first choir recording. opinions please!

[NorseHorse]

I just listened to the edited sample. It sounds like it's been low-pass filtered at 10k (ie. sounds like a 96kbs or 64kbs mp3). Having a smooth sound is nice, but I think it could use more high end. It would help it sound more "open". Is your first sample completely unedited? I'm curious to hear the untouched balance.

UPDATE: Just listened to it again, and it definitely sounds LPF and I'm hearing tons of mp3 artifacts common in sub 128kbps compression. However, my computer says it's 160kbs. Did this go through another mp3s conversion before the current one?

[guosh]

hi norse, thanks for the reply!
you're right in a way, i did a lowpass filter for my ortf pair around 12khz, trying to create the illusion of a ribbon's top end smoothness. the ortf pair had lots of wind noise though, so i had to hpf around 400hz as well

i dialed in the omnis much more, though eq-ed with a wide cut of around 6db in the 6khz range. the artifacts you're hearing are most likely my poor attempts at noise reduction and inappropriate reverb

the first sample i put up had the same eq for the omnis but none for the ortf pair, and no reverb and noise reduction - didn't notice the wind noise on my iems!

i just heard it on a pair of speakers and it does sound rather odd, so i'll have to get back to editing it again

[Corran]

Yeah it just sounds unnatural. Pull back all of your EQ by like 50% and see how that sounds. Maybe move the LPF up a few hertz.

It's funny, it seems like you should be able to EQ that "ribbon sound" but it just doesn't work it seems.

If you are interested here is a short piece I recorded with just a stereo B&O ribbon in the large rotunda I was talking about earlier. No effects except some light compression. This was a demo I did to sample different mics, and I preferred the ribbon over Schoeps MK2S spaced pair. (Yes I know I should be using MK2's but I don't have any.)

[jmit01gs]

Corran (Bryan),
I like that sound you got with the B&O. Do you know how closely it compares with the Royer SF-12 ?

[Corran]

Well, this B&O BM5 was custom modded by Mark Fouxman (pseudonym Marik), including custom machined neodymium magnets to replace the Alnico ones, new ribbons, and custom wound transformers.

Mark said something along the line of this mic being the equal or better than the SF-12. I do not own the Royer so I can't say myself. I do love the mic though!

Oh yeah I forgot to mention, I did use a pair of Fethead inline preamps for this as well to boost the signal.

[jmit01gs]

Can't seem to locate any similar B&O BM5s out there, especially with the custom mods you listed. Was this a one time build by Marik ?

If so, I'm guessing the closest thing available might be the Royer.

[NorseHorse]

Another stereo ribbon choral sample: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/new-p...-apollo.html#7

B&O ribbons can be found on eBay from time to time. AEA and Peluso also have stereo ribbons. And don't forget "low-end" stereo ribbons available from Stellar, PPM, Cascade, and others.

And we're just waiting for Audio-Technica to join in the fun.

[Corran]

Yeah BM5's come up on ebay occasionally. One was from Europe a few weeks ago and was BIN at $650 or so, which is a good price these days. They seem to go for $700-$1000 depending on condition.

If you want one immediately you can pay a premium and get it at Pro Audio Heaven, where they specialize in ribbon mics, and it will have new NOS RCA ribbons, but still have Alnico magnets, etc.

Marik mods them individually and you'd have to email him if you were interested.

Though the leg work is significant I can't recommend the mic highly enough, and after everything it still cost me almost $700 less than the cheapest used SF-12 I've ever seen, and way under the new price.

Christian, I hadn't seen that post. Sounds nice. I'd be interested to hear them side-by-side. And I hope Audio-Technica comes out with a stereo ribbon to compliment its new mics, I'd consider getting one.

[CPTenorII]

Originally Posted by sonare

This is obviously a good ensemble. However, the recording could have been done in a studio-- there is no sense of the room at all. There is a universe of difference between this and a "cathedral" acoustic. And the recordings that have a genuine cathedral acoustic (over 4 seconds) are usually cathedral choirs, so it makes sense to record them in their natural habitat. The Priory recordings are good examples.

There is more to good choral sound than diction (which must be there)-- blend, dynamics, and color for starters. Of course if the client prefers a particular sound and you can supply it then the discussion ends there.

Rich

Chorus should NEVER be recorded in a studio. What may be lacking is more neutral mics and a closer pair to accent midrange detail. I love the sound of the room though. Maybe it just needs a bit of EQ around 125Hz and 4khZ to 12kHz.

[guosh]

Sorry to revive a really old thread, but I figured it'd be better than starting a new one!

