Daw as live console?

[jsegbers]

Has anyone tried this? I have searched around and found a few people using ableton as a live sequencer (which seems to be common.)

My goal is to try and use logic 8 as my front of the house system for my group's PA system to replace a crappy Carvin board. I only need 8 mic channels to get by, because we are a 4 piece and the system is too small to go in depth close miking everything. It will be running 1 vox, guitar bass, kick, snare, and 2 toms.

I will be running the firepod to run to my mac, and main out to the crossover to the loudspeakers. 2 of the Line outputs will give me my monitor mix on seperate busses.

Has anyone tried to use logic, or any other daw in this manner? I know I am going to be fighting latency in this manner, but if I can get a better sound out of my daw (which i know is better than my carvin) then it would be a great way to go.

I have done a test run during practice and it worked out well sending monitors and what not.




Imagine running a cable snake that was just a 100 ft fire wire cable

[matskull]

Personnaly I'm pretty sure the latency would annoy me and I would trust a soundcard plugged into a PA screaming at 120dB spl.

BUT, I'm pretty sure it can work for some people.

I just don't like the idea of having a crash during a show and blast people's ears with some loud noise coming out of the soundcard into the PA because of a bug.

Originally Posted by jsegbers

Has anyone tried this? I have searched around and found a few people using ableton as a live sequencer (which seems to be common.)

My goal is to try and use logic 8 as my front of the house system for my group's PA system to replace a crappy Carvin board. I only need 8 mic channels to get by, because we are a 4 piece and the system is too small to go in depth close miking everything. It will be running 1 vox, guitar bass, kick, snare, and 2 toms.

I will be running the firepod to run to my mac, and main out to the crossover to the loudspeakers. 2 of the Line outputs will give me my monitor mix on seperate busses.

Has anyone tried to use logic, or any other daw in this manner? I know I am going to be fighting latency in this manner, but if I can get a better sound out of my daw (which i know is better than my carvin) then it would be a great way to go.

I have done a test run during practice and it worked out well sending monitors and what not.




Imagine running a cable snake that was just a 100 ft fire wire cable

[unitymusic]

Yes it is possible. From what I understand, the people that do this use Aux Sends as the channels instead of Audio channels, which helps with latency and does not use as much of the computers processing power.

[jsegbers]

I will only trust it if it does not let me down for a couple months, and my analog board will still be plugged in and I will be ready to swap in under 2 minutes if needed.

Logic 8 and a firepod has been very stable for me... Many people use mainstage live and they seem to run equally stable.


Im looking for suggestions on the core audio settings and any thing I can do to make this run stable as possible.

[jsegbers]

Originally Posted by unitymusic

Yes it is possible. From what I understand, the people that do this use Aux Sends as the channels instead of Audio channels, which helps with latency and does not use as much of the computers processing power.

If I do that I would still be able to use a channel strip eq and comp and possibly a gate on the kick and snare though correct?

Which reverb will get me by with the lowest tax on the processor? Spacedesigner is outta the question.

[unitymusic]

Originally Posted by jsegbers

If I do that I would still be able to use a channel strip eq and comp and possibly a gate on the kick and snare though correct?

Which reverb will get me by with the lowest tax on the processor? Spacedesigner is outta the question.

I can't answer your specific reverb question, but you would still be able to use processing such as eq/comp etc.. If you wanted to stay completely in the DAW just throw a plug in on that particular Aux track or create a new Aux for groups. I don't know enough about the specific workflow of this particular setup because I have never done it myself, but it is certainly possible to pull off with all of the same features and benefits of a traditional live sound system. Mess around with it a little bit, I'm sure you will be able to work it out nicely.

[Weasel9992]

I'd say no way once you start adding insert or send effects. The latency will choke you to death.

Frank

[Ca$h Marty]

Aren't there issues with running extra long firewire cables?

[space2012]

Originally Posted by jsegbers

Has anyone tried this? I have searched around and found a few people using ableton as a live sequencer (which seems to be common.)

My goal is to try and use logic 8 as my front of the house system for my group's PA system to replace a crappy Carvin board. I only need 8 mic channels to get by, because we are a 4 piece and the system is too small to go in depth close miking everything. It will be running 1 vox, guitar bass, kick, snare, and 2 toms.

I will be running the firepod to run to my mac, and main out to the crossover to the loudspeakers. 2 of the Line outputs will give me my monitor mix on seperate busses.

Has anyone tried to use logic, or any other daw in this manner? I know I am going to be fighting latency in this manner, but if I can get a better sound out of my daw (which i know is better than my carvin) then it would be a great way to go.

I have done a test run during practice and it worked out well sending monitors and what not.




Imagine running a cable snake that was just a 100 ft fire wire cable

Sonic Core Xite-1 0-latency DSP.

Audio Rail adat--to--cat5 converter box.

