Professional vs Consumer Camcorder

[reinvention.of.man]

Does anyone know the difference between a consumer camcorder and a professional camcorder? What are the benefits if I purchase a professional camcorder?

[antoniosolo]

Just get high def and you're good. 800 or so.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by S&M Recording

What are the benefits if I purchase a professional camcorder?

Usually more optical zoom, and better quality (less noise) in low light. Affordable HD camcorders have come a long way lately, and you can get very good quality for well under a grand. One thing to watch for - when all else is equal, a larger CCD sensor is better. For example, 1/3 inch is better than 1/5 inch.

--Ethan

[tsvisser]

SENSOR SIZE
sometimes but not always, the sensor on a pro camera is much larger. a consumer camera is almost always pretty small.

LENSES
some pro cameras have a lens mount system, letting you fit the appropriate prime or zoom lens. consumer cams are always fixed.

AUDIO INPUTS
pro cameras have XLR or other miniature balanced connector for audio, while consumer cameras have a built in mic and sometimes a mic input on unbalanced mini-jack. pro cameras will sometimes have timecode I/O to interface with external recorders.

FRAME RATES
pro cameras will be able to shoot in 23.976, 24, 29.97, and 30 fps (for the NTSC market), while most consumer cameras are fixed at 29.97 and may sometimes have a cinema mode which allows 23.976 or some aperture setting that simulates the slower frame rate.

COST
pro is more expensive. both because of the quality of the camera and who it is marketed towards.

OTHER FEATURES
zerbra striping for overexposed areas, manual controls, accessory attachments, etc..

There is something interesting happening, larger SLR style sensors are being fitted to cinema cameras (RED) or SLR and other advanced cameras are supporting video modes which are no longer just toy features.

Canon 5dMKII support 1080p @ 29.97. This is a very large sensor and thus supports excellent dynamic range and shallow depth of field to enable better image composition. I think that it records audio at 24/44.1 rather than 24/48, which is the proper sample rate for video related audio. The video codec is known to fall apart in certain situations. mini-jack audio input

Canon 7d is coming soon, like any time now. It has a smaller sensor than the 5dMKII, but much larger than most consumer and pro camcorders. It has most all of the benefits of very good shallow depth of field, but because of the smaller sensor, it is likely that the video processing is faster and better. It also support 23.976 frame rate in addition to 29.97, so good for cinematic content in addition to broadcast / TV stuff. I think it suffers from the same audio sample rate issue, though. mini-jack audio input

Panasonic DMC-GH1
a micro 4/3 based camera. it may not have the absolute performance of the SLR Canons, but it is cheaper and optimized for digital acquisition. you should get more performance at the same price point, with the micro 4/3 systems being ultimately cheaper and not capable of the highest levels of performance, but still capable of excellent results, even better than today's professional camcorders. unless you have really great Canon glass or are going to spend $$$$ on getting the right glass, micro 4/3 is my recommendation of the way to go. Shoots 1080p at 23.976 or 720p at 29.97. It supports an AVCHD "lite" codec which does not support "B-frames", meaning the codec takes less space on disc, but does have problem with fast motion or jerky cams. Not the right camera or sports or vehicle use, but can get great results with professional use and support. mini-jack audio input

Panasonic DMC-GF1
ultra compact cousin to the GH1, but does not support 23.976 frame rate. no audio input, only on-board mic

Olympus E-P1
very close in spec to the GF1

Olympus E-P2
not released yet, may not be the actual name of the camera, should be announced at the end of next month. this is supposed to be the professional version of the E-P1. it may support 1080 @ 23.976 and have a better codec than either of the panasonics. If it does, this is the camera that I will likely purchase for myself.

RED ONE
$30k to $50k camera, but worth mentioning since this camera single handedly revolutionized digital cinematography. It competes and exceeds the performance of cameras costing 3 times as much.

