Mixing Opera.

[davidvaldes]

Hi there.

I have recently recorded a "La Boheme" production for archival purposes. I´ve used two spaced omnis plus two outriggers for the orchestra, and three PZM´s (L-C-R) on stage for the singers, chorus and everything happening "on there".

My question is: what´s the normal procedure for mixing the on stage mics?

Thanks for your help.

[David Spearritt]

Hi David, can you give us a little more to your question. What are your main concerns? I would leave the PZM's open as much as possible to maintain a consistent ambiance except when foot thumping is occurring close by. Leave them panned LCR depending on where they were physically. No doubt you have a score, but if you know the work this will help.

[davidvaldes]

Thanks very much for your reply.

My concern is: if I pan L-C-R, the voice will shift in the stereo field together with the movements of the singers. I´m not sure if that´s desirable (maybe if the sound is intended to accompany a video?). If I don´t pan at all, image will be fixed but, again, I´m not sure if that´s "correct" (too mono, too much in the centre?).

My mic set-up was as you can see in the attached diagram.

Any classic, tried and true procedure concerning this issue, would be very much appreciated by this newcomer

Thanks for your help.

[Jim vanBergen]

PZM's can be tough, and I'd do more than one pass on this- one with hard L/C/R panning, and one more like 10-12-2 and another at 9-12-3 and see how the results turn out. A lot depends on position, hall, and the performers. I like to have some spatial movement from the vocal mics but not rarely is it hard across the space. That said, it is useful to have a good stereo image both for listening and video imaging. I can usually take ten minutes during a rehearsal and try the above to determine what works well in a given application. If you can get in for a rehearsal, make sure you try the options and see what suits your ears the best.

[7rojo7]

Get your main array sounding good and line them up with that, like you would a drumkit, or spots in a chamber piece or any other recording with an array and spots, make sure it all works in mono. You should have a pretty good level on the voices with the main array, use the PZMs (although I've never used them. I use Schoeps CCM21s for this, shock mounted on rycote holders) for reinforcement, you'll probably have to HPF them, use your ears for this, not numbers. If you nail the balance, the movement should even be entertaining. I've seen video with stereo audio, it's pretty neat.

[ptr]

Originally Posted by davidvaldes

My question is: what´s the normal procedure for mixing the on stage mics?.

Opera & theatre is movement is it not!

I would say that L-C-R is with out a doubt the first thing I'd go for (9-12-3 the second if the image is to wide) @ full blast, then rasing the orchestra match without overshadowing the singers! Most of the "stereo-image" will come form the orchestra anyway, so as long as you have a clear fix on the voices. I'd say njemas problemas, having someone walking L-to-R singing or in b-to-f of the stage, enhance the musical theatre experience!! ... The team I'm with have done 4-5 live opera broadcasts each year like this over the last 10 years and its works very fine! .. With one difference; we always use four Crown PCC's* as not to have a mike infront of the "prompter", it's quite awfull to have three hours of opera with someone wispering lines center stage...


/ptr

*as they seem less vulnerable then flat PCMs to sound backdraft from the orchestra...

[davidvaldes]

Good morning

we always use four Crown PCC's*

That´s what I´ve used: three Crown PCC160 mics.

So, compiling your advices:

1.- Try from hard panning to 9-12-3 to 10-12-2.
2.- Delay the stage mics in order to align them with the main pair.
3.- Maybe HPF them.
4.- Get a good orchestra/singers balance.

Will try and see where I get to.

Thank you very much for your help.

[fifthcircle]

There are several threads on recording opera in this forum. Do a search and you'll find some good stuff.

In short, I am not a fan of PZM's in a situation like that. Mic the singers and mic the orchestra so you can control them. The omnidirectional nature of a PZM isn't great for dig upstage. You'll also want some sort of mic up higher so the chorus sounds like a chorus instead of just the fiont row of singers.

Opera is also theatrical. I may close in the image on stage a bit, but as often I don't. Really depends on the positioning of my main mics and whether I am going 3, 4 or 5 across. It is also rare that the singers go to th extreme sides of the stage and a full panning will reflect that just fine.


--Ben

[davidvaldes]

In short, I am not a fan of PZM's in a situation like that. Mic the singers and mic the orchestra so you can control them.

There was no way I could do that given the situation: live performance, strictly nothing to be seen, no chance to hang mics over the choir, almost no budget, this being my first operatic recording experience... In my close to zero experience, micing them so I could have total control over the whole thing was a quimera.

Absolutely nothing to be seen, period (nice guys those at the theatre, eh? ), so my only chance was PZM´s (no hanging, no nothing...)

