Alesis HD24 Question

[TapeDub]

Good evening all Remote Slutz.
I've used rental HD24's (going analogue in & out) several times with great success but I have an upcoming project for which I would like to have another 'digital' system running too.

The rig will be... live signals into a Yamaha LS9 32 with 2x MY16-AT Mini-YGDAI Cards giving 32 Direct Outputs of 48kHz 24bit ADAT Optical out into 2x HD24's.

The question is... when tracks are armed and/or recording on the HD24's, will they pass the ADAT Optical input signal straight through to their ADAT Optical outputs?
Ideally I'd like to feed the 32 ADAT Optical inputs of an M-Audio ProFire Lightbridge (fronting Logic Studio on a MacBook) from the ADAT Optical outputs of the HD24's and record on both systems simultaneously.

I'm aware of the clocking issues and plan on renting a good clock with a few outputs on BNC to sync all to, rather than daisy chain slave clocking through Lightpipe.

Hope all of that makes sense.
Thanks for your time.

Any thoughts?

[macleod]

that will work fine.

If i were you i would clock everything to the LS9. for some reason i never like cheap digital boards running off external clocks.

K

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by macleod

that will work fine.

If i were you i would clock everything to the LS9. for some reason i never like cheap digital boards running off external clocks.

K

That's interesting; I'm the complete opposite.
I would rather use an external clock when using those less expensive digital desks.
They seem to sound much better with a killer clock.

[TapeDub]

Thanks for the feedback guys. A long time ago I owned an O2R and was shocked at the improvement in the sound when I clocked it to my (first ProTools plunge) USD. The bass end tightened up so much and imaging was much more defined. That was a USD... by today's standard, a dog of a clock.

[therecordinghous]

they will pass audio to both the adat out and analog out at the same time. if you hit "all input" signal will pass. you dont have to have the tracks record enabled. however, it is recommended if you want to record to the HD24 too.


i use this exact setup on a regular basis with great results. i do, however, clock everything to an apogee big ben. it makes your life MUCH easier.

[GGreen]

Ok bit of a thread hijack...

But whilst we have HD24 savvy people thinking about these things.....

Do any of you guys have a full proof method of getting audio ONTO an HD24 drive.

Ive tried endless FST connect attempts and also used the beta and none beta of HDtools the 3rd party one and whilst the software seemingly puts the audio and will even play back the audio from the drive using the beta versions player system when I put the drive back into the HD24 its as if I had not put the audio on.

As for FST connect that just errors out with samplerate mismatch errors even when everything is exactly as it should be.

I know operator error is gonna be blamed but honestly im not an idiot.

I am just concluding that basically these machines are a clusterf**k when used in any other way than just a recorder.

Any hints/tips hugely appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Gareth

[TapeDub]

Originally Posted by therecordinghous

i use this exact setup on a regular basis with great results. i do, however, clock everything to an apogee big ben. it makes your life MUCH easier.

Great. Thanks therecordinghous. Do you use a ProFire Lightbridge too?
Good to hear that the components of this proposed rig play nice with each other.
I've planned to hire a Big Ben.
I read somewhere that even with the HD24's synced together using an ADAT Sync Lead that the 2nd or Slave machine won't go into 'Record' when the Master machine is put into Record... you have to manually press Play+Record on the Slave machine too?

This project may have to be Synced to Timecode too. Aghhhhh!
I have an old MTPAV somewhere which I may use to generate MTC for both the HD24's and Logic. Just have to remember the ups and downs of the MTPAV's 'Free Run' settings from days of old.

[Murton]

You have to MIDI synch the two HD24's together for Master/Slave record operation iirc Wordclock synch is unrelated.

[TapeDub]

Originally Posted by TapeDub

Just have to remember the ups and downs of the MTPAV's 'Free Run' settings from days of old.

That should have been 'Freewheel'... it's been a while since I pulled my hair out in front of that little green screen.

BTW does anyone know if the MTPAV will stay in Freewheel if Code drops out permanently?
If I remember correctly it has a range of 4 to 32 frames for Freewheel.
Does it then shout STOP to all machines receiving MTC or just keep rolling?

[TapeDub]

Originally Posted by Murton

You have to MIDI synch the two HD24's together for Master/Slave record operation iirc Wordclock synch is unrelated.

MIDI Synch? Connect MIDI Out on Master to MIDI in on Slave to send MMC and MTC?
I thought the ADAT Sync protocol looked after Word Clock, Time Code and Control Data (Machine Control)?

[TapeDub]

Originally Posted by TapeDub

I thought the ADAT Sync protocol looked after Word Clock, Time Code and Control Data (Machine Control)?

Anyone?

[LX3]

When you slave two HD24s together, you press record on the master, and the slave drops in as well. You just have to make sure you've pre-recorded a little on the slave, so that when it attempts to locate to the position of the master, it has some song there to locate to.

You can put the slave into record on its own - the locking together only operates in one direction.

