RE20 for upright bass into Bose L1

[thejumpcat]

Newbie here.

Not sure if I've got the correct forum, but here's the question:

I play upright bass in a jump blues band. I use a Realist pickup into an Ampeg BA115T -- not the ideal amp for upright.

At the Detroit Jazz Festival a few weeks ago, I saw Super Bass II (Christian McBride, John Clayton & Rodney Whitaker). None of them used an amp. They were all mic'd with RE20s. Into what board, I have no idea. The sound was killer.

My band uses a Bose L1 portable PA system:

Bose L1 Model II Single Bass Package with ToneMatch Engine - Live Sound Loudspeakers - Professional Sound Systems

I'm wondering if an RE20 would work for me into the Bose (which offers different options for bass pickups, but it doesn't sound that good when I go direct into it via the Realist).

I'm also contemplating an Acoustic Image Focus amp head, which will accept a mic and has a phantom power option, into a 2x8 cabinet.

I'm posting this on TalkBass.com as well, but I thought I'd get some opinions here if you folks don't mind.

Thanks!

[M4-10]

Mic the bass with the RE20 and give it to the sound guy to put in the main speakers. Keep your pickup and amp and use it as a stage monitor for the bass.

Your amp (any amp!) isn't meant for the audience's ears if you are playing at a place with a PA. (actually the exception is probably the small blues club with no sound guy and the PA for vocals and keys).

[leddy]

I'm a bass player and I work for a group that uses a Bose L1.

For quiet gigs, I can use just a mic with no pickup. I have used an RE20, but I tend to prefer the Beyer M88, or a small cardioid condenser mic like an Oktava MC012 or similar. The RE20 is a fine mic - I'm splitting hairs with choosing others. You might prefer the RE20.

I've used many pickups and they all suck compared to using mics, but you often have no choice. I do not plug my pickup into the L1, I use an amp for that. M4-10 is right on - use the pickup and your amp for the stage sound and send the mic signal to the L1. The L1 is a great PA, but the bass can get buried if the rest of the band is loud and there is a lot of leakage into your mic.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by leddy

I'm a bass player and I work for a group that uses a Bose L1.

For quiet gigs, I can use just a mic with no pickup. I have used an RE20, but I tend to prefer the Beyer M88, or a small cardioid condenser mic like an Oktava MC012 or similar. The RE20 is a fine mic - I'm splitting hairs with choosing others. You might prefer the RE20.

I've used many pickups and they all suck compared to using mics, but you often have no choice. I do not plug my pickup into the L1, I use an amp for that. M4-10 is right on - use the pickup and your amp for the stage sound and send the mic signal to the L1. The L1 is a great PA, but the bass can get buried if the rest of the band is loud and there is a lot of leakage into your mic.

Yes! The Beyer M88 is even better than the RE20. Most live sound engineers use the RE20 because they are plentiful. But an M88 has even more off-axis rejection than the EV re20.

Most bass players that I work with in New York don't use amps and most New York professional jazz drummers are sensitive enough to not overplay. But in a jump-blues situation, the volume levels may require a monitor speaker or bass amp on stage.

If you play with very low action, the mic alone may not be enough. If you have a big acoustic sound, an re20 or M88 will do the trick. Also, the Sennhiser 441u is a good choice, but they are more expensive than an M88 or RE20.

[George Necola]

I use SM57 and CharterOak S600.. I suck

[GZsound]

Originally Posted by George Necola

I use SM57 and CharterOak S600.. I suck

One of the best sounding upright bass players in bands I have run sound for has a wooden "C" clamp on his bass holding an SM57 and it sounds great.

I am more of a fan of mics mounted on the bass, typically small condensers, because they have a constant pickup when the bass moves around.

If you get an Acoustic Image amp, you might try giving the sound guy the preamp output from the amp to see how it sounds.

I use an LR Baggs Para DI off our Eminence bass with a Realist pickup with great results. Works good with our upright with Fishman pickups too.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by GZsound

One of the best sounding upright bass players in bands I have run sound for has a wooden "C" clamp on his bass holding an SM57 and it sounds great.

I am more of a fan of mics mounted on the bass, typically small condensers, because they have a constant pickup when the bass moves around.

If you get an Acoustic Image amp, you might try giving the sound guy the preamp output from the amp to see how it sounds.

I use an LR Baggs Para DI off our Eminence bass with a Realist pickup with great results. Works good with our upright with Fishman pickups too.

That probably works great. Many bass players, however, don't want anything touching their bass because it cuts out some resonance. The late, great Dennis Irwin had no problem with a SDC mic wrapped in cloth and stuck in the bridge. Other bass players will only permit a mic on a stand.

[leddy]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

Most bass players that I work with in New York don't use amps and most New York professional jazz drummers are sensitive enough to not overplay.

You also have sophisticated audiences who listen (at least more often than in other cities) and club-owners who demand that the audience noise be kept down. I know you are also hanging with heavier players where people are more likely to be there for the music.