RED Scarlet
not released but an interesting series of cameras, some of which will approach near prosumer costs. unlike the still cameras with movie modes, these will specifically be designed for the professional cinema markets.

[reinvention.of.man]

Thanks for the replies. I didn't know if it was the same scenario as high end vs low end. For example, I had a point and shoot camera, later upgrading to a SLR camera. There was a huge difference in photo quality and options. I'm the somewhat becoming the jack of all trades; mixing, producing, songwriting, photograph, graphic designing, etc. I would like to dabbled into the video production field, but I wasn't sure if there was a major difference in video quality. Also if a professional camcorder would be over kill. It's a major price jump, yet I would like to have my work look and sound professional. I was debating on these between two models. The camcorder will be used to do interviews, documentaries, online broadcasting and music videos.

Amazon.com: Canon XH-A1S 3CCD HDV High Definition Professional Camcorder with 20x HD Video Zoom Lens III: Camera & Photo

OR

Amazon.com: Canon VIXIA HFS10 HD Dual Flash Memory with 32 GB Internal Memory and 10x Optical Zoom: Camera & Photo

Amazon.com: Beachtek DX-A2S Dual XLR Compact Audio Adapter for all Camcorders.: Musical Instruments

[reinvention.of.man]

Wow!!! I think I posted this too late. Sorry I didn't see your post. Thanks tsvisser!

[tsvisser]

as with music production, the results are mostly based upon the skill of the operator. you could get great results from either cam, but the XH series is going to be better than the Vixia. I work with a few producers who shoot the XH and the audio is actually decent on board that camera, especially when fed from an external mixer. The DSLR and micro 4/3 cameras that I mention actually blow the XH out of the water when it comes to absolute video performance, but they are still awkward to use and not purpose built for professional field use. (but going back to the professional results mostly being in the experience of the operator)

Personally, I would have hard time putting money into the 1/3" or smaller CCD cameras, professional or not, when we have APS-C or 4/3 sized sensors available at the same or more often, cheaper than these cameras. I think that Canon will likely be introducing a large sensor sized pro video camera line up soon.

[reinvention.of.man]

Cool.. Thanks for the info.

Just checking out a sample video on youtube. Doesn't seem like it's a major difference between the video quality of the Canon HF and HX series. Check it out!

YouTube - Canon HF S100 VS. Canon XH A1S 24F TEST

[reinvention.of.man]

Thank you everyone for your help. It was all useful information. Well I've narrowed it down to two pro series camcorders. I pretty sure this is it, looks like a winner. Thanks again!

YouTube - AVCCAM compression comparison demo video

Panasonic AG-HMC70
Panasonic | AG-HMC70U Shoulder Mounted Camcorder | AG-HMC70U

YouTube - Panasonic AG-HMC70 3-CCD AVCHD 1080i Camcorder
YouTube - AG-HMC70/71 [RAW Footage]

Panasonic AG-HMC40
Panasonic | AG-HMC40 AVCCAM HD Camcorder | AG-HMC40PJU | B&H

YouTube - AG-HMC40 Handheld Dual-Use AVCCAM Camcorder
YouTube - Panasonic AG-HMC40 1080p Test Footage

[ezjohn]

All the advice given above is good advice.

I would start my selection process at the END, e.g.: What is the purpose, or what do you want to accomplish, You Tube, I Phone, Home Movies, Music Video, Feature Film, DVD?

Do you really need a Video Camera, Many small projects are shot with a SLR camera that shoots short bursts of video at a frame rate of 15-30 FPS, And shoots great Stills.

I would then select a few cameras (Do your Homework) in your price range, And make sure you have the budget For The MEDIA CARDS, The P-2 cards use to run $ 1600.00 dollars for a 16 GB card (Plus you need a card reader, Add $1200.00) vs a SDHC card for about $20.00 for a 16 GB card.

Also consider a MINI DV Tape camera, $2.25 for a 1 hour tape.