As for MTC and such like over the ADAT sync port and/or MIDI ports, there are very few devices that work with the HD24... and all of them (okay, both of them) are out of production.

Trying to get the HD24 to sync to generic MTC and MMC is an excercise in futility. You will find numerous threads on the HD24 user group where people have tried for weeks and given up.

As I said in another thread, the only real use of the ADAT sync port is to sync one HD24 to another... and in that application it works well. But when I need to lock to external timecode, I use something other than the HD24. Remember that the files you get out of the HD24 aren't timestamped anyway.

It's amazing how few live music productions these days truly need timestamped audio. They say they do, but when it comes to it they often end up syncing the audio by eye/ear, because they're in the middle of an edit and have effectively thrown away any timecode reference.

[LX3]

Originally Posted by TapeDub

MIDI Synch? Connect MIDI Out on Master to MIDI in on Slave to send MMC and MTC?
I thought the ADAT Sync protocol looked after Word Clock, Time Code and Control Data (Machine Control)?

You're exactly right. The ADAT sync cable is just a convenient way of carrying timecode, clock and machine control.

I don't think the MIDI ports on an HD24 are ever used for much. By all accounts they're a bit unreliable.

[TapeDub]

Originally Posted by LX3

You're exactly right. The ADAT sync cable is just a convenient way of carrying timecode, clock and machine control.

I don't think the MIDI ports on an HD24 are ever used for much. By all accounts they're a bit unreliable.

Great! Thanks for your time and advice Paul.

Have you ever tried using an MTPAV to receive SMPTE and send it to the HD24 down the MTPAV's ADAT Sync Out?

[LX3]

I can't say I have... but I believe it works (assuming this is the older Midi Time Piece AV, which is the only box other than the BRC... and possible an old Cooper box which I don't remember the name of... that is known to work with the HD24).

I think you may find things work best with 30fps timecode only - but I'm working from memory of other people's experiences rather than my own here.

You still have the problem of course that if you intend to take the audio off the HD24 and mix in a DAW, the timecode won't come across, but you can always do a multitrack bounce into something. I've actually done that in the past... rather than attempting to lock to timecode at record time, I've written smpte to a spare track on the HD24, then bounced to something else (e.g. ProTools) that will lock to the code coming off the HD24... hey presto, you have timecoded audio.

[TapeDub]

Originally Posted by LX3

I can't say I have... but I believe it works (assuming this is the older Midi Time Piece AV, which is the only box other than the BRC... and possible an old Cooper box which I don't remember the name of... that is known to work with the HD24).

I think you may find things work best with 30fps timecode only - but I'm working from memory of other people's experiences rather than my own here.

You still have the problem of course that if you intend to take the audio off the HD24 and mix in a DAW, the timecode won't come across, but you can always do a multitrack bounce into something. I've actually done that in the past... rather than attempting to lock to timecode at record time, I've written smpte to a spare track on the HD24, then bounced to something else (e.g. ProTools) that will lock to the code coming off the HD24... hey presto, you have timecoded audio.

Excellent. Thanks again Paul.

Cheers,

Shane

[Rolff]

This should do the trick:
HD24tools
They claim it can be done on the site and I have heard great things about this company.
Even though you say you have tried it (I think I understood that) it takes lots of patience!
Rolff

Originally Posted by gfx

Ok bit of a thread hijack...

But whilst we have HD24 savvy people thinking about these things.....

Do any of you guys have a full proof method of getting audio ONTO an HD24 drive.

Ive tried endless FST connect attempts and also used the beta and none beta of HDtools the 3rd party one and whilst the software seemingly puts the audio and will even play back the audio from the drive using the beta versions player system when I put the drive back into the HD24 its as if I had not put the audio on.

As for FST connect that just errors out with samplerate mismatch errors even when everything is exactly as it should be.

I know operator error is gonna be blamed but honestly im not an idiot.

I am just concluding that basically these machines are a clusterf**k when used in any other way than just a recorder.

Any hints/tips hugely appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Gareth

[synthoid]

Originally Posted by gfx

Do any of you guys have a full proof method of getting audio ONTO an HD24 drive.

I upload audio onto the HD24 regularly, and the most reliable thing I've found is Alesis' own FST/Connect software. Make sure that it's updated to 1.01. I use it from a Mac, and as of OS 10.5, the software became really unreliable and unstable. It crashes a lot when I try to upload stuff with it.

I found a couple things to help out. One is to always upload all 24 tracks (or whatever the # tracks of the song is) into a freshly created song, rather than individual tracks into an existing song. Another thing I've found is that if you change upload directories (where the audio files are located on the computer), the software will often crash during the subsequent transfer. So I go through a ritual where I change directory to where I want to do the transfer, then quit the software, then restart it and go ahead with the transfer.

Good luck, it's rather maddening. So far I've managed to get stuff uploaded at the end of the day, but sometimes when a show is coming up fast and you run into these problems it's pretty nerve-wracking.