I recently played at an event billed as a "jazz festival", held at multiple venues around town. A group of people sits at the table directly in front of the stage and proceeds to shout over us to each other. No one else in the room was talking and management did nothing. It never fails. We had a steady hotel gig where a large group of 10 or more might sit right next to us and do the same - while there were tables available at the opposite end of the room.

I can play without an amp all day long. And I'll take a loud drummer over a loud audience any day of the week. But if I can't hear the ride cymbal over the crowd chatter, how's anyone on the bandstand going to hear me?

Pickups suck, but for many of us they are a necessity of life.

[sonare]

No one has mentioned the DPA 4099 (guitar version). This is one of the best sounding mics available for PA or recording at any price, and in this case the price is $600 from Sweetwater. The sound is stellar and the rejection is amazing-- even with a ride cymbal 2 feet away.

In spite of the low profile and negligible effect on the sound of the instrument I have had bass players say NO. Frankly I will never understand the thinking behind forbidding something much less intrusive than a "57 in a towel in the bridge" on the grounds that it "changes the sound"-- and then it goes into an amp or PA.

BTW the pic is not mine-- IMO it makes more sense to point it at the fingers.

Rich

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by leddy

Pickups suck, but for many of us they are a necessity of life.

I dunno, I suppose a Beyer M88 and a good speaker will help you out as well as an amp and pickup, but it would sound more like you, right?

[leddy]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

I dunno, I suppose a Beyer M88 and a good speaker will help you out as well as an amp and pickup, but it would sound more like you, right?

I used an M88 into a PA for a couple of years. No pickup. It worked fine most of the time, but there would be occaisional rooms or situations where the other musicians want more bottom than that could provide without feedback. Maybe folks get used to playing with electric players and expect a different type of bottom end, I don't know. I'm a purist at heart, but I'm also a sideman and I can only stick to my guns for so long until I risk losing the gig.

[GZsound]

Well, I just returned from running sound at a three day bluegrass festival and had to deal with twelve different upright bass players. From raw novice to experienced musicians. And basses that were properly set up to basses that were literally junk.

The biggest problem is that the stage at the fairgrounds is a three foot high concrete slab with a concrete block back wall. Resonance reigns supreme.

I tried SM58's in foam surrounds stuffed under the string guard pointing at the bridge, I tried an Audio Technica bass/tom mic in a foam surround, I used my LR Baggs Para DI on those basses with pickups and one player had a mic mount installed and insisted on an SM57 pointed right into the "F" hole. Putting my AT 4047 on a stand in front of the bass was a disaster.

The best sound and least resonance was achieved with those basses with pickups installed and using the LR Baggs unit. One bass player insisted I use his pickup with no preamp through a DI into the PA.. That bass sounded terrible, thin, no bass at all and just a horrible sound.

We recorded the entire festival and I am waiting for the DVD so I can listen with a more critical ear and see what system worked best.

The biggest problem at a festival like that is that a showcase band or band scramble band will only play two or three songs and then there is another band coming up. I have five minutes between bands to get them set up..

I am considering buying a clip on mic of some sort to help reject feedback and get a better bass sound quickly. But there is still the problem of some players not wanting anything attached to their instruments. And if they want bass in the monitors all bets are off..

I welcome any and all suggestions.

[thejumpcat]

Over on TalkBass.com, one of the members recommended a Heil PR40. Any thoughts on that mic for upright bass in a live setting?

[TapeDub]

A Bass player I've played (Drums) with uses one of these...

Applied Microphone Technology Product Details Page

Sounded really good.

He said he saw John Pattitucci using one and tracked it down on the web.

Just checked their site which seems to be under construction, and there's an endorsement from George Massenburg too.

[stephandryan]

yeah i had a similar issue as yours and unfortunately the problem was as you said some players don't want a thing attached to their instruments. I wasn't able to go around it!

Originally Posted by GZsound

Well, I just returned from running sound at a three day bluegrass festival and had to deal with twelve different upright bass players. From raw novice to experienced musicians. And basses that were properly set up to basses that were literally junk.

The biggest problem is that the stage at the fairgrounds is a three foot high concrete slab with a concrete block back wall. Resonance reigns supreme.

I tried SM58's in foam surrounds stuffed under the string guard pointing at the bridge, I tried an Audio Technica bass/tom mic in a foam surround, I used my LR Baggs Para DI on those basses with pickups and one player had a mic mount installed and insisted on an SM57 pointed right into the "F" hole. Putting my AT 4047 on a stand in front of the bass was a disaster.

The best sound and least resonance was achieved with those basses with pickups installed and using the LR Baggs unit. One bass player insisted I use his pickup with no preamp through a DI into the PA.. That bass sounded terrible, thin, no bass at all and just a horrible sound.

We recorded the entire festival and I am waiting for the DVD so I can listen with a more critical ear and see what system worked best.

The biggest problem at a festival like that is that a showcase band or band scramble band will only play two or three songs and then there is another band coming up. I have five minutes between bands to get them set up..

I am considering buying a clip on mic of some sort to help reject feedback and get a better bass sound quickly. But there is still the problem of some players not wanting anything attached to their instruments. And if they want bass in the monitors all bets are off..

I welcome any and all suggestions.