating them left and right. I would forget the flankers and use omnis spaced perhaps 40cm at a height of 2.75 meters immediately behind the conductor. ORTF perhaps a meter further away but there goes the spaciousness unless hall mics give it to you.

The temptation to use lots of gear to appear more professional will be strong but RESIST! Let your ears be your guide.

Rich

[RobAnderson]

'm not using omnis for the mains because ORTF is usually done with cardioids (I guess that's doable with omnis too, but I've never tried that). I was wondering if flanks with cardioids would be that much of a difference. I appreciate some input on this.

You can set up Omni's in an ORTF-ish sort of way, but it will not give you the same imaging as with cardioids. When the omni's are that close, the image will become very center heavy - almost mono. When used in conjunction with widely spaced flanks, it can work and is OK if you want a really solid, but slightly spread center image (e.g. in the case of vocal soloists) with the color and ambience of omni's, but as a standalone pair it will not.

To me, whether or not you will need flanks depends on how the orchestra is set up. If they are not spread out particularly wide, then a single main AB pair as Rich suggests should be sufficient, or even a Decca-Tree sort of arrangement might work well. If they are spread too wide for just a single main pair to cover, then add a pair of flanks. Might not be a bad idea to have four of the same kind of omni available for the mains - it would open up all of these possibilities for you.

Whatever the case, use omni's if you can for the mains - you will still love yourself in the morning. Even if you use decide to use ORTF on the mains, use omni's on flanks - the orchestra color you can achieve with omni's is something a cardioid just cannot do. Of course, if the room is not so good, then you may have to resort to using cardioids.

As far as spot mic's, if you have the tracks and the time, set up spot mic's too. You can always not use them and they might save your *backside*, so why not? Have a good gig.

[pkautzsch]

This seems to BEG for spaced omnis as a main pair.

Plus - if needed - cardioid flanks
Plus a pair or threesome for winds&brass (threesome will probably have the center mic point to the timpany anyway)
Plus section spots to taste.

I think the Eroica has three parts not most typical of classical symphony literature: the fugue in the march, the "quasi string quartet" in the finale, and some french horn parts. These "specials" need to be covered by the setup.

[Gerax]

Thanx for the good info guys.

I kind of need a surefire set up for this gig, as this production can be a returning client. Don't feel comfortable experimenting on a "first date"...if you get me...

I tried spaced omnis once and (even though I probably think it was my fault in the positioning) I had the impression of a hollow center (I understand that's the reason for the center fill...or the Decca Tree configuration); being that I'll be quite in a tight time frame I must admit that I'll almost certainly set up a tried and true ORTF as my main, and time permitting, experiment with spaced omnis.

Spotting in my idea would be on all sections, just to have everything covered, time being a key factor in that too.

Any comments about the pres I have at hand? I can get my hands on an HV3D, and eventually rely on the slightly more colored pres (Goldmike and ISA428) for spots. What do you think?

As always, thanx and thumbsup

[TonyF]

Where does the idea come from that the more microphones you have the better? I think it is spurious for live orchestral classical music and you end up with an anonymous 'in your face' scratchy phoney sound with no depth, and little helpful coherent information below 75Hz to convey the weight and dynamics of a real orchestra. Then you'll probably end up with a layer of digital reverb trying to push the sound back into an acoustic. The end result will sound characterless, lacking dynamics, and that all pervading waft of cheap after-shave digital reverb finally writes it all off for any listener accustomed to what an orchestra sounds like live.

Why make recordings as bad as everyone else's? Keep it simple, and you'll also make friends with a lot of orchestral players who do not enjoy a KM184, stand and cable in each of their faces while they are trying to play. Classical musicians make a sound which is calculated to project 10m, 20m, 30m into an audience - if you capture it from too close it sounds horrible - just listening to solos of those close mics on their own: yuk.

You'll also probably make friends with the conductor if you use fewer mics, for at least two good reasons. First if he/she sees a lot of microphones he/she will suspect (correctly) that you'll be messing after the event with his/her careful balance. Second if the stage is full of stands and cables it is a pain in the neck for the players and especially the conductor to get to/from their place if they are walking through the string section.

You are there to eavesdrop on a real live musical event and to capture it as faithfully as you can - not to create something unrelated out of table scraps!

