Planing a Live Concert - help needed

[matico]

Hey Community!

I have to plan a live concert and could need some help.
Its a venue for 500 people and the genre is Pop.

If someone offered serious help, i`d give detailed information and a floorplan.

I am thankful for every help.

Best wishes

matico

[bishopthomas]

Seriously, man, you have the most vague questions. Of course we'll help but you need to ask specific questions. Another school project?

[matico]

as i said - if someone really wanted to help me, id give him information via private message.

its about technical rider, power supply, PA gear....something like that.

and yes its another project ;-) but im not into that live recording thats why id appreciate your help.

thanks.

matico

[tnjazz]

OK, fine. Here's Iggy Pop's rider: TSG Backstage: Iggy Pop

That will at least get you started.

[matico]

i dont really know if this was a serious answer.

i could send serious helpers the floorplan via pn and then lets see.


thanks.

[Jim vanBergen]

Matico,

I am afraid you're getting off on the wrong foot with this group, my friend.

The elusive nature of your post is not really in the vein of this group. Furthermore, while people are not against helping you with another school assignment, we are working professionals. As such, are often being educators, mentoring young people getting into the business. Because of that, we don't just start gushing about "well, do this and this and this" because there are so many variables to cover. The vague direction of your post gives anyone with a serious knowledge base little to go on.

If you told us some more, we might be able to help.

How about this: for 500 people, pop/rock, do you need
a sound system design?
an event plan?
a stage layout?

Are you simply looking for what speakers to use? What split to use? What mics? If you have a tech rider, then why are you asking us to help?

I'm hired to do this all the time- world class acts at private events from 100-500,000 people. Several other people here as well, have what you're asking for in their back pocket. But you don't throw the keys to the maserati to anyone who asks for a ride, do you? Not to say we don't want to help you, but so far, we can't do anything with what you're asking- and this is your second topic like this.

Please help us to help you. And I really want to know where you are in school, what program you are studying, who/what your teacher is and what the class is about. I think you owe us that much. Otherwise, people will think you're simply trolling this forum, and that we can't have.

Warmest regards.

JvB

[bishopthomas]

To add to what Jim has said so well: This is a public forum. The questions are public as well as the answers. The reason for that is so that everyone can learn from the exchange of information, even if it's years later. So the PM thing isn't really the way we work around here.

Just curious, where are you from?

[Remoteness]

Well said, Jim & Thomas.
If I might add...

We share ideas in this public forum; it's what we do around here.
And, I believe we do it well.

By sharing our ideas and concepts in this public (online) round-table we not only help you with your dealings; we also help everyone else that may have a similar situation.

If you open up to us we most assuredly will open up to you.

Get with the program, so we can all win!

[ohmoka]

Originally Posted by matico

Hey Community!

I have to plan a live concert and could need some help.
Its a venue for 500 people and the genre is Pop.

If someone offered serious help, i`d give detailed information and a floorplan.

I am thankful for every help.

Best wishes

matico

Matico, I suggest before opening a new thread do more research in previous threads and if you can not find the info you want please think twice the way you will ask for help and the way you will conduct the thread. The last thread you opened got really bad and this one seems to have the same direction.
I don't intend to be rude. Cheers thumbsup

[Enginearing]

You're going to need to be more specific, and get over whatever it is that makes you think that withholding information is the way forward.

When is your concert?
What is your role? (are you the promoter or production manager etc - helps to know so information is taylored for your situation

It is hard to provide information to help you without knowing specifics of what you are trying to achieve.

This forum is truly a valuable resource with rich veins of all sorts of knowledge; some of which could be of use to you. So far several people have offered to help you, though you still have not helped yourself. This is concerning especially since the last thread you started was riddled with the same issues (unspecific vauge etc) and though many people advised you of this and suggested ways to improve your discussion, the lesson has obviously past you by.

[matico]

Hey everybody!

Ok...thats what i expected.

See, how can i give you more specific questions, when even I dont get them? I really really appreciate your constructive replies and I am convinced, that you all know what you are talking about.

So let me break it down again:

I have to plan a Live concert for 500 people, the genre is Pop and i should be the audio engineer. They organizer wants a Technical Rider (stageplan, gear, mixer settings). Furthermore appropriate PA gear, time planning of the entire event and the needed power supply.

Thats all what I have.

I attached the floorplan to this post and hope you have a look at it.

To my person:

I am 22 years old and come from Berlin,Germany. For two years I study audio engineering and I am about to finish next month.The last semester was about live engineering but I am not really into that and I dont like it, thats why I try to find some help here. Studio work is what I enjoy.