[jsegbers]

Originally Posted by Ca$h Marty

Aren't there issues with running extra long firewire cables?

Possibly... at the moment I am only using a 5 footer, just a thought I had not researched yet.


Is there anyway to measure latency in logic?

[AlphaDingo]

Try these:

SAWStudio by RML Labs

Welcome to RML Labs - The Makers of SAWStudio

There are demos for both.

[aussie_techie]

this has come up a few times lately but the answer always has to be the same.
Yes you can do it provided the latency doesnt bother you or the band. However you just cant trust native systems or any hardware that is not designed to be in demanding environments.

With all the time effort and money you would have to spend you may as well just buy a real desk.

[jsegbers]

Originally Posted by AlphaDingo

Try these:

SAWStudio by RML Labs

Welcome to RML Labs - The Makers of SAWStudio

There are demos for both.

Nothing out there is availible for mac. And it is quite pricey for me trying to get better sound for less money.

Originally Posted by aussie_techie

this has come up a few times lately but the answer always has to be the same.
Yes you can do it provided the latency doesnt bother you or the band. However you just cant trust native systems or any hardware that is not designed to be in demanding environments.

With all the time effort and money you would have to spend you may as well just buy a real desk.

I have a real desk, it is a c2400... I have effects and eqs on the board and one outboard compressor. I believe I can get better sound and efx out of the system this way.

[aussie_techie]

Thats just my point if your wanting a better sound you are better off with buying a better desk. Or better mics, better eqs, better inserts, fx, whatever.

If your wanting a better quality stable solution with out a huge outlay then upgrading one thing at a time in an analogue system is always the way to go. With a daw based system you will need to have power, cooling, redundancy, and environmental factors and some much more sensitive cabling all worked out first which will cost you and that still doesn't solve all the inherent problems of a native software based system.

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by aussie_techie

Thats just my point if your wanting a better sound you are better off with buying a better desk. Or better mics, better eqs, better inserts, fx, whatever.

If your wanting a better quality stable solution with out a huge outlay then upgrading one thing at a time in an analogue system is always the way to go. With a daw based system you will need to have power, cooling, redundancy, and environmental factors and some much more sensitive cabling all worked out first which will cost you and that still doesn't solve all the inherent problems of a native software based system.

Totally agree. As a musician the latency would drive me *crazy*. As the engineer the prospect of losing the whole system in the middle of a show isn't great either. Anybody who's worked a digital board live (audio or lighting) knows how bad it sucks to lose the whole show on the opening band. Yeah, you can re-load the show but it still sucks.

Frank

[deadears]

Originally Posted by jsegbers

Nothing out there is availible for mac. And it is quite pricey for me trying to get better sound for less money.

I have a real desk, it is a c2400... I have effects and eqs on the board and one outboard compressor. I believe I can get better sound and efx out of the system this way.

I don't know what a c2400 is, but if you think $500 for SAC is too much, then you should give up now.

You can run Windows apps on newer Macs using Bootcamp. If you have an older pre-Intel Mac, then you may as well get used to zero support from this point on from anybody, including Apple.

I think SAWStudio sucks for recording and mixing and is way overpriced, but the price is right on SAC, and they are leading the way as a live sound computer console. The claims are that the low latency is tolerable, as long as you use native SAC processing and plug-ins ...no third party FX, or the latency is out of whack.

SAWStudio by RML Labs

~deadears

[Stevil]

Originally Posted by space2012

Sonic Core Xite-1 0-latency DSP.

+1
while i'd have complete faith in my creamware card under a live situation, i'd never trust windoze.

[Barnabas]

I did this once for a small Americana-style group playing in a small coffee house. Guitar, bass, banjo, dulcimer, two vocals.

I used a Pro Tools 002 system controlled by a Mac laptop. The band wanted to record the performance, and there really wasn't room for my 32-ch sound board and a rack full of effects. Since I was doing this gig for free for a friend, I felt it was a perfect chance to try mixing the PA from the laptop.

The biggest problem was the guitar player complained about the delay in the monitor caused by the latency. I eliminated all plug-ins on his channel, and he still hated it. The delay did not bother the other musicians.

The computer locked up once. It continued to process audio at the current levels, but would not allow for adjustments. I rebooted while the band leader talked to the audience.

That was about three years ago, and I haven't tried it again since.

[Barnabas]

A year later I did do it again with a jazz band playing in a small club. This band did not need monitors, so I wasn't concerned about the delay in the monitors.

This time I needed more recording channels, so I took my Pro Tools HD system, which is controlled by a Mac G4.

This time it worked flawlessly two weeks in a row.

[amthompson]

Couple things here...
A.) I have to agree with the general consensus that running a DAW based live system would most likely cause more trouble than it's worth.
B.) a Carvin C2400 is not a "real desk"
C.) THAT BEING SAID, I own a c1600 and it is a workhorse of a little pro-sumer live mixer. If you can't come up with a pretty respectable sound out of a 4 piece band with that mixer, some decent mic's, and clean power from your amps, I'd have to say the problem isn't the gear.

