first choir recording. opinions please!

[guosh]

hi guys,

i just had my first choir recording experience yesterday, and looking for some opinions. it was also a good opportunity to try out my DIY jecklin disk for the first time. a friend asked if i could help him record a gig - thus, no pressure since it was a favour and i also got to test out my jecklin

the venue was a small church, and i was recording a 20 piece choir. used my hebden 3010 omnis on my disk to a T+ UA-5 and 24/96 to my microtrack 2. mics were placed about 8 feet behind the conductor, 10 feet above the ground

ran into a small problem though - the threading on my right mic flange was giving me problems, and it made my right side about an inch further away from the disk than the left, so that wasn't really ideal

in any case, this is the unedited file in mp3 160kbps. looking forward to your comments!

[pkautzsch]

Nice sound, though to me the choir sounds a bit muffled in comparison to the steps at about 1:19. Room was quite dry. I would have expected a little more LF content - have you used HP or some other filtering during recording? Sounds a bit like a good cardioid.

Are the specs of the mics to be found somewhere on the web? Manufacturer's website is not too informative.

[Corran]

Hey guosh, I am interested to hear your new Hebden mics and the DIY Jecklin!

I agree with what pkautzsch has mentioned. The bass is a little light. Also it sounds a tad dry. Just how small of a church was it?

How do you think the Jecklin Disc performed compared to your previous recordings?

[guosh]

thanks! the steps at 1:19 were probably from latecomers walking in past my stand. it was an absolutely TINY chapel though. my mics were probably 1/4 of the room away from the choir and half the height of the room. i didn't manage to take pictures that day, but i've got some pictures from the choir members who were there before me

no filtering done at all, though i suspect my disk might be a little too absorbent. a friend i work with commented that at times it sounds like there's a hole in the middle. but i quite like it compared to past recordings. with the omnis the sound is much fuller, but when i ran it as split omnis in the past, it was really really roomy and beefy. i can upload some samples (of a jazz band ambience pair though..) if you're interested

on the other hand, it might be the rest of my recording chain as well. i tried running my mics with the grace m802 -> 192, and the lower end was overwhelming at times! i'm getting a SCA stereo pair done though, and hopefully it'll make a difference

pkautzsch: the specs for the hebdens tend to be spread out in their website. from their preamp bodies to their capsules, they usually have separate info on those pages. have you looked through those? on the other hand i'll upload what specs i have here in pdf

also, i've got the jecklin pictures up. in the end, i decided to add a layer of faux fur to this one. i've got another disk done without the fur though, just wanted to see if there was any difference.

i did some soundchecks before the actual recordings. recording 1 was much nearer and lower, whereas recording 2 was slightly higher and further... and i raised the mics once again before the performance started. wasn't sure what kind of sound to capture, so i figured i'd just try it all out

[guosh]

any other comments? i'm very open to criticism - in fact i positively enjoy it

i'm really looking to learn how to improve, so just be brutally honest. could i improve upon mic placement? does the choir's articulation seem muddy to you? should i change my mic patterns?

i feel that i'm not making the best use of my gear, but i'm not sure how to get the best out of what i do through my technique. what would you do if you had to record a similar group?

is choir recording different from recording an orchestra? my first impressions would be that it would be very different, as the different sections of the orchestra should have a sense of depth (i'm a bass trombonist), but would this be an issue with choirs? i always assumed that they were positioned SATB - thus no issue with depth. or am i wrong here?

i've also been having a bit of trouble finding the sweet spot when i do these recordings - because i'm not sure what it should sound like. unfortunately when i do my soundchecks i'm usually on IEMs or headphones so i don't know what i'm missing out as i do not have monitor speakers

thanks for the time though, bryan and pkautzsch, i'll take the issue on reverb and LFs into account the next time i run my rig. i'm just really keen on finding out how i can improve the sound, exploring the possibilities of fully utilizing my gear.

i think i should be able to get better sounds, and that the limiting factor isn't really my gear but myself - and till i'm able to bridge the gap, getting better/more gear isn't going to help much

cheers!

[sonare]

Hello from a recovering bass trombonist! The best choral recordings are done by the Brits. One of the best I've heard lately was produced and engineered by Simon Eadon-- it's "the Sacred Flame"-- the Cambridge Singers directed by John Rutter on the Collegium label. Other good recordings are on the Chandos and Hyperion labels.

The short version is buy a pair of Schoeps Mk2 omnis and space them about 18 inches, 9-12 feet up and perhaps the same distance in front of the choir. In a really "dark" room the Sennheiser 8020 are also quite good. You want to avoid mics with upper frequency peaks. Also the Royer SF12 ribbon is fabulous and captures the choral resonance even better.