[MBishopSFX]

Originally Posted by Gerax

EDITED

Orchestra is not real large, a bit scaled down, so I'd like to go with a main ORTF pair and outriggers and as much as 12 spots on various sections (16 tracks total)
I'd go with a Schoeps CMC5/MK4 pair for the main ORTF and a pair of KM184 for the outriggers.
I have a variety of mics for spots ranging from high quality to budget (Neumann, AKG, AT, Rode, B.L.U.E). My question is, can I cheap out a bit on spots?
Also, the pres I have are 1 Focusrite ISA428 with AD option, 2x SPL Goldmike, 1 Focusrite Octopre with AD option. I can also rent a Millennia HV3d (8 channel) for a reasonable price. Additional converters are an RME ADI8AE.

First of all, I echo Tony's comments and suggestions, although if this isn't really a fully pro orchestra (in a maybe not-great hall) you may need to help out some simple balance issues by at least having a pair of omnis for the winds. Please avoid the temptation to mic everything that moves. That mostly serves to just flatten-out the orchestra sound.

Secondly, I suggest using the MK-21 capsules rather than the MK4s for the center. Use a "wide" ORTF setup - at least 10.5 inches between capsules. You'll still achieve great center imaging but with much better low-end response than by using cardioids there. And why screw-up the sound of the Schoeps center pair by using dissimilar outriggers? Go with Schoeps MK-2 or 2H omnis for the outriggers. They'll compliment your center pair much better. Schoeps omnis for any possible fill mics will also mix in much better than a bunch of cardioids if you must go that route.

Also, go with the HV3Ds for preamps. Let the musicians provide the "color."

.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by MBishopSFX

Secondly, I suggest using the MK-21 capsules rather than the MK4s for the center. Use a "wide" ORTF setup - at least 10.5 inches between capsules. You'll still achieve great center imaging but with much better low-end response than by using cardioids there.

Would you stick to 110 degrees or go 120 as Schoeps suggests for the Mk21? Or perhaps (gasp) let one's ears be the guide?

Rich

[rumleymusic]

First of all, I echo Tony's comments and suggestions

2 more on the less is usually more team, one is Michael Bishop...just saying

Or perhaps (gasp) let one's ears be the guide?

Just a a good pilot should be able to fly without being able to see the terrain, a good engineer should be able to record without having to monitor the sound. I am not advocating the practice of recording deaf. Just that when you are not able to completely rely on your senses, you better have a good knowledge and technique. I also cant think of one instance in a live recording where I got a second chance to modify my mic placement. Sometimes you only get one shot at it, and that shot had better be well informed.

[RobAnderson]

I think the OP said this was a recording session, not a live gig, so there should be some ability to tweak placement if something is off. Sure you can fly blind, but why do it if you don't have to?

Less IS more, but the OP was talking about spotting sections, not every individual instrument. Your final sound could be nothing but mains if it works, but often it is 85% mains with a little bit of spots mixed in. I can't see not having spots on the winds and timpani at the very least. It is far easier to have the mic's in place before the musicians arrive (if possible) than to be crawling through the orchestra trying to run cables after the fact.

Most of the conductors I have worked with have never been upset to have some additional options at the mix/edit stage. It is due diligence as far as I am concerned.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

Just a a good pilot should be able to fly without being able to see the terrain, a good engineer should be able to record without having to monitor the sound. I am not advocating the practice of recording deaf. Just that when you are not able to completely rely on your senses, you better have a good knowledge and technique. I also cant think of one instance in a live recording where I got a second chance to modify my mic placement. Sometimes you only get one shot at it, and that shot had better be well informed.

As an instrument flight instructor (CFII) I find this analogy interesting at best. Obviously once a concert starts you are stuck-- for better or worse-- underlining the need to get setup early and make adjustments as the players are warming up.

But this entire thread was started by someone who has (had?) sessions to do. So we are back at the uncontested notion that experience does come in handy.

Rich

[chadster]

My most successfully consistent orchestra recording setup, FWIW:


Modified Decca Tree: 2 spaced omnis (approx 2 meters apart) with a cardioid ORTF pair in the center (approx 1.5 meters in front of the omnis)

Spot mic's on percussion (cardioid), bass section (omni boundary on the floor near the principal), solos (if applicable-cardioid), french horns (from behind, at least 4 feet away if possible). I sometimes hang another ORTF or XY pair in front of the woodwind section.

