Tascam DR-100 vs. Marantz PMD661 (Audio Quality)

[Nityananda_SCSM]

Hi everyone.
I do field recording in very crowded, noisy, unpredictable and equipment-dangerous environments. I need a good portable 2channel XLR recorder ideally with analog limiters.

There are three options under $1000.

-Tascam DR-100 Portable recorder ($430 street)
-Marantz PMD661 Portable recorder ($600 street)
-Edirol R-44 Portable Recorder (4 XLR inputs, $995 street)

The Zoom H4n does'nt seem to be very consistent sync wise, making it a bad choice for people who want to sync their audio up to video later on like me.

I previously had the Edirol R-44, and I liked it and recommend it. It was just too big for me (not handheld) and the onboard mics seemed kind of inferior, although I never tested that out. I sold it thinking I could find a good handheld one with limiters and now I see the market is very sparse.

The new Marantaz PMD661 looks perfect in every way, except NO LIMTERS! What an oversight on Marantz's part, very lame. (I know I could add Sound Devices limiters but that makes it expensive and as big as the R44. Are there other good portable external limiters like Sound Devices MP-1, MixPre?)

So now I'm looking to buy the only handheld XLR recorder with analog limiters under $1k, the DR-100. Can anyone give me some feedback on it? Do the limiters work well? Is the audio quality OK? I know it doesn't have XLR or TRS line inputs but I can live without it if I have to. Should I try to go with the PMD661 and just go crazy watching my levels? DR-100 Pros and Cons...?

Thanks for the input
-Chris

[surflounge]

it ain't under $1000 but you know it will work...
702T Portable Audio Recorder | Sound Devices, LLC

[Don S]

Originally Posted by surflounge

it ain't under $1000 but you know it will work...
702T Portable Audio Recorder | Sound Devices, LLC

You can get it for 1650 from Ebay. I have one, they are amazing and well worth it!

[Nityananda_SCSM]

Heh I knew someone was going to say that...
Yes, it's nice to know that if you have the money there is an obvious choice out there.
But the Tascam can be gotten for around $350....
And I really can't afford $1650, or whatever.

Plus, the Edirol R-44 ($995 street) compares very favorably to the Sound Devices 702T ($2500 street.)
No timecode + other pro features, but 4 preamps instead of two, onboard microphones, very very decent preamps and AD converters, etc.

I'm just not that pro you guys, and besides, haven't you heard there's some sort of recession-y thing stalking around out there?

People who have used the DR-100 please give some feedback.

And thanks for the input/fuel for my gear-envy fire..

[Don S]

Originally Posted by Nityananda_SCSM

Heh I knew someone was going to say that...
Yes, it's nice to know that if you have the money there is an obvious choice out there.
But the Tascam can be gotten for around $350....
And I really can't afford $1650, or whatever.

Sorry. Didn't mean to be wise-ass. Look into the modded edirols. Hopefully Norse will weigh in one this. He owns and uses the R-44 and could probably give you the good and the bad.
I did work with the Tascam for a week at a festival. Even with spoken voice, it did not sound very good. You might have better luck with the R-44.
Cheers,
Don

[rumleymusic]

I have a DR100. It is an excellent recorder. The converters are very good, sound quality is very good, it DOES have XLR inputs with phantom power which are not that bad at all. The limiters work fine in emergencies though it can still overload if taken too far.

My favorite parts about it:

Two switchable power sources.
Pre recording buffer
track increment during recording
Primarily external controls.

[Nityananda_SCSM]

Thanks so much for the info Rumley. When you do (accidentally) engage the limiters, how do they sound? Do they squash the audio in a very harsh unpleasant way or do they salvage the sound relatively nicely?

[rumleymusic]

Depends on how much. If it is occasional and only a few dB, it is not noticeable.

[oudplayer]

The Fostex FR2-LE is another option, in the $500-something range. I like it (for sound quality, quality of mic pres, interface) more than any of the Marantz solid state recorders (I've tried the 620, 660, 661).

[Nityananda_SCSM]

How do you think the audio quality + limiting function compares between the Fostex FR2-LE and the Tascam DR-100?

[Wayne]

Originally Posted by Nityananda_SCSM

Plus, the Edirol R-44 ($995 street) compares very favorably to the Sound Devices 702T ($2500 street.)
No timecode + other pro features, but 4 preamps instead of two, onboard microphones, very very decent preamps and AD converters, etc.

I see you are here after all.

The R44 as I found out does not have input protection limiters, they are after A/D.