So hopefully this one gives you a little more input about what I have to do.

Thanks again

greets

[Enginearing]

that's a very narrow room... ( its a little hard to make out) at best 8 metres wide... (hope its not 3...)

you have a list of the instruments in your band, so you should be able to figure out how many players you have (don't forget BVs this is pop after all).

with that knowedge you should be able to:
A: put together a stage plot containing all players
B:figure out how many foldback sends you will require (wedge sends, IEM sends etc)
C: have a look at each section of the band and think about what lines you want from each section.. you should be able to piece together a comprehensive channel list.

After which you should start to see how many inputs and outputs will be required for your act...(are you running a split FOH/monitor systems?) and therefore get an idea of what consoles the engineers will require...

as you piece your technical rider together (google for some examples) remember to add things like outboard (if utilising analog), radio mics, IEM systems, comms systems etc...
most riders will also contain some alternatives to the brands you prefer, and also things like the capabilities of the PA (what SPL @ mix position etc)

without much info on your venue it would be hard to suggest a PA (is it to be hung or groundstacked) but i don't think you can go far wrong with d&b Audiotechnik (maybe a decent C-series rig) (should be plenty of d&b around Germany) you may also wish to spec delay speakers in the bar area if there is a wall dividing the bar from the main room.

hope this is a start to get you thinking...

[Jim vanBergen]

With a room size like this, I'd suggest three possible PA's, though there are hundreds:

Power: 1500 KVA external generator or Power Distribution tie-in capable of no less than 60 Amps per leg 220V AC.

It's important to notate a custom power distribution; you could put in a note saying "site survey indicates there is a power tie in of 100 A, three phase available for audio tie-in and 400A for lighting", or "no large power available, event requires 5000KVA diesel generator parked next door with Cam-Lok feeder running to audio & lighting power distribution system". Does this help?

You should generate a basic stage plot that indicates the instrument, every mic and DI on the list, wedge placement and power placement. Have you seen a tech rider and stage plot before, or do you need one?

As a rough for PA, why not consider:

D&B (2 C7 tops over 2 C7 subs)
Meyer (2 CQ-2 over 2 650-P subs per side )
L'Acoustics (2 ARCs over 2 SB118 Subs per side)


-Front of house & monitor consoles: PM5D RH, digico D1, or Digidesign Profile, or one of each

-Splitter: either copper (48 ch of Whirwind, XTA, BSS, Klark-Teknik, etc two way iso split) if using or fiber if using DiGiCo D1 or D5 or digidesign Profile with local and stage racks.

-Monitors: 2 sidefill speakers (CQ-2, L'Acoustics 115XT HQ, etc)
-one wedge per performer unless they require IEMs (Meyer UM-1P or 115 XT HQ are good start)
-drum sub for drummer in addition to wedge

live mics.....do you need choices here, or help?

Place monitor console Stage Left or onstage if you have room, or if you really don't think you have it, say "monitors run pre-face aux from FOH mix console" and do the monitors from the FOH console. People do function that way often for club gigs of this size.

Place FOH console a reasonable distance from the stage, in the center of the room if possible, on a platform to get above head height.



This is a starting point...


Does this help?

JvB

[matico]

Hi!

Great replies!Thank both of you! I guess thats a great starting point and probably enough for this project.

I dont think, that a monitor mixer is needed, i would do it with the FOH mixer. The mics and the stageplan are already in the bag.

But what i want to know is whether i should go with delays in the middle of the room.I mean two delay speakers in the bar area are indispensable but what about some in the middle?

Thanks again guys i really appreciate your help.

greets

[Murton]

By the looks of the room is might do well to have the top boxes throwing out long, the second top boxes throwing midium, possible a third set throwing short and maybe a centre front fill or similar.

So you would have 2 sets of subs per side. 2 or 3 tops per side and a top for front fil, all angled to provide decent coverage for the entire room. I wouldn't go with delays in the bar as the bar staff need to be able to hear drink orders and people need a way to get away from things to chat etc.

[matico]

Mhh ok i didnt consider that...thanks!

Just another question to the power supply - i found, that you have to sum up the power, which every component needs and calculate 20% of headroom. But i have a problem with the unit of measurement - for example, i have 10 components with a total of 4000 Watt power, what power do they need? I mean electricity is not in Watt but in Amps, isnt it?

Do you understand what i mean?

greets

[Enginearing]

for a 500 head venue any of the rigs Jim mentioned should have the legs to get the gig done without delays in the main room. (if budget allowed I'd take 3xArcs 2xDVsubs and 1xSB218 per side or add a B2 per side to the D&B).

