Professional vs Consumer Camcorder

[markr041]

As noted by others one of the major shortcomings of the new DSLRs and the newest micro4/3 cameras for video is the crippled audio. The biggest problem is that all use autogain. We all know how lousy that is. I have posted a video clip to YouTube that demonstrates the horror of autogain:


YouTube - Panasonic GH1 audio: on camera sound versus sound from an external source (Olympus LS-10)

The video was taken in a quiet garden. The first part of the clip has the audio straight from the camera - sounds like a freight train, as autogain pumped up the volume because it heard very little - just crickets. The second part of the clip uses audio from the Olympus LS10, using manual gain set at an appropriate level. That audio was synced to the in-camera audio using software, so it is exactly the same sounds (and the same video) at a realistic low level, but you can still just hear the crickets, as was actually the case (this was mid-day). New software means that the lack of timecode on these cameras is no longer a barrier to the use of external audio. The good news is that this may mean that those newly attracted to video with these new cameras may also be convinced to buy audio equipment!

[tsvisser]

Originally Posted by markr041

As noted by others one of the major shortcomings of the new DSLRs and the newest micro4/3 cameras for video is the crippled audio. The biggest problem is that all use autogain. We all know how lousy that is. I have posted a video clip to YouTube that demonstrates the horror of autogain:


YouTube - Panasonic GH1 audio: on camera sound versus sound from an external source (Olympus LS-10)

The video was taken in a quiet garden. The first part of the clip has the audio straight from the camera - sounds like a freight train, as autogain pumped up the volume because it heard very little - just crickets. The second part of the clip uses audio from the Olympus LS10, using manual gain set at an appropriate level. That audio was synced to the in-camera audio using software, so it is exactly the same sounds (and the same video) at a realistic low level, but you can still just hear the crickets, as was actually the case (this was mid-day). New software means that the lack of timecode on these cameras is no longer a barrier to the use of external audio. The good news is that this may mean that those newly attracted to video with these new cameras may also be convinced to buy audio equipment!

Great point. The people of this forum, however, should have pretty good access to audio recording equipment and if you work in a film style workflow, it is expected to record audio to an external device. You can defeat autogain by sending a 20Hz tone mixed in with the audio with an amplitude sufficient enough to keep the gain changes suppressed. In post, simply filter out with a high pass. Another approach, send audible timecode on the left channel for example, and then a scratch track for reference or dailies on the other track, while keeping reference audio on a separate recorder. The new version of Avid Media Composer can natively read audible timecode and for FCP users, there are 3rd party plugins which can read TC in this manner.

That being said, the reason that I can embrace still cameras that do video is the fact that I'm not a cameraman by profession, it is just for my own personal use. If I was a professional in the camera department, then I'd have to more critically evaluate my needs, but for those hobbyists who can appreciate higher quality levels, the still-cameras are very appealing and seem like a no brainer. For the record, I will not purchase a DSLR, but the first Micro 4/3 system that support 24 or 23.976 fps and has a decent video codec (hopefully the forthcoming Olympus E-P2 or whatever it is going to be called - Announcement on October 31st). Full frame DSLR are great for still photography, but when used for 1080 video, most of the sensor is wasted and there are actually negative side effects of using such a big sensor due to real time processing requirements and how the image is scaled down to a relatively small 1080 lines of resolution. I believe even APS-C is overkill for video and Micro 4/3 represents a much more optimized platform for video and of course will give the purchaser a better value, allowing one to spend more money on what really counts, glass.

[markr041]

"the first Micro 4/3 system that support 24 or 23.976 fps and has a decent video codec"

I am sure you know that the GH1 produces 23.976 fps straight from the sensor at 1080, wrapped in 60i. Sotware pulldown gets you back to 108024p. So it supports 23.976 (24p). Are you just saying the AVCHD codec on the GH1 is not decent?

I doubt that the new Olympus m43 is going to make big strides in video. The Canon 5D is going to get 24p with a firmware update next year but I agree that m43 is the way to go, given the right quality..

[tsvisser]

Originally Posted by markr041

"the first Micro 4/3 system that support 24 or 23.976 fps and has a decent video codec"

I am sure you know that the GH1 produces 23.976 fps straight from the sensor at 1080, wrapped in 60i. Sotware pulldown gets you back to 108024p. So it supports 23.976 (24p). Are you just saying the AVCHD codec on the GH1 is not decent?

I doubt that the new Olympus m43 is going to make big strides in video. The Canon 5D is going to get 24p with a firmware update next year but I agree that m43 is the way to go, given the right quality..