My question remains (and this is the forum to ask it) is why not determine the loudest level (for the give input/situation) and set the input a little below that? There is very little penalty to fixing level in digi' later –much as you would have to do with the likes of something like an R44.
Part two is- What is a limiter that is fast enough to protect A/D (no look ahead allowed -analog : >) , but 'musical?

[Nityananda_SCSM]

Wow are you sure? That is unfortunate to hear, I had just about convinced myself to buy another R-44! Not to be rude, but may I ask what is the source of the information?

Thanks so much for letting me know that before I just bought another one..
Why don't manufacturers include built-in analog limiters!!!!

Guess I better call up Tascam and Fostex and find out the exact details of their limiters...

Oh, and yes this question keeps being posed to me.
"Why do you need analog limiters in the digital age, when you can just keep your levels safely low-ish and then raise them in post?"

I am recording devotional Kirtan and audio-for-video in India.
The content that I record is often very loud, uncontrolled, unpredictable, and has huge dynamic range (from hard to hear to hurts your ears just standing there, without warning.) Often times the singers are not musicians at all, but just people off the street who are attracted by the spontaneous joyful nature of the traveling kirtan parties (like caroling) and join in. Because of the spiritual/inspirational nature of the events, people sometimes just shout, yell, "WHOOP!" etc. to express their feelings. The whole experience is very beautiful to me, and often even very musically pleasing when your standing there, but it is difficult to record and very difficult to avoid clipping.

I also record traditional devotional kirtan in a more planned way, in a temple or hall somewhere with mostly known-to-be good musicians. We have time to set levels and move mics around, etc. But these musicians are still completely untrained and unused to recording, and sometimes they lean into the mics, lean away from the mics, and yes, randomly yell and "belt it out" to express their feelings too!

So for someone in a studio or just conducting basic field interviews, etc. a device without limiters shouldn't be a problem. Play it safe and deal with a little bit of noise later on in post. But for me I feel like they are a necessity, and I've got lots of ruined material from clipping that is motivating me to go a safe route..

Hope that answers your question, and thanks very much to everyone for your knowledgeable advice, as you can tell I am pretty much a well-meaning noob
-Chris

[Wayne]

Originally Posted by Nityananda_SCSM

Wow are you sure? That is unfortunate to hear, I had just about convinced myself to buy another R-44! Not to be rude, but may I ask what is the source of the information?
Thanks so much for letting me know that before I just bought another one..
Why don't manufacturers include built-in analog limiters!!!!

Guess I better call up Tascam and Fostex and find out the exact details of their limiters...

Oh, and yes this question keeps being posed to me.
"Why do you need analog limiters in the digital age, when you can just keep your levels safely low-ish and then raise them in post?"

No, it is not always being asked- that was me at HRBBS.
But to continue- I don't want to imply you don't want exactly what you're saying- more just trying to open up the question.
I would consider perhaps some practical experiment. Set your recorder for the loudest 'peak possible then record some quiet music. Bring the music up in 'post, how dose it sound?

R44..? As always I gravitate to my favorite page' on any of this stuff -the block diagram. (-pg81 .
http://www.rolandsystemsgroup.com/im...44/R-44_e1.pdf
And no, they didn't say it in the text/spec as far as I have found.
Edirol R44 'sensitivity vs 'level

Just to be clear, I am not one of the 'remote gurus here, (that's why I believe we are in good company coming here) but I do remain quite amazed of the dynamic possibilities of 24 bit.

[Nityananda_SCSM]

Hm. Very interesting. Glad there are smart people around that check this stuff..
I wrote emails to Tascam, Fostex, Marantz about their PMD670, and Edirol for good measure, asking them to explain their limiters and if they were before or after the A/D process. I will report my findings.

Actually I get that question all the time, when I call tech support, when I post on different forums, when I talk to studio owners, etc.

People generally seem to think that "overload protection" analog limiters are not very necessary with modern 24bit technology and the quality of current mic pres / converters. And I suppose they are right, I will defer to the opinions of those more experienced then myself. But because the "peaks" that I get are sometimes super crazy, to prepare for that I would have to record so low as to get a pretty noisy and detail/richness lacking final product. If I was a better engineer and paid close attention to my levels, mic placement, etc. I could probably get away with no limiters for the majority of what I record. But I know that the limiters as a safety net would be useful to me, and so that's why I am trying to find stuff out there that's got them.

As far as the question of them being truly necessary in this day and age goes, I'm not really commenting on that. From what I hear (and what the market shows) the answer is no.

But as a consumer who is prone to mistakes and recording very unpredictable content, the limiter safety net feature is one worth searching for. If only I had the budget to get the best of all worlds and get a Sound Devicesstike~!