Consider the Format the camera shoots in, Can this be Imported into your computer??

Mini DV takes about 12 GB per hour, AVCHD Highly compressed on your SDHC card becomes about 70 GB in your computer.

Many computers don't have the Horse Power to "Ingest" AVCHD or other Formats.

Will your Software work with your chosen Format?

Do you Have a "Scratch Drive"?

How are you going to record Sound? A shotgun mic mounted to your camera is a not the best choice.

Ask yourself these and many other questions PRIOR to buying ANYTHING.

After you are satisfied with a choice, RENT the camera for a weekend, and shoot
in the conditions you want to buy the camera for.

Import and Edit, then deliver your content to You Tube, DVD, Etc.

Do your homework and you will make the right decision.

John

[reinvention.of.man]

Originally Posted by ezjohn

All the advice given above is good advice.

I would start my selection process at the END, e.g.: What is the purpose, or what do you want to accomplish, You Tube, I Phone, Home Movies, Music Video, Feature Film, DVD?

Do you really need a Video Camera, Many small projects are shot with a SLR camera that shoots short bursts of video at a frame rate of 15-30 FPS, And shoots great Stills.

I would then select a few cameras (Do your Homework) in your price range, And make sure you have the budget For The MEDIA CARDS, The P-2 cards use to run $ 1600.00 dollars for a 16 GB card (Plus you need a card reader, Add $1200.00) vs a SDHC card for about $20.00 for a 16 GB card.

Also consider a MINI DV Tape camera, $2.25 for a 1 hour tape.

Consider the Format the camera shoots in, Can this be Imported into your computer??

Mini DV takes about 12 GB per hour, AVCHD Highly compressed on your SDHC card becomes about 70 GB in your computer.

Many computers don't have the Horse Power to "Ingest" AVCHD or other Formats.

Will your Software work with your chosen Format?

Do you Have a "Scratch Drive"?

How are you going to record Sound? A shotgun mic mounted to your camera is a not the best choice.

Ask yourself these and many other questions PRIOR to buying ANYTHING.

After you are satisfied with a choice, RENT the camera for a weekend, and shoot
in the conditions you want to buy the camera for.

Import and Edit, then deliver your content to You Tube, DVD, Etc.

Do your homework and you will make the right decision.

John

Very good read.. Thanks John!

[AllAboutTone]

I picked up a Canon GL2 from a pawn shop, the zoom did not work well sent it to Canon, they repaired it for free, I paid 250.00 for the GL2, they sell new for 2600.00 , I love this camera its looks better than HD on my monitors.

I luck up on amazing deals.

[reinvention.of.man]

Wow!!! That sounds like a steal..

[brockorama]

I shoot with xh a1 canon. also an older 4:3 GL1 which is also a nice SD camera. Don't forget that SD can be edited natively pretty easily so in that respect if its all online material and no 1920x1080 HD broadcast stuff required do like all about tone and get a nice sd camera. Editing HD is a bear to work with and requires a beefy machine along with an intermediate codec from cineform or hardware acceleration. I use cineform prospect hd which is $749 usd for the codec so factor that into your pricing as well.

[reinvention.of.man]

Cineform prospect hd? Wow!!! Sounds like a have some more research to do.. I plan to do a lot of HD recording, wide screen, etc. Thanks for the update! I just purchased Adobe After Effects. I may get Final Cut Express verses the Pro series to cut some expenses. Can you suggest any lens? For example, how would I benefit using a wide angle lens?

[brockorama]

I have a wide angle for my GL-1 and it does the usual like makes guitar necks look a mile long and makes small rooms look much deeper. I think you have to spend around 10k to interchange nice lenses. If you had that need you could rent RED 1's way cheaper. They are the new darling of the indie world. I want one
scott

[carllock]

Here is a real simple video shot with GL1:

YouTube - K I Backus -"Fader" Video

[blueangel2323]

main thing is sensor size, i.e. noise. BUT you can just buy a copy of NeatVideo (google it) and it'll make a prosumer camera look pro. just don't go overboard with the settings or you'll end up with motion waterpaintings!