It is important to hear and understand the difference between a "vocal" sound and a "choral" sound-- the former has lots of presence and the latter has lots of blend and very little "choral crunch" from the consonants. Unfortunately the less expensive mics do not do well here.

Record choirs in a very reverberant (at least 2 or 3 seconds) space and then compare.

FWIW I find the Jecklin to work best on chamber music. And orchestra is an entirely different thing!

Rich

[guosh]

hey rich! nice to see another bass trombonist here!

thanks for the advice, i've been listening to quite a bit of john rutter's work on collegium that i borrowed from a friend yesterday. just as you said, there really is a different sound to it then what i had in mind

right now, i'm figuring out how to get the recording to sound less in-your-face while keeping the articulations clean. do you reckon there's a way to do this without getting new gear? or is the high frequency peak in my mics causing problems? i usually record pretty close to the ensemble for fear of losing details, but do you feel i could have a further placement of my mics? because i tried them a little higher and it sounded a little too distant to me

also, what do you mean by 'choral crunch'? pardon me, haven't had much experience with choirs thus far... most of my work has been with orchestras and symphonic bands where being a part of those ensembles has helped. in the end i was just going in blind for the choir

i'll probably experiment with placement the next time i record them at the end of the year and see how that turns out. not sure i'll get a chance to record in a room with that kind of reverb time - usually they work in rather small rooms

thanks for the help, really appreciate it!

[sonare]

Originally Posted by guosh

hey rich! nice to see another bass trombonist here!

thanks for the advice, i've been listening to quite a bit of john rutter's work on collegium that i borrowed from a friend yesterday. just as you said, there really is a different sound to it then what i had in mind

My compliment does not apply to the older ones that were recorded by the BBC-- they are actually a good example of crunch when compared to the latest "Sacred Flame."

right now, i'm figuring out how to get the recording to sound less in-your-face while keeping the articulations clean. do you reckon there's a way to do this without getting new gear? or is the high frequency peak in my mics causing problems? i usually record pretty close to the ensemble for fear of losing details, but do you feel i could have a further placement of my mics? because i tried them a little higher and it sounded a little too distant to me

You are fighting a losing battle in a room that is not suitable for this sort of thing. Add mics with HF peak and you have already discovered that there is no ideal location. And we are assuming the choir can blend-- not always something to be assumed.

also, what do you mean by 'choral crunch'? pardon me, haven't had much experience with choirs thus far... most of my work has been with orchestras and symphonic bands where being a part of those ensembles has helped. in the end i was just going in blind for the choir

Listening is the only solution-- what the group sounds like in the real vs recording. Focus your ears on the sound of the vowels-- not on the consonants.

i'll probably experiment with placement the next time i record them at the end of the year and see how that turns out. not sure i'll get a chance to record in a room with that kind of reverb time - usually they work in rather small rooms

Then you will never get what you are after. It's not unlike a band in a bandroom vs a good hall. The sound needs a chance to bloom. Surely there are other choruses there?

Rich

[RickZ]

The attached clip is from a concert I recorded in the spring. Pics show detail of mic arrangement on stand, and location relative to choir. I've found that capturing good diction requires relatively close mics. Personally, I've never enjoyed 'typical' choral recordings that have a huge cathedral like reverb, although there are many done like that.

BTW, capturing good diction assumes that the director hammers the choir about that, not always a good assumption, unfortunately.

FWIW,
Rick Z

[sonare]

This is obviously a good ensemble. However, the recording could have been done in a studio-- there is no sense of the room at all. There is a universe of difference between this and a "cathedral" acoustic. And the recordings that have a genuine cathedral acoustic (over 4 seconds) are usually cathedral choirs, so it makes sense to record them in their natural habitat. The Priory recordings are good examples.

There is more to good choral sound than diction (which must be there)-- blend, dynamics, and color for starters. Of course if the client prefers a particular sound and you can supply it then the discussion ends there.

Rich

[Ernest Buckley]

I`m on a lousy system listening to this but the top end is a little too much for me in brightness. The sopranos are dominating, what else is new... right?

Other than that, my biggest gripe is the room. You might want to go for a church that holds around 600 - 1000 people and is carpetless. You`ll get a better reverb and can adjust the amount by mic placement. To me, a choir sounds best with some reverb, this room seems to have a 60ms delay going or somewhere around there and it just don`t sound right. Other than that, you did a good job for a virgin.

[Audiop]

RickZ,

any processing/EQ on your clip?