The omnidirectional nature of a PZM isn't great for dig upstage

.

I said PZM´s because of the plate mounted style, but in fact (as stated in the previous post), I´ve used Phase Coherent Cardioids (Crown PCC160´s, which, in fact, are supercardioid, excellently rejecting the orchestra at their backs).

Could you please elaborate a little bit more on why not omnis on stage?

You'll also want some sort of mic up higher so the chorus sounds like a chorus instead of just the fiont row of singers.

That makes sense to me but (asking from ignorance), doesn´t the hemispherical pattern of these kind of mics ("quarter-spherical", in the case of the PCC´s) help avoiding that effect? The polar pattern implies height (thus overpassing the front row of singers), and voices don´t project in a line, but radiate (depending of the frecuencies) in a more "round" fashion. All that, together with the distance between mics and choir (quite a few metres in this case), wouldn´t help avoiding that effect? (as I said, asking from ignorance; not trying to rebate you, but trying to understand your point "twisting" it a little bit to see where I get to).

Anyway, in this case, hanging mics over the choir was not an option .

Really depends on the positioning of my main mics

I´m enclosing a full diagram, see if that helps.

Thank you very much for your help.

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by davidvaldes

There was no way I could do that given the situation: live performance, strictly nothing to be seen, no chance to hang mics over the choir, almost no budget, this being my first operatic recording experience... In my close to zero experience, micing them so I could have total control over the whole thing was a quimera.

Absolutely nothing to be seen, period (nice guys those at the theatre, eh? ), so my only chance was PZM´s (no hanging, no nothing...)

Never said to hang... I wouldn't recommend that either. Cardiod mics on small desk stands or mounted to the stage would be fine and wouldn't be seen by the audience. There are plenty of small mics on the market ranging from the little Audix ones at the low end to Schoeps and Sennheiser at the higher end. I even made little mounts with atlas mounts on small pieces of wood. A bit of foam under the mic helped with floor reflections.

Most opera companies will allow foot mics to be seen as well. Heck, Major companies such as Houston Grand, the Met, LA and such will allow that.

I said PZM´s because of the plate mounted style, but in fact (as stated in the previous post), I´ve used Phase Coherent Cardioids (Crown PCC160´s, which, in fact, are supercardioid, excellently rejecting the orchestra at their backs).

Could you please elaborate a little bit more on why not omnis on stage?

Sure- it has to do with the dig into a deep stage and the ability to pull out voices when needed. It also has to do with the whole issue of isolation between the stage and the pit. A PCC would work better than a PZM for the exact reason you mention. I don't think it is a particularly good sounding mic (I much prefer the Sanken CUB-01 for a similar use), but it will work.

That makes sense to me but (asking from ignorance), doesn´t the hemispherical pattern of these kind of mics ("quarter-spherical", in the case of the PCC´s) help avoiding that effect? The polar pattern implies height (thus overpassing the front row of singers), and voices don´t project in a line, but radiate (depending of the frecuencies) in a more "round" fashion. All that, together with the distance between mics and choir (quite a few metres in this case), wouldn´t help avoiding that effect? (as I said, asking from ignorance; not trying to rebate you, but trying to understand your point "twisting" it a little bit to see where I get to).

Anyway, in this case, hanging mics over the choir was not an option .

Once again, never said to hang...

Hemispherical pattern aside, the mics are going to pick up what is closest. If you have a row of singers close to the mics, it will pick those up most. The 2nd, 3rd and further rows will not have the same kind of pickup. It just isn't the way that mics work. Getting the mics higher will help blend the choir. I usually find a spot either in the sets to mount the mics or inside the proscenium about 12 feet up.

When working with live opera, you need to think outside the box...

--Ben

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

(snip) Cardiod mics on small desk stands or mounted to the stage would be fine and wouldn't be seen by the audience. There are plenty of small mics on the market ranging from the little Audix ones at the low end to Schoeps and Sennheiser at the higher end. I even made little mounts with atlas mounts on small pieces of wood. A bit of foam under the mic helped with floor reflections.

--Ben

I second Ben's advice; I have used everything from Neumann KM184s to Earthworks SR77s to Schoeps MK21s to DPA 4021s on low stands or Atlas flanges as footmics on classical and modern operas and been VERY happy. If cardioid mics are available, I'd go for it!!

[David Spearritt]

We have also used cardioids on stands in the orch pit, poking up through the netting and hugging the stage edge, the mics just pointing over the edge of the stage at the singers. Worked well. Not sure if your local WH&S will be happy though.

Also used shotguns in the side stage lighting bins to get upstage singing. This was also a life saver.