[cjogo]

I still shoot with a SONY DCR TRV 20 --- used for about $100 --- still uses DV tape ---the 3CCD TRV 900 is a good second ---


No HD space to worry about ---- no compression (tried a new SONY HD > after editing > not too happy ) Standard definition DVD, HDD, and flash memory camcorders all employ MPEG-2 compression, which has a much lower data rate than DV

[svart]

Canon’s XH A1 and VIXIA HF10 HD Camcorders Used to Photograph Groundbreaking Action Movie Crank High Voltage | The Briefing Room

[mmcfarlane]

I use a Canon XH A1. Lots of bang for the buck, good audio section with XLR's and phantom power so you can hang condensor mics right off the camera, which is great when you can't get a board feed. Often I'll take a board feed (or use a shotgun mic pointed at the speakers) on one channel and mic the audience on the second channel, then mix them in post

In general, the pro or prosumer cameras will have 3 large CCDs instead of one small one, kind of like the difference between a $100 dynamic mic and a $2000 condensor for audio. Low-light performance is where the more expensive cameras really shine (with larger CCD's and larger glass to collect the light).

That being said, the low light performance on the Canon XH A1 isn't awesome, its OK but not great. Sony seems to usually get great low light performance. Also, given two CCDs of the same size and sensitivity, one SD and one HD, the SD will collect more photons per element (think pixel), i.e. it will have better low light performance.

Regarding HD, I never shoot HD anymore. There is no practical way to deliver HD offline to a wide audience. Your consumers need to have a BluRay player and blank BluRay disks are still really expensive.

In retrosepct, I'd rather have a used SD camcorder with great glass and low light performance.

In summary, for me, a pro camera is all about the glass, CCDs, and audio connections.

[Petrus]

One big difference (in litteral sense also) is the possibility of manual controll in a pro or semipro camera while shooting. Think about a big aperture ring on Canon XH-A1 for example, many/most amateur models have no manual setting at all or one only accesible via touch screen menu: impossible to adjust during the shoot. Generally larger cameras are more ergonomic, you actually have space for your hands and all controls can be placed where they belong.

Video capable new SLR cameras might shoot neat and sharp video, but they are usable only in some instances. Many of those cameras have no audio to speak of (quality, no connetions, no manual control) and even focus & zoom might be locked during the shoot, also exposure. Do not forget also that ND filters must be used in video to keep the exposures long enough for smooth movement (typically 1/60 for NTSC) and that these still cameras can not shoot interlaced material required for TV. In that sense they are not video cameras at all, just still camaras capable of high frame rates. Usable maybe for carefully planned movie shoots with limitations (no follow focus etc) and with separate audio, but not usable for documentary or ENG type of fast work.

[Ozpeter]

I awarded myself a Panasonic GH1 a couple of months back and the video quality is remarkable - in most situations it's way ahead of any normal domestic-type camcorder. But it lacks a lot of the kind of pro stuff than needs a larger physical size - eg the audio input is 2.5mm - yeuk! and no control over audio llevel at all. On the other hand there is full manual control of the video if you want, and it takes a wide range of lenses via adapters.

Because of the advent of devices like that the whole market seems to me to be in a state of considerable transformation. Just what we'll have in a couple of years' time is hard to imagine.

Plenty of reading matter to be had at DVXuser.com - The Filmmaking Community

[Thomas W. Bethe]

We got into video a couple of years ago at the request of one of our clients. It was a GREAT move. We now have two HD cameras and have switched over to the MAC and Final Cut Studio for most things we do. One thing you need to think about before spending any money...what are you going to be doing and how much are you going to have to rely on your cameras. We went the consumer route when we first got into the business but it proved to be a BIG mistake. We spent a lot of money but the results were NOT what we or our clients wanted so we had to re-spend more money to get the quality we and our clients wanted. I know the pro stuff costs more but in the end if you use your equipment day in and day out the pro stuff just keeps delivering where the consumer stuff is not designed for day in day out hard use.