But by all means feel free to use this thread as a discussion for the neccessity of "overload protection" limiters, I would love to hear others weigh in on it!


**********************************
Enjoying the discourse...

[rumleymusic]

Well, limiters are good for accidents. Analog limiters work just fine, and do not need look ahead technology because that is not really how they work, and they can generally operate safely as long as the source is below the analog input headroom of the system (which is generally higher than the converters).

24bit recording does not mean you can record louder sources without clipping, I have heard that from some people and it is just misinformation. 24bit allows you to record with more headroom and retain the resolution, so you can set your gain lower than you think you need to, and be sure you don't clip.

[Nityananda_SCSM]

Information on Analog Limiters in the PMD670 and Edirol R-44 Portable Recorders

From the tech departments of Marantz and Edirol..

Edirol R-44:
"Thank you for your interest in our line of EDRIOL audio field recorders. The R-44's limiter is analog and digital mixed like the R-4Pro. When you turn on the limiter, analog gain goes automatically -12dB down for prevention of digital distortion and after that passes through the digital limiter. After that the signal level goes +12dB back up again for matching total signal level.

The limiter threshold is -10 dB relative to digital full scale."

Marantz PMD670
"The limiter on the PMD670 is analog. It will bring down audio levels
that exceed the limiter threshold. This is more of a basic limiter and
may not catch all sounds such as quick transients as the attack time is
fixed. This is placed before the A to D conversion. All of our digital
recorders that have limiters work this way.

If you need more control over your audio signal, you may want to
consider using and external mic preamp and limiter with adjustable
attack and release times. You can then take the line output of those
devices and connect to the PMD670 line input to record your signal. "

Waiting on Tascam DR-100 and Fostex FR-2LE responses..

By the way it's nice to structure posts in such a way that they are findable and clearly informative for a googler that comes across them searching for information, you never know, you could be that googler next time... ; )

[Remoteness]

Google is your friend for sure. thumbsup

[Wayne]

Originally Posted by Nityananda_SCSM

Information on Analog Limiters in the PMD670 and Edirol R-44 Portable Recorders

From the tech departments of Marantz and Edirol..

Edirol R-44:
"Thank you for your interest in our line of EDRIOL audio field recorders. The R-44's limiter is analog and digital mixed like the R-4Pro. When you turn on the limiter, analog gain goes automatically -12dB down for prevention of digital distortion and after that passes through the digital limiter. After that the signal level goes +12dB back up again for matching total signal level. ...

Yep. Then as lowering the level actually prevents the distortion -the limiter rather than protection becomes along the line of something one might then add for the effect of it.
Hardware Waves L1 anyone?

[PMoshay]

I have a 661 and love it. VERY solid unit that you can depend on.
I record into it via the digital input every show from our Digi venue system via spdif.
The few times i have used the mics to record a rehearsal, it sounded very good too.
Battery life is amazing.
I highly recommend the Marantz 661 as an all in unit.

I also have a Sony D50. To me the internal mics in the Sony sound very good and the mic limiter function in the Sony is fantastic...... but is not as good as not slamming your input.
The Sony D50 seems to only accept consumer digital inputs via fiber optic input. I tried many ways to get digital signal into it from a pro digital device and it just does not work.
as long as the bit stream is a consumer signal, it will lock. It did not accept digital signals from PT, Digidesign Venue, TC Finalizer, Weiss DS1, Crane Song HEDD.

All this being said, if you really want to record incredible sounding 2 track stuff, Get a Korg MR series 1bit recorder....... nothing sounds better that i have heard...... and its analog easy.

[rumleymusic]

The Sony D50 seems to only accept consumer digital inputs via fiber optic input. I tried many ways to get digital signal into it from a pro digital device and it just does not work.

Probably because it is expecting a SPDIF signal and most interfaces only supply multichannel ADAT from the optical outs.

[PMoshay]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

Probably because it is expecting a SPDIF signal and most interfaces only supply multichannel ADAT from the optical outs.

i've been thru all of that. Believe me, i know what everything is outputting.
TC Finalizer as well as all the others can be switched to stereo spdif on the lightpipe out.
The Sony is a no go with them. If anyone else has had luck with it let me know, i've contacted Sony service & support a few times about it and also sent them the unit back.
Digital in does not accept pro standard, only consumer.

I've also used the Hosa converters from AES to Lightpipe/spdif.... no go as they don't change the bitstream from pro to consumer.

[SaschaP]

Bump for same question. Is anyone using the DR-100 with success?