Volume of delays in the bar of course can be set where comfortable most venues appreciate things like this....

[Enginearing]

refer to Ohms law... the current will depend on your local voltage. the 100amp wire in Jim mentioned will be sufficient. you could probably get the gig done on 2x 32amp supply, but its always good to be safe and have more available than you need... split your mons amps and PA amps etc

[jwh1192]

matico,

i hope i am not out of line in saying this appears to be a bit over your head ...

why not team up with a local sound company and produce the event with their help .. this way you get the job done properly and you learn something first hand from qualified professionals .. which it sounds like you will be yourself in the coming years ..

i am also sorry you were treated the way you were when you first posted .. but as Steve Remote said .. we are here for the open exchange of ideas / technical and creative ..

we are all professionals & friends here .. do not be afraid of losing a gig or saying something wrong .. someone will tell you you are wrong and that is the point here .. to learn ..

cheers and good luck on your future in sound .. albeit a labor of love

john

[bishopthomas]

John, this is for a school project. I don't think he's ACTUALLY playing promoter in real life, only in this after school special.

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by matico

Mhh ok i didnt consider that...thanks!

Just another question to the power supply - i found, that you have to sum up the power, which every component needs and calculate 20% of headroom. But i have a problem with the unit of measurement - for example, i have 10 components with a total of 4000 Watt power, what power do they need? I mean electricity is not in Watt but in Amps, isnt it?

Do you understand what i mean?

greets

Yes, to calculate a load in amperage, you take 4000 watts and divide by your voltage, which in Germany is 220 , right? That gives you 18.19 amps of drawn/required power, though the reality is, any of the systems I specified should really never draw more than 15 amps a leg across the PD unless you are really driving the sub power. Regardless, the PD I specified is 5 times more than you would require... and as was mentioned before, a 30A service would suffice.

Hope this helps!

JvB

Has your teacher discussed ohm's law?

[aussie_techie]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Yes, to calculate a load in amperage, you take 4000 watts and divide by your voltage, which in Germany is 220 , right? That gives you 18.19 amps of drawn/required power

Volts * Amps is Volt-Amps (VA). Watts is a different measurement, sometimes they work out the same and sometimes they don't so you can't rely on the above calculation.

Of course as long as you have enough headroom in your supply it doesnt matter. In IMO if there is any unknown you should always over spec the power supply. For only 500 people you should only need a single 32amp supply at 400V for sound and a second supply for light. In fact the last show i spec'ed for 500 people we ran everything off a single 32amp 415V supply.
This brings up another point in regards to voltages which you may not be away of. 3 Phase voltages look like strange numbers to most people however to get the supply voltage you simple multiply the single phase voltage by the square root of 3. So we use a single phase at 240V which is 415V 3 phase.

[matico]

Hey guys!

Thanks for your replies! I try to figure out if this is sufficient, but I think so.

The laws of Ohm were not discussed....All in all i am not satisfied with the last semester but thats another story.


Thanks again, maybe I'll get back at you. I appreciate your patience with newbies in this forum like me asking vague questions, I try to improve that.

greets

[Remoteness]

thumbsup

[matico]

Hey!

Sorry but theres one question left :-)

What about some kind of a splitbox and safety?I mean a box where i have 6 Outputs of electricity or something like that. And of course the safety.

Any ideas? What do you take for that purpose?

thanks and greets

[bishopthomas]

It's called a distribution panel and I believe has been discussed a bit. A 100 amp single phase distro should do all you need. If by "safety" you mean the ground, then yes there should be a ground, neutral, and two hots into your distro.

[matico]

Is it possible, that you give me a product link for such a distro? To be honest, I cant really imagine what it is like.

By safety I meant something like a fuse, which is usually integrated in such a box I guess. Is it?


greets

[aussie_techie]

Something like these
POWERWISE - Power Distribution Units
Jands - Power Distribution

3-phase supply down to multiple single phase outlets each with RCD and MCB.

[DanDan]

Matico, if studio engineering is like chess, the live engineering is like 3D chess!
It's not easy, you will not be able to do it. I recommend that you get an experienced engineer to come with the equipment. Perhaps one of the band has an engineer who would take on the job, or recommend a PA company with engineer to do it.
I note your comment 'but I am not really into that and I dont like it, thats why I try to find some help here. Studio work is what I enjoy'
That's honest. So don't do this gig, it will eat you.
DD

[matico]

-> thats a school project :-) but thanks for the advice

to aussie techie: are these products suiteable for what i need (32Amp /400Volt) ?

Thanks for the links,

greets