One new camera to look at (I know we are) is the JVC GY HM 100U (more at JVC Professional - Camcorder MDL101845). For $ 3500 is it s GREAT deal. It shoots in native format for Final Cut and uses HDSC card for media which can be plugged into any computer for instant editing.

You have gotten a lot of good information from a lot of good sources. Best of Luck and let us know what you decide.

[mmcfarlane]

If you plan to do a lot of production work, the recording media is very important.

All of the consumer and prosumer HD cameras that I know of compress the data down to SD data rates so they can use the old SD tape transports. This includes the $5000 cameras. HD tapes are prone to dropouts, which means capturing tapes can be a real pain, and is always real time, so slow 3 hours to capture 3 hours of video.

Hard disk or static RAM recording systems are a much better choice. They were much too expensive for me 2 years ago when I bought my Canon XH A1, maybe they have come down in price. It's awesome to think you can shoot, then plug in the media on your computer and start editing without speding 3 hours of capture, having the captures fail and having to recapture,...

Time is money.

[reinvention.of.man]

Wow!!! There is so much useful information. The JVC GY HM 100U sounds like a winner. I may have to save a little more, but it seem to be well worth it. Thanks guys!

[videoteque]

The video world is pretty messed up as you can understand just by reading these advices, everyone has a different one, but all of them are different!!!

The under 2000$ and year 2009 options include two options:

An AVCHD camcorder. Pro: Under 1000$, included storage, long recording times, good image, auto-everything. Cons: AVCHD needs a powerful computer to edit.

A digital SLR camera that record video. Pro: Really nice image quality, different lenses. Cons: AVCHD needs a poweful computer to edit, short/limited recording time, non auto-focus in video mode, different lenses cost a lot of money soon!

The third non under 2000$ and possibly not 2009 sensible is to buy an HDV camcorder, use DV tapes as recording support (and cheap backup!) and live with a regular image quality, 61 minutes recording time...

My advice: use anything that records video (iPhone, cheap digital camera) use it, feel what you lack and what you need and then make a decision based on what YOU know, not on what other people say!!!

[videoteque]

It must be JUST in your monitors...

I agree with 250$ you couldn't do better. But with 2600$ you can buy three camcorders that look better than your GL2 and you can start a multi-cam rig!

Originally Posted by AllAboutTone

I picked up a Canon GL2 from a pawn shop, the zoom did not work well sent it to Canon, they repaired it for free, I paid 250.00 for the GL2, they sell new for 2600.00 , I love this camera its looks better than HD on my monitors.

I luck up on amazing deals.

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by antoniosolo

Just get high def and you're good. 800 or so.

This is not correct. This is like saying that as long as you get a microphone that goes from 20Hz to 20kHz, you're OK.

A nicer camera is like having a nicer microphone. You'll get better definition (even when the "resolution" is the same), more flexibility, better performance in low-light, etc. If you've used picture camera and/or audio gear, then it's pretty easy to find plenty of analogies regarding professional and prosumer gear.

Mostly, my experience is with the Canon XH-A1 and the Canon Vixia series. As has been mentioned before, consumer cameras have come a LONG way, but they are different. Just like with recording, what you should get depends on your needs and your financial return.

[Ozpeter]

A small point -

non auto-focus in video mode

The GH1 DSLR does autofocus in video mode, together with such neat things as face tracking (or you can switch to manual of course).

For any serious work two (or more) cameras are required so that does have to be built into the budget.

AVCHD does require some computer heft to edit, but transcoding to a suitable intermediary format makes life easier, and any end-product quality loss can be pretty minimal. I guess AVCHD is the mp3 of the video world.