/Peter

[Larry Elliott]

Originally Posted by guosh

right now, i'm figuring out how to get the recording to sound less in-your-face while keeping the articulations clean. do you reckon there's a way to do this without getting new gear? or is the high frequency peak in my mics causing problems? i usually record pretty close to the ensemble for fear of losing details, but do you feel i could have a further placement of my mics? because i tried them a little higher and it sounded a little too distant to me

Articulation and blend are almost totally controlled by the choral performance and the acoustic space. If it is not in the natural sound you hear in the room - no equipment can create it. Believe me I have tried several times. Then I recorded a first class choir and wow - I didn't have to anything to get the sound, just decide where to place this mics.

The John Rutter recordings referred to earlier are 90% performance and room, and I know that Simon wouldn't mind me saying this.

Regards
Larry

[DannyL]

After listening quickly through... I think that the recording isn't so much bright as it is lacking in bottom.
The bass lacks definition. IT is a bit bright though....

I have recorded choirs for years... I have had the most success with SATB section mic'ing and orienting the pans to match the room and mic placement. Most often using Neuman U87's or other side address large diaphragm mics. (I do not like AKG 414's for choirs at all)

I have also used an L/R pair of Neumans or Gefels with great success.

You may or may not know but the KM84 was originally sold in the USA as a choir mic, to be used in pairs or sections.

As you can see I tend to favor neutral sounding mics for choirs.

See what you have in your arsenal...

Good luck

Danny

[RickZ]

Audiop,

Since I haven't gotten into the the habit of documenting what I do with audio once it's in the computer, I can't say for sure, but I most likely used a rumble filter EQ, and maybe Sound Forge (er, Sony) NR, since this chapel has horrendous air handling noise. Lately I've been using Voxengo Elephant to set final level of each piece. This clip peaks around -5dB, so nothing was squashed.

RZ

[guosh]

Originally Posted by sonare

You are fighting a losing battle in a room that is not suitable for this sort of thing. Add mics with HF peak and you have already discovered that there is no ideal location. And we are assuming the choir can blend-- not always something to be assumed.



Listening is the only solution-- what the group sounds like in the real vs recording. Focus your ears on the sound of the vowels-- not on the consonants.


Then you will never get what you are after. It's not unlike a band in a bandroom vs a good hall. The sound needs a chance to bloom. Surely there are other choruses there?

thanks rich, appreciate your advice. the group i recorded is actually pretty good. they've won quite a number of awards over the years, so i feel i didn't do them justice with my recording. but i see now the importance of the room. i'll try to persuade them to move to a larger venue for the next recording. i've not been in contact with other choruses yet, but they usually perform in concert halls rather than churches so its a very different sound

and regarding the focus on vowels vs consonants... no wonder! my first thought was to be able to capture everything. the moment i lost a bit of the consonants, i moved my mics nearer. thanks for clarifying, it really helped me understand it better

rick, i quite like your clip! its actually the kind of sound i had in my head before i did my recording, but i think i'll be trying to get more of the room in after listening to a couple of choir cds over the last two days and from the comments of larry and ernest.

the room i recorded in does sound rather small now that i've listened to my recording more critically. i've tried to use the waves IR1 to simulate a bigger room yesterday but it didn't really work out. in the end it didn't sound realistic enough to me, so i guess there really isn't a way out other than to find a good space... which works for me, as i prefer a purist approach to recording

it might be the gear i'm using as well. if i fail in persuading the group to relocate to a bigger venue, i'll probably make use of the opportunity to see how different gear can make a difference... maybe loan a pair of milab vip-50s and sennheiser 8020s, run them in their optimal positions (or at least the best i can get in that room...) through a better recording chain and post some clips up here

cheers everyone!

[RickZ]

RE: Trying to add artificial reverb to choral singing. I've spent quite a bit of time with many different plug-in reverbs, on recordings made in a very dry hall. I probably had the best results with PSP EasyVerb, but in the end, the version with no artificial reverb ended up sounding better. The 'verb always seemed to 'ding' the sound somehow.

I've attached a clip made with the same MKH8040 cardioid pair, in a modest sized, but reverbant church in Austria. The mics were even closer to choir, good diction, but the room, wow. There wasn't an ounce, or should I say gram, of absorbant material there.

Again, FWIW,
Rick Z

[sonare]

At first I thought this was a little close for me, but as I listened I realized that the mp3 artifacsts and compression were what I was reacting negatively to. My 8040s don't sound like this.

How bout putting up a 16/44.1 of the last half?

Rich

[sonare]

Originally Posted by Larry Elliott

The John Rutter recordings referred to earlier are 90% performance and room, and I know that Simon wouldn't mind me saying this.

