Sound Engineer Etiquette

[That One Guy]

Hi Guys,
I'm not a live sound recorder (I like the studio, where I can do lots of takes!) but I've been asked a few times recently to record some live sets with bands at local clubs.
Although I feel I could do a decent job, I'm a little reticent to say 'yes' for the simple reason that I'm unsure how this would work with the live sound engineer at the venue/s.
What rules of etiquette should I apply to keep the live sound guy happy?
I'm mostly concerned about mic-ing - whether to set up two sets of mics, or ask for direct/bus outs (if available), or whether I should get a mic splitter? Is there a standard for this sort of thing?
Thanks guys, any help is always appreciated!

[silverking]

Use a mic splitter, and add any additional mics you think you may need that the live guy hasn't got set up.

The point is really for the recording guy to not impact the live guy, and the live guy not to impact the recording guy.

Obviously, the only real problem would be feedback from either the house or the monitors, both of which would be recorded by you, but wouldn't be of your creation.

A splitter is really the only way to do this right, although direct outs from the live console would also work (but put you at the mercy of the live mixers choice of mics and mic positions.)

Setting up two completely different sets of mics is definitely not commonplace at a live show.

[Prime Tire]

I'd like to add that the direct outs from the board tend to be very vocal-heavy because the vocals are the quietest of all the sources coming from the stage and the PA needs to compensate for that.

[toneguru]

I've been a house engineer since 1994 and I would welcome a guy like you to come early, set up all of your mics and give me a feed (multi ch best or 2 buss if I must). As long as you know what mics will work best in the live arena I see no problem. My ego can take it and I do not mind the much reduced workload.

Otherwise a splitter is the most common way to get multi ch. I have had artists tell me that they spent much time and money in the studio and ended up liking the stereo out mix of their live performance better than the studio recording.

note: if you are going to bring your own mics bring cables too and some mic stands. The house man might need his cables to feed from you and the stands at my last gig either sucked or were good but disappeared.

note 2: Anybody doing remote gigs in the Bay Area? I can be a worthy assistant. I have top shelf recording mics and I have a good lay of the land dealing with artists and other house engineers.

- Cheers

[surflounge]

good reading...
Pity the poor soundman

[That One Guy]

cheers for all the responses guys.
I think i was just in denial about having to buy a set of mic splitters (very unslut-ish of me!), but that seems like the easiest way, without causing the sound guy issues.
btw, i should have stated earlier, I am talking about multi-track recording only, so i would be taking individual channel outs from the desk.
anyone know some good, reasonably priced splitters? i'm considering making my own...

[jude]

Originally Posted by Prime Tire

I'd like to add that the direct outs from the board tend to be very vocal-heavy because the vocals are the quietest of all the sources coming from the stage and the PA needs to compensate for that.

yeah, but what is stopping you ajusting the gain on your preamps to make up for the quieter instruments? you are taking individual outs, not just a matrix mix of the FOH mix

[Don S]

Originally Posted by That One Guy

anyone know some good, reasonably priced splitters? i'm considering making my own...

Radial makes good stuff. It might be most cost effective to make your own if you have the time. Just do a search, there are some schematics available on GS. I would avoid the horizon and proco.

[That One Guy]

Cheers Don - Radial have a good rep. and might be the way to go (I'm still going to look into making my own though - too much fun!)

[unclejoe]

One of the most important and often overlooked parts of a good live recordists arsenal is personality. You have to walk through the door looking like you know what you are doing without seeming cocky. you need to be forceful when you need to get what you need, but not come across as a d*ck. And you WILL come across some house soundguys who are idiots and some who are angels. Its all part of the rich tapestry.

Remember... in the studio, everything is there for you, but on site, when you really need something you don't have, you need to be very resourceful, very quickly. It is a whole other world out there my friend, but one that's is a hell of alot more fun than sitting in the studio doing take after take.

So basically, strap a pair on, dive in and make sure you get what YOU need, without p*ssing everybody off.

P.s. The other things people often forget to think about are power...(who is supplying and what kind etc)...phantom (similar!) and if you are not on active splits, dont start plugging or unplugging without telling the soundman first, otherwise you will not be a popular guy.

If its your first time, . You will f*ck up something, but if you can get it to tape without too much drama then you're well on your way!

Most of all.... enjoy!!

J

[mixedupsteve]

I have one of these. It's a hardwired direct splitter but I've never had any problem at all. I always try to set up near FOH and use same electric circuit as they do.

[Roland]

Ultimately you need to make sure it is ok with the club/venue owner. If they booked the act technically they have a contract for that performance and without there ok it's a problem anyway. With their ok, then the inhouse soundman really should play nice. Of course manners and co-operation from the "visiting" recording guy will get you a long way.

Steve Remote made some fascinating observations about "negotiating" mic changes etc in many of his posts. Personally I've found if you go in with a good attitude, gear that works (correctly and doesn't cause live sound issues), and a helpful disposition there are rarely any problems.

Hopefully Steve will chime in as I think his take on all this is really bang on.

Regards


Roland

[Don S]

Originally Posted by Roland

Personally I've found if you go in with a good attitude, gear that works (correctly and doesn't cause live sound issues), and a helpful disposition there are rarely any problems.
Roland

I've even gotten called back to record other groups from house engineers, simply because when I'm on the clock, I help out in any way I can. The recording isn't going to have a good groove unless the show goes smoothly and performers (including the house eng.) feel supported by people who they hired.