So I had my first choir recording in a year yesterday, and I wondered if it sounds any better. Basically it was a 20 piece choir in a small church performance, albeit one with quite a lot of movement which restricted my mic placement. Preferably I'd place the mic further back, but as I was only called in half an hour before the concert and went in without a soundcheck I thought it didn't go too badly.

The A/C was causing all kinds of havoc with my mic so I had to administer a little noise reduction, and of course a slight touch of reverb too

In any case, it's almost christmas, so enjoy winter wonderland! - a nice pop version arranged by Peter Gritton featuring a tenor soloist.


Cheers,
Guo

[mathieujm]

The noise reduction killed all the ambiance and generated a lot of artefacts. Could you give us something without it ?
JMM

[NorseHorse]

What a difference a year can make! thumbsup

[Flute-Picc]

Originally Posted by Corran

Yeah it just sounds unnatural. Pull back all of your EQ by like 50% and see how that sounds. Maybe move the LPF up a few hertz.

It's funny, it seems like you should be able to EQ that "ribbon sound" but it just doesn't work it seems.

If you are interested here is a short piece I recorded with just a stereo B&O ribbon in the large rotunda I was talking about earlier. No effects except some light compression. This was a demo I did to sample different mics, and I preferred the ribbon over Schoeps MK2S spaced pair. (Yes I know I should be using MK2's but I don't have any.)

I know this was a post from a year ago, but since this thread got revived, I just had to say that this clip was like butter to my ears. What a beautiful sound.

[guosh]

Originally Posted by mathieujm

The noise reduction killed all the ambiance and generated a lot of artefacts. Could you give us something without it ?
JMM

Here's the raw file


Norse: Thanks! What a difference a ribbon makes actually - after you and Bryan posted samples of ribbons on choirs I decided to give it a shot and grabbed a PPM ribbon modified by Michael Joly.


Cheers,
Guo

[Corran]

Originally Posted by Flute-Picc

I know this was a post from a year ago, but since this thread got revived, I just had to say that this clip was like butter to my ears. What a beautiful sound.

Thanks! As an aside, the chain was the B&O BM-5 mic -> a pair of FetHead inline preamps -> Zoom H4. Obviously the Zoom was the weak link, but it was just a test recording. I have a recording I did some time later of an excellent group, with the BM-5 centered, Schoeps MK2 pair as outriggers (which were new at the time!) and Schoeps MK-4 on piano, all into some decent pres and an HD24XR...it's really good but I don't think I should post it here unfortunately.

guosh, this sounds good! The AC is unfortunately very loud as you noted. Maybe just try a little EQ rather than noise suppression to get some of it out.

[amfortas2006]

Originally Posted by Corran

The AC is unfortunately very loud as you noted. Maybe just try a little EQ rather than noise suppression to get some of it out.

+1
that AC is damn loud. But maybe less noise suppression (not more then 6db down) would sound better. There would still be some AC noise,but less artefacts.

[guosh]

Thanks Bryan, I'll give it a shot and see what can be done. Think I'd better get reading about mastering again, really rusty after some time away.

As an aside though, how do you think I can improve the recording? I'm still pretty new to choir recordings and haven't had much chance to place the mics where I'd like to. After reading Rich's posts and listening to various clips including yours, I've established a certain sound I'd like to achieve, but haven't been able to experiment.

I feel my recording's a little too close in and results in quite a bit of the 'crunchies', as Rich puts it, and leads to the sopranos peaking considerably as well. Do you reckon it can be solved simply through adjustment of mic height? Won't the tonal balance change as well with height?

I'm still waiting for pictures of the event from the official photographer, but my basic setup was just behind the conductor, about 4 feet at most from the first row of choristers, but I tried to compensate by bringing my mic up to about 12 feet from the stage and pointed it slightly above the second row.

It's quite a learning curve to get a good choir sound I reckon, and at times I wonder if it's like what Rich said, that the equipment sometimes limits you. Personally I'm starting to have some doubts about my Profire 610 which I use for its converters and as an interface due to its propensity to clip despite a rather low output, but it might just be me... any similar experiences?

BTW, Bryan that sounds like quite a session you had with the B&O and Schoeps. Would love to have a listen if possible!

[mathieujm]

Guosh I very like your recording and the music. Really a pity this AC !

I tried to remove some from the raw file without removing too much music. But multiple mp3 encoding/decoding are not great so I made a flac file here

TechSmith | Screencast.com, online video sharing, Winter Wonderland Denois

JMM