Simon only did the "Sacred Flame" disc-- the Beeb remote gang did the others, and they are a big step down from Simon's work.

Rich

[Larry Elliott]

Originally Posted by sonare

Simon only did the "Sacred Flame" disc-- the Beeb remote gang did the others, and they are a big step down from Simon's work.
Rich

Simon also did the Mass of the Children and the newly released Christmas Mass

Larry

[sonare]

Are these Cambridge Singers?

Rich

[RickZ]

Rich,

Here is the last 50 seconds or so in .wav form (16/44.1). I'd been hearing people talk about mp3 killing ambience, but never heard it myself. I do hear quite a difference.

Rgds,
Rick Z

[sonare]

QUITE an improvement! I have never used cardioids for mains on a chorus, and while the 8040 is equalized slightly to have a better LF response-- the sound of the consonants makes them sound as thought there are accents on each of them-- probably a combination of mics and room.

You obviously have a good sense of where to place mics-- why not try a pair of omnis and see what people are going on about. Schoeps Mk2 or Sennheiser 8020 would be top choices for choral

Rich

[Corran]

Hey Rich, what do you think are the pros and cons of a stereo ribbon mic vs. an omni pair for choral work?

I'll be doing a big CD project that will include several concerts and recording sessions coming up soon, to be recorded in a very reverberant rotunda. I did an archive recording with a pair of Earthworks QTC-1's which came out pretty well but maybe a little too reverberant, so I was thinking about using my modded stereo B&O ribbon as the main pickup this time. I will be getting some Schoeps omnis soon but I'm not sure when. (Speaking of which, do think there is any difference between using MK2 caps vs. MK2S caps with an EQ to lessen the HF?)

[sonare]

The word "rotundra" strikes fear in my heart-- depending on the size. If the walls and dome are close enough to give audible first reflections you are hosed regardless of mics-- unless you did a close-up multi-cardioid approach and tried to work on it later. Notice I said "tried"--

Ribbon vs omni SDC I will always prefer the ribbon, but as I only really know the SF12 I can't say anything about the B&O.

Regarding the room-- I think the only difference in pattern between the stereo ribbon and omnis would be HF and transient response. I almost always use Mk2 as flankers for 2 reasons: they are down about 9dB in the mix so they give only a slight increase in transients, and if you have to get the mains close enough to put the sides of the group outside the 60 degree arc they really help keep coherent phase. Of course, unless you have fabulously quiet micpres you will have noise on the ribbon channels.

Using EQ to change HF response in a capsule is using an axe rather than a scalpel. If you must then use linear phase EQ and I would probably want to use the "blank canvas" of a Mk2 and add a lift when needed rather than try the opposite with a 2S.

Rich

[Corran]

Thanks for your insights Rich. The rotunda is indeed very large with a 3-story vaulted dome ceiling. It's still not a church of course but there isn't anything near here that would have the type of cathedral reverb that would be nice.

[sonare]

What is the diameter? For the record, a "cathedral acoustic" (in excess of 4 seconds) is not very good for recording anything that wasn't intended to be sung in that sort of space. The problem is that a typical American church is usually so dry it is on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Rich

[Corran]

Hmm, I think something like 50-75 feet in diameter. I could be wrong.

Around here we have plenty of those churches with practically no reverb (or worse, ringy reflections) so I meant that it is much more reverberant than those.

[guosh]

ok so i recorded the group again today. didn't manage to change the venue, but i'll try to do something about that in post. they understand the limitations though so its not a problem

here's a clip of the choir today, albeit with a change of setup as well - ortf pair with 2 omnis wide and further back. didn't use the ortf pair much in the end, just a small touch to add clarity

slightly eq-ed in a rush, but i'll be sitting down tomorrow to work on it. probably roll off the highs, and add a touch of reverb since its really too small a room for this type of music

i personally think it sounds better than my first try, but i'll still need quite a bit more practice

[guosh]

just edited the recordings with my laptop and iems as my desktop is down and monitors not usable. not sure how it would sound to everyone else with proper equipment, but here's the clip anyway

i've never been good with post, but i didn't have a choice this time. too many things went wrong during the session (ortf pair was right in the middle of a draft and i didn't have windscreens, no space to place mics wihout moving chairs)and i didn't have enough setup time to remedy things so here's a pretty desperate attempt to save my recording

does it sound weird? artificial? it never sounds convincing to me because i've been comparing it to the raw file and i wonder if i've convinced anyone at all please do lend me your ears! any help would be greatly appreciated!