The minor issues I have with the GH1 are twofold. First the data rate is a bit low, although it is quite useable, having a higher data rate that AVCHD supports would have been nice. Second, it uses a basic AVCHD profile and does not support "B-frames". This basically means that it does not take advantage of an adaptive mode that analyses frame to frame motion differences as effectively as the advanced profile, so fast motion or fast pans tend to make the video fall apart in a rather dramatic and negative manner. I'm very curious to say the least about the Olympus announcement at the end of the month, but it is quite possible I will be disappointed and be waiting for another several months, or just break down and buy a GH1.

I have absolutely no problem with AVCHD in general nor the technique of using a 1080i wrapper. 24p wrapped inside of a 1080i codec is still in fact "true 24p" no matter how anyone tries to spin it, assuming that the decoding is done competently.

[reinvention.of.man]

Just wondering does anyone use or tried a cam stabilizer?

Glidecam Demonstration Videos

[Petrus]

Originally Posted by S&M Recording

Just wondering does anyone use or tried a cam stabilizer?

Glidecam Demonstration Videos

I have a Stedicam Merlin. I works surprisincly well, but it is not possible to shoot longer than 2-3 minutes without resting as the system is handheld. By forking out couple of thousand more I would get a vest system to take the weight off the arm.

[LX3]

FWIW, I'm just back tonight from a concert DVD shoot where the video people were using 4 x HVX200, a Z1... and whaddya know, a brand spanking new EOS 7D.

During the break I asked the camera operator how he was liking the 7D, and he said could only shoot about 10 minutes at a time before the camera stopped running. He also kept getting an "overheat" message, which stops the camera from powering up, so he'd been nipping outside into the cold wintery weather every now and then during the gig, to try and get the sensor to cool down.

So it's not really a gig-filming camera.

[Petrus]

The famous RED camera is also notorious overheater, actually it can not be used for critical sound shots umblimped as the loud cooling fans kick in after two minutes of shooting.

[tsvisser]

Originally Posted by Petrus

The famous RED camera is also notorious overheater, actually it can not be used for critical sound shots umblimped as the loud cooling fans kick in after two minutes of shooting.

Are you sure this hasn't been adjusting in a recent firmware update? I can tell when the camera starts recording just by listening for the fan to stage down into a slow speed mode, but never recall hearing it ramp back up. For very quiet scenes, I can hear the fan in close quarters, but I don't feel that it is to the point where it compromises its utility for this type of work.

Originally Posted by LX3

FWIW, I'm just back tonight from a concert DVD shoot where the video people were using 4 x HVX200, a Z1... and whaddya know, a brand spanking new EOS 7D.

During the break I asked the camera operator how he was liking the 7D, and he said could only shoot about 10 minutes at a time before the camera stopped running. He also kept getting an "overheat" message, which stops the camera from powering up, so he'd been nipping outside into the cold wintery weather every now and then during the gig, to try and get the sensor to cool down.

So it's not really a gig-filming camera.

This helps to confirm in my mind, APS-C sensor, still to large for a crossover camera that is shooting a lowly 1080p resolution. 4/3 and Micro 4/3 would be much better suited for this type of work. The RED has a large sensor, but also look at the heavy duty cooling system that it employs to keep it operational in real world shooting environments.

[videoteque]

There is no "perfect camera"!

Questions like "What camcorder should I buy?" make no sense unless you also declare what do you need to do with them and what budget you have.

I always assume people asking here for a camcorder are recording music gigs...

[Ozpeter]

Shower Over Moon Street on Vimeo shows that what I would describe as professional results can be obtained with a GH1. What you see is obviously the result of post-processing but that's no different from hearing the result of audio post-processing. So long as the end result is up to scratch, never mind what you started with.

Some recent tests on DVXuser.com have indicated that the DSLR video from the 5DII, 7D and GH1 are actually the result of some smoke-and-mirror stuff to make the eye think that it's seeing high resolution whereas a clinical test shows that it's to some extent an illusion. But again, if the viewer is happy with the experience, that's the ultimate test.

[reinvention.of.man]

Does anyone know the name of the lens that makes this effect?

[videoteque]

Fisheye

[reinvention.of.man]

Cool.. Thanks!

[videoteque]

I put this link for future reference!

Interesting 101 on actual video technology

[Tom Hakala]

I have been enjoying Canon HF100 with DOF adapter. I have Canon 50mm F1.8 for my vid cam purposes...

here's one of my vids:
FÃ¥rholmen on Vimeo

[audibell]

Originally Posted by mmcfarlane

All of life is a test.

You wouldn't compare a Ferarri and a Cadillac in a parking lot, the comparison wouldn't really be meaningful unless you park a lot.