The Modified Decca Tree gives a very nice open sound, with the ORTF in the middle helping to focus the center without losing the stereo image. Spot mics are mixed in as little as possible, and are mostly there to add bottom end (in the bass section) and help reinforce stereo placement and intelligibility (in the percussion, woodwind, horn, and solo mic's). If there's a soloist (obviously not in Beethoven 3) it should be placed in the center of the stereo image, not slightly offset as they are on stage. Most of this information comes from the mouth of John Eargle himself.

Another option for the main ORTF is to use a pair of ribbon mic's in either ORTF or Blumlein configuration. It's the most beautiful string sound I've ever heard.

As far as the specific subject of this thread, I'd say to mic the hell out of everything just in case. It's a lot easier to push a fader down during mixing than it is to get the orchestra back into the hall for another session.

For specific mic's and pre's, use the best you've got. It's all secondary to placement anyway.


BTW: Check out this peeing monkey: dfegad

[Roland]

I'm not going to add much in here as you already have some great comments from Mark, Tony and Michael, three of the world's orchestral recording heavyweights, (I would (as Michael suggested) look at the possibility of the Mk21 capsules as they have more low end, possibly lay your hands on a couple of Omni's for outriggers to further enhance the low end pick up.

As the symphony is in E flat major, it doesn't have particularly that much "bottom end" in comparison with other Beethoven works and the last thing you want is for it to end up sounding a little lightweight or "thin". As for spots, record them or not, that's your choice, however, with the number of strings you have I can't see you needing them.

For an example, see my post MS recording with 2 track? it's sample from a live recording I did of Eroica a few years back, with just a stereo pair.

Regards



Roland

[Roland]

It's post no:17 for any who are interested.

Regards


Roland

[Gerax]

OK guys, thanx so far for your feedback. A little update.

The mic situation has settled like this: ORTF as main pair with Schoeps CMC5/MK21. Outriggers Schoeps CMC5/MK2S. For spots we have 3 pairs of KM184 that we'd use on string sections. Other spots will be AKG414 B-ULS on percussion, Blue Baby Bottle on Cbass, AT4040s on winds and horns. Millennia HV3D, ISA428 and a pair of GoldMikes as pres. Conversion will be RME ADI8DS and the ISA428 AD card, straight into PT and Mackie SDR2496 as a backup.

Here is a link of the venue we'll be recording in: http://www.teatrocomunalemodena.it/t...tro-visita.asp

You can take a virtual tour of the various rooms and see what is looks like.

As always, your feedback is wellcome.

[Gerax]

A bit of update right after the gig (yesterday night).

It all went well. It's been a bit of a rush (strange, isn't it...) as the orchestra didn't want to spend too much energy in rehearsals and recording additional material, plus theater timings were very strict, and we had very little time to unload, set up, do line checks and test everything was working and sounding right.
In the end we went with a Schoeps CMC6 MK21 (ORTF) and MK2S (outriggers) all on Manfrotto stands 4m high, plus as many as 12 spot mics (Neumann, AT, Blue, AKG, Rode) that we'll decide to mix in as needed. Front end was Millennia HV3D (for mains and strings) and ISA428/Goldmike (for the rest). The theater was fairly dead sounding, further deadened by the packed crowd... (not bad for a monday evening...).
Sound was quite good, altough I wish I had more space in front of the orchestra to pull the mains 2m back: unfortunately there was a production setting up that occupied about half the stage, so the orcestra had to set up almost on the stage's lip...
Recording went without a hitch once we figured out all the lines and gains.

I'll post pics later (when I'll have recovered from the strain of these last days of work, where the orchestra has been just the last...), and upload some samples once my partner will be finished with editing and I'll mix some.

Thanx everybody for the suggestions.

[Gerax]

Here are some pics...just in case you mind...

http://www.acquariorecording.it/images/DSC00566.jpg

http://www.acquariorecording.it/images/DSC00569.jpg

http://www.acquariorecording.it/images/DSC00570.jpg

http://www.acquariorecording.it/images/DSC00571.jpg

http://www.acquariorecording.it/imag...s/DSC00572.jpg

http://www.acquariorecording.it/imag...s/DSC00575.jpg

http://www.acquariorecording.it/imag...s/DSC00576.jpg

http://www.acquariorecording.it/images/Spira Mirabilis/DSC00582.jpg

http://www.acquariorecording.it/imag...s/DSC00564.jpg

[Gerax]

And here's a sample from the first movement, I hope you have some feedback:

http://www.acquariorecording.it/Down...es/Sample1.wav