-synthoid

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by synthoid

I upload audio onto the HD24 regularly, and the most reliable thing I've found is Alesis' own FST/Connect software. Make sure that it's updated to 1.01. I use it from a Mac, and as of OS 10.5, the software became really unreliable and unstable. It crashes a lot when I try to upload stuff with it.

I found a couple things to help out. One is to always upload all 24 tracks (or whatever the # tracks of the song is) into a freshly created song, rather than individual tracks into an existing song. Another thing I've found is that if you change upload directories (where the audio files are located on the computer), the software will often crash during the subsequent transfer. So I go through a ritual where I change directory to where I want to do the transfer, then quit the software, then restart it and go ahead with the transfer.

Good luck, it's rather maddening. So far I've managed to get stuff uploaded at the end of the day, but sometimes when a show is coming up fast and you run into these problems it's pretty nerve-wracking.

-synthoid

I have never had a problem EXCEPT when the power from the rack the caddy was plugged into was having a ground loop with the computer I was running the xfer software from. I straightened that out and never had another problem.
Once you change systems, OS's, you incur problems, lots of places don't change once the stuff is in and stable.

[GGreen]

Synthoid :

Hmmz 10.5 could be the problem here....

Didnt think of that.

I will try to find a machine with 10.4.x or something slightly older on it to test.

Good thinking batman thank you. I will also try the other suggestions you mention.

Rollf : Unfortunately for me I still have troubles with that.

Im beginning to think me and HD24's are not meant to be bedfellows.

Appreciate the answer though.

Ta muchly.

Gareth

[timothyclee]

Anyone know the best way to get multi-track output from an LS9. Which expansion card will allow me to get the multi-track out to record a whole show to mix in the studio later?

Thanks
Tim

[muziekschuur]

Madi?

[waveterm]

Originally Posted by timothyclee

Anyone know the best way to get multi-track output from an LS9. Which expansion card will allow me to get the multi-track out to record a whole show to mix in the studio later?

Thanks
Tim

Output to what ?

WT

[memphisindie]

Doesn't an LS9 have either the "ethernet" digital output and also assignable analogue outputs?
If you're running the digital snakes, can't you assign all the analogue connections as outputs and bring them into an HD24?

If you're trying to digitally get multitrack from that system, I think you'll have to take it from the split, assuming you have one.

[waveterm]

The Ethernet output on LS9 is only for external control via Studio Manager software.

In a live situation, I would think that the LS9´s analog outputs would be used for other things than recording. Also, there´s only 16 analog outputs.

WT

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by waveterm

The Ethernet output on LS9 is only for external control via Studio Manager software.

In a live situation, I would think that the LS9´s analog outputs would be used for other things than recording. Also, there´s only 16 analog outputs.

WT

Sorry. ETHERSOUND
The LS932 has 2 digital snake ethernet/ethersound input/outputs via the SB168ES you can attach 2 and still you can only get 16 outputs.
I'm not sure but I think you can use a combination of the unused outs on the board and the snake to get a few more outputs, probably won't help a bit.
As I understand it, you can use both digital and analogue snakes simultaneously.

[waveterm]

Ethersound is an option on the LS9 series. You need to install MY-16ES/EX- cards to get the Ethersound-function.

Also, there are not many recorders available with Ethersound.

I´d suggest 2x MY16AT cards, giving 32channels of Adat to connect to the HD24 ( which I assume the OP is using ).

WT

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by waveterm

Ethersound is an option on the LS9 series. You need to install MY-16ES/EX- cards to get the Ethersound-function.

Also, there are not many recorders available with Ethersound.

I´d suggest 2x MY16AT cards, giving 32channels of Adat to connect to the HD24 ( which I assume the OP is using ).

WT

Hey, wasn't that the OP's original setup statement?

I think he may have given up rather than answer your question, "into what?".
If he'd only waited.

A Q?
If he connects two MY16AT cards, can he connect his regular MY16ES cards at the same time?

[timothyclee]

Thanks for the input. I wasn't the original poster of this question, but I saw this thread and thought those posting here knew a little on the LS9's capabilities. I do have a splitter and seperate mobile recording rig, but I just took over sound at a church where they have the LS9 and was just looking to see what anyone is using with the LS9 for a streamlined multi-track setup. The Alesis Hard Disk Recorded would be nice and compact with the adat cards installed in the LS9. From what I read online the protocol from Yamaha that digitally trnasmits over cat5 cable their MATI protocal I think it's called really only works cubase on a windows pc????

Tim

[waveterm]

Ethersound ( ES ) is not a Yamaha-exclusive protocol. I believe it is Digigram that invented it.

There are a number of manufacturers selling products for it.

THe LS9 doesn´t have any multichannel digital connections built into it. You have to use the mini YAGDI ports for that which has a maximum of 32 channels regardless of what protocal you choose to install.

WT