How's that?

I think there's a song in there, somewhere fuuck
WT

[neurosound]

Three cameras i use are canon xl2, sony HVR-1A and canon HFS 11. XL2 and HVR-1A both use DV tape. HFS 11 is AVCHD. In terms of image, HFS 11 is the stand out. Interms of audio Xl2 is in the pro level.

Out of the three, the HFS 11 is the best. I use a sound devices 442/722 in conjunction with the HFS 11 so that i send audio to the drive in the HFS 11 and record the same audio to the 722 HD and drop in the 722 audio in post.

That said, I am very impressed by the limiting on the HFS 11 mini jack input when sending mic level output from the 442 to camera. Sometimes I use the HFS 11 audio over the 722 because the limiting in the 722 isn't fast enough to capture the big transients. That's something Sony need to really work on... In high pressure situations when audio is secondary to the take, gotta love the HFS 11.

Draw back with the canon HFS 11 is that avid media composer doesn't support it, my version of final cut does't support it, so i am forced to use imovie as my importing software to turn the media into .mov before importing into final cut.

Sure i need to update final cut and wait for avid to get there act together. But come on, AVCHD is not new...

[Thomas W. Bethe]

We are going to do post on some video shot with some Canon DSLRs. It is of a classical concert and our client is using three cameras and wants it all sync'd up. The client says so far he is getting incredible results with the Canons. I will let you know how it looks after we get the video.

GOOD TOPIC!

[blaugruen7]

i think a big drawback for the dslr cams is limitation to 20,10 or sometimes 7 minutes of recording without stopping...
i read tax issues are the reason for this, not overheating.

[Corran]

I recently got a Nikon D90, but just for photography. However I thought it would be great to use as a videocamera too. From what I understand, in Europe if a product can take more than 5 minutes of video it must be classified as a videocamera or something and therefore has higher duties. Therefore, we have this limitation in all the cameras to do only 5 minutes of continuous video, even in the US.

As for overheating, supposedly from what I've read it should be able to take over an hour of video before that happens.

I'm going to try it and see if it quits at 5 minutes. If not, I think I'll be trying it out with an AC adapter next concert I play to see how it looks.

[LX3]

When the camera shuts down following a temperature warning on the display, I think its safe to say its a sensor overheat problem. But you're right, there's also supposedly a limit imposed because of import duty. I think it's rather more than 5min though.

Still, from what I've seen, if you had to choose one camera to shoot a gig with, a DSLR doesn't look like a good choice.

[Corran]

Just tried it on my D90. I can't claim anything about others, but there is definitely a time limit of 5 minutes for a continuous clip.

The review I read said that it could be in "Live View" mode for about an hour before overheating. This is the same as taking a movie because the sensor is constantly getting an image and transmitting it to the LCD display, and in fact you have to be in Live View to take a movie.

I'm very interested to see if this BS 5 minute limit can be circumvented. I would really like to use this camera as a HD video recorder. It might not be the "best solution" but in my case it's basically a free camcorder since I bought this camera as an amateur photographer to take nice photos, not specifically for video.

[LX3]

Oh for sure, without a doubt, as a "free" add-on to your stills camera, it makes a flippin' amazing video camera!

There's pretty much always at least one 7D or 5D on any shoot we're involved with these days.

[Corran]

Just found out something else, the 5 minute limit is for HD video. For regular 640x424 videos the limit is 20 minutes. I don't know why it should be different. Filesize is not the problem as a 5 minute HD video is only 600mb or so, a far cry from the 2gig max in FAT32.

[LX3]

The 7D definitely does more than 5 min continuously, so I guess this is a Nikon thing.

[videoteque]

The Canon 7D or the 5DmkII does a 4Gb file which means more or less 12 minutes!

[NorseHorse]

Professional Camera (with professional videographer) v. Consumer Cameras (with professional audiographer) below. The school employed the professional videographer. I was there to run the sound, but I did my own video as a courtesy to some of the groups. There were eleven groups, ten of which do not soundcheck (including the group below). I have to keep that in mind when setting the stage -- I have to make it so that they can just walk-out and perform without any coaching or having to worry about the microphones. Anways, on to the videos...

Learn about Panasonic's AG-HMC150
Panasonic HMC150 recording in HD using AVCHD. "1/3" 3-CCD progressive image system with excellent sensitivity, superb color reproduction and resolution"


Canon U.S.A. : Support & Drivers : VIXIA HF100
Two Canon Vixia HF100 consumer cameras recording in HD using AVCHD. (single CMOS sensor)