Spend your time working on good mic placement to minimize feedback and maximize clean audio, proper gain staging, and learning the ins and outs of that board. The eq's sound pretty damn good.

[jsegbers]

Mostly we are playing clubs with decent boards, mackie at minimum. Im not happy with the c2400, especially with no sweepable mids. Thats why, for the few outdoor frat festivals and what not, I was looking to use logic to achieve a better sound. I dont enjoy doing live sound, I usually just fall into it because I know how.

I would run a sac, but I dont think it would work with the firepod, at least thats what i was told on a proaudio forum.

[rivalrysound]

I have done this a bunch of times, with no problems with latency. I used an alesis IO 26 originally, plugged everything into that, used drumagog on the kick, used some waves plugins and then bussed everything out into 2 channels on the board. I used aux sends within cubase for my monitor sends and I even recorded (original intention). As long as you have a stable interface, a hefty computer and some extra setup time you'll be fine.

[danijel]

Originally Posted by rivalrysound

I have done this a bunch of times, with no problems with latency. I used an alesis IO 26 originally, plugged everything into that, used drumagog on the kick, used some waves plugins and then bussed everything out into 2 channels on the board. I used aux sends within cubase for my monitor sends and I even recorded (original intention). As long as you have a stable interface, a hefty computer and some extra setup time you'll be fine.

What was your ASIO buffer set to?

With my current laptop and Nuendo 4, I'm afraid I'd have to up my buffer to 512 samples in order to have reliable performance in running 5-6 EQs and comps and recording 10-12 channels.... That's 11ms, which is unacceptable for direct monitoring..... or not?

[Ozpeter]

There's an emerging (currently free beta) app called "LiveProfessor" which might be of general interest to anyone considering using a DAW for live work - in particular the way it uses cue lists and snapshots. You have to add your own VST mixer at the moment, but there's a few of those around to choose from. Obviously latency problems can still cause the whole idea to fall over.

Features:

* As many VST plugins as your computer can handle.
Both effects and VST-instruments are supported

* Easy routing
The matrix view makes it easy to see what is patched where

* Snapshot automation of each plugin
Recalls all parameters of a plugin.

* Midi input and output.
To control instruments or to allow hands-on control of plugins

* Cue list
Multiple cue lists for recalling snapshots, changing routing etc.

* Support for MIDI hardware controllers
Any plugin parameter can be controlled with a midi message

* Fast audio engine to ensure low latency.
Using a standard ASIO-card you can have as many inputs and outputs you like

* Easy user interface for fast and simple workflow

ifoundasound

[casrec]

Last time I saw Death Cab for Cutie their front of house was run off of pro tools and a command 24. I saw Shiny toy guns at the Roland stage at namm and that was running through sonar. That is their whole purpose of their reac recording system. I use sonar with a lynx aes16 and I can get my latency down to where I can not hear or even feel it. I can only run about 20 plugins though as it is extremely demanding. Useing your daw as a live console is completely doable and people and large acts do it all the time. To make it efficient it might cost a little though.

[rivalrysound]

Originally Posted by danijel

What was your ASIO buffer set to?

With my current laptop and Nuendo 4, I'm afraid I'd have to up my buffer to 512 samples in order to have reliable performance in running 5-6 EQs and comps and recording 10-12 channels.... That's 11ms, which is unacceptable for direct monitoring..... or not?

either 512 or 252, I was recording 8 channels. I was getting around 7 ms and I highly doubt anyone can tell the difference between 7 and 11 ms. Now with the zed that I'll be selling shortly you could send aux sends from the board itself with no latency, or just use an inline mixer to record.

[deadears]

Originally Posted by jsegbers

I would run a sac, but I dont think it would work with the firepod, at least thats what i was told on a proaudio forum.

It would be a good idea to bring it up on the SAC forum. The developer visits frequently.

You can also download a demo and find out for yourself.

RML Labs Downloads - Demos

I've never liked SAWStudio DAW software because it is weak on features used daily in music production and audio post production, and it is very complicated to use. But the developer is in Las Vegas where he has spent much time working with live shows, so this may be more up his alley.

~deadears

[Tommy-boy]

I love my DAW. But I would probably not use it to record a live event. And I definitely wouldn't use it for any type of monitoring.

[dip]

Originally Posted by jsegbers

I would run a sac, but I dont think it would work with the firepod, at least thats what i was told on a proaudio forum.

Welcome!
SAC - SAWStudio / SAC User Group

[ddageek]

Used a PT 24 rig as a live console once all TDM plugins! WHAT A PITA !!the fact is on a DAW metering and screens aren't set up for live quick access! If all in one is what your after buy a small Digital desk of your favorite flavor!