[wildplum]

i always try to contact the house engineer before the gig- about a week before is good. i discuss the project with him (her), my set up and mic selection.

i am usually hired by the band (although i've gotten quiet a few recommendations via the sound guy- if you do a good job, don't get in the way and are curteous and professional, when a band asks the house engineer for a recommendation for recording, he'll likely remember you). my fees are such that artists that hire me are serious and i usually have a free hand in selecting mics- but i always clear mic selection with the house guy and will bow to his needs when needed (I also have set up extra mics when needed, frequently its drum overheads in small clubs).

i bring my own cabling but mostly rely on the house for stands.
finally, i think a good quality splitter is essential. i made my own 24 channel spilt using Jensen transformers. i place it between the mics and the house stage box. that way their set up remains unchanged. i usually provide phantom, but again this is discussed with the house guy before hand.

i've recorded in biggish clubs (Warfield, fillmore) to small (freight and salvage, Noe Valley Ministry) and always use the same routine- the most important part of which is contacting the house engineer before the gig.

[That One Guy]

Cheers again everybody - a wealth of information! My plan right now -
1. Get me/build me some mic splitters.
2. Call ahead of time.
3. Be nice, respectful, but assertive with the sound guy.
4. Expect something to go wrong!
I'll let ya'll know how it goes (fortunately these are important/paying gigs - it's really just to cut my teeth on)

[boojum]

I record in this type of situation sometimes. I get there early and chat up the in-house sound guy if he is there. If not, I set up and chat him up when he returns. I run my gear on the stage lip and get a feed from the sound board which is essentially what they are sending to the stacks. Yes, it is heavy vocals. I fold it into what I get from my stage lip mics in post. I, too, bring all the gear I will need: cables, stands, all of it. Do not forget the gaffers tape.

The in-house guy is always a nice fellow and I try to keep it that way. He can't stop me from recording, but he sure can make my life difficult if he wants to. Yes, you do catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Good luck and have a great time. I love it as I love live performances.

[tamasdragon]

Many very good advice here. One of the main point imho is not getting into the way of the production. I mean if there are more stops and troubleshooting goes because of the location recorder, your life will be hard, so really planning is very-very important in this regard.
So basicly do not act like an intruder , but rather like a professional person

TD

[audibell]

Originally Posted by That One Guy

Cheers Don - Radial have a good rep. and might be the way to go (I'm still going to look into making my own though - too much fun!)

I recommend you look through these pages while you're planning to build your own splitter, at about $90/transformer - I would design your box so you have room to add a second isolated set of outputs later, unless you have the money to do it right away. As long as you discuss with the house engineer in advance, about the ground and who gets phantom, you shouldn't have any noisy surprises come the gig. There's a lot of good advice in this thread, just remember to be very flexible at first.

Splitters

have fun and remember to sing in the lifeboats,
Walter

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Lots of good advice already...

A couple of more suggestions.

If you do have to set up microphones make sure you let the band/performers know which are recording mics and which are PA microphones or you could soon witness someone trying to talk the audience from a recording microphone and even though it is sometimes comical it can get you into trouble very quickly. We use BIG yellow dots on the microphones we set up for recording and we tell the band/performers not to use them for making announcements.

Communications with the band/performers and the house sound guy should top the list of your MUST DOs. I usually talk through the concert with the band/performers and the house sound guy about a week before the gig and REMIND them of what we talked about the night of the gig.

Some house sound guys have a BIG chip on their shoulders and constantly want to prove who is the Alpha male (or female) and their over abundance of testosterone can be somewhat hard to put up with but if you are going to have a successful concert you have to overcome your urges to deck the house sound guy half way thorough the sound check. Most house sound guys I work with a VERY NICE people and really are eager for you and them to have a good concert experience.

Always have extra microphones and cables just in case. A couple of the mic stand clamp ons are also handy to have "just in case". Also a good LED flashlight and a couple of extra rolls of gaffer's tape will be needed in almost all situations. Please use the REAL gaffer's tape and not the "junque" duct tape you can buy at the home depot or at a hardware store. One trick I learned early on is to put some leather or plastic around the LED flashlight so when you stick it in your mouth ( we all do it) you don't break a tooth or have to taste aluminum for the rest of the concert. Also extra extension cords and plug in strips are always good to have with you at all times. Stay well hydrated especially in hot room or outdoors.

If you are having to work around an already setup stage make sure you don't move or change any of the house sound guys microphone placements or setups with out checking with them. If you have to unplug something make sure you tell the house sound guy about it BEFORE you disconnect the microphone or cable.

Before the show starts make a stage diagram so you can know what to do in an emergency and note things like AC outlets and where there are extra microphone and cables and what microphones are plugged into what inputs on the splitter. In the middle of an emergency it is not a good idea to go on stage and try and figure out why your microphone is not working by starting to pull out each microphone in turn, you will not be popular with the band/performers and not at all popular with the house sound guy.

If you have an assistant you life can be much more sane especially if you both have on wireless intercoms and can communicate when you are on stage and he is bringing up faders on the console. Just make sure to test the wireless intercom BEFORE the show to make sure your comments are not coming over the PA system.

Have fun (it is not brain surgery) and best of luck!