[JEGG]

No one has mentioned the HD-P2. This is very capable, very flexible, has good mic preamps, excellent battery life, etc. Very highly recommended. Very dependable, terrific interface and available information, and a file system that leaves you *with* your recording if something fails. I have two, and one had one glitch on once occasion. Never another hiccup. In that case, I didn't loose any information, and didn't loose any program material either. This was designed by people who knew what was needed in a professional recording device. If you're walking around with it, be warned that the switches rattle! They appear flimsy as hell but all have remained very solid electrically. The speaker is very useful and has adequate volume. It records a very nice big full bodied sound with decent mic's. Has FireWire interface-yea! Comes with international power supply. And nice FW cable.

I have been using a friend's DR-100.
Here's my view: The on board mic's are just absolutely atrocious, but no noisier than any of the others. Again, it's not just the noise, it's that they're terrible.

(BTW, the one mono onboard omni mic on the HD-P2 is surprisingly good.

Surprise, surprise, the XLR inputs seem to have good preamps behind them. They are certainly quiet. You could use this box for something serious.

This piece of kit is just weird. There are a few great things about it, and there more than a few things that simply don't make any sense whatsoever. For example, it is almost impossible to adjust the volume of the headphones, because of where that pot is relative to where you plug in the headphones! The included speaker is pretty much useless, inadequate volume for anything, usually has a buzz (they all do).

The dual battery system is surprisingly flexible, and offers some very useful options that aren't immediately apparent until you use it.

However, it seems to now (after working very well) be reporting inaccurate levels and leads to some faulty switching/shutdown.

It had been doing really well with phantom power and battery life, but something seems to now be amiss.

If they would have just chopped the entire upper third of the unit off, and left just the XLR's, etc., everyone would think the thing is a real steal.

As it is, there is all that junk (including 4 useless microphones) that just cheapens the whole thing.

Mechanically, the thing is surprisingly well built, the switches and very solid, etc. The XLRs are non locking, but that has not been a problem. The DR-100 has a very odd form factor, and relatively slick surfaces. Holding it in one hand is a little scary until you get used to it. (OTH, it has little rubber feet which keeps the thing well anchored to most surfaces.)

But why did they have to use a proprietary Li-ion battery? There are currently no equivalents.

Oh, BTW, the adapter/charger does not come with the unit. It does charge via a USB cable, however. AA's require user supplied charger. With adapter (5v) it takes about two hours to charge Li-ion, with USB it takes about 6 (I think). Also, remember that the adapter is not an external charger-Li-ion needs to be charged in the unit.

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

24bit recording does not mean you can record louder sources without clipping, I have heard that from some people and it is just misinformation. 24bit allows you to record with more headroom and retain the resolution, so you can set your gain lower than you think you need to, and be sure you don't clip.

Standing on the left of the street you have the street at your right hand while standing on the right of the street you have the street on your left hand.

The street is what it is.. only our chosen point of reference did change. :-)


/Peter

[AudioNovice]

I just bought the PMD661 and love it.

I primarily use it with a Sound Devices 302 and run line in but I have used the PMD661 mic pres and they sound very good. I'm looking forward to recording a couple of things where I won't need to carry the 302 because I only need 2 channels.

Since it's got S/PDIF in I have the option of running external pres and my Benchmark ADC1.

Functionally it's the best 2 channel portable recorder I've used. The layout it easy and intuitive. It's built well and runs 5 hours on 4 AA batteries. Pretty hard to beat in my opinion.

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by JEGG

The dual battery system is surprisingly flexible, and offers some very useful options that aren't immediately apparent until you use it.

However, it seems to now (after working very well) be reporting inaccurate levels and leads to some faulty switching/shutdown.

It had been doing really well with phantom power and battery life, but something seems to now be amiss.

An update: the battery issues mentioned have been entirely sorted.

[Flea]

Originally Posted by PMoshay

I have a 661 and love it. VERY solid unit that you can depend on.
I record into it via the digital input every show from our Digi venue system via spdif.

Hi PMoshay... Hi guys, I've searched everywhere, read the instruction manual and can't seem to find an answer to my query!

Don't mind me asking: Can the 661 record at 88.2 via its SPDIF input? It'll also accept AES signals right? I'm thinking of using a Lavry AD10 to do ADC at 88.2 into the Marantz. Any reply would be greatly appreciated!

[jnorman]

just for reference, i just posted some sample clips that were recorded with a tascam dr-100 in a thread entitled "How much reverb?"
How much reverb? (samples)

i found the unit to be quite good, and it can be bought new at amazon.com for $320. it was solid, very easy to use, and the two internal preamps performed admirably.

[PMoshay]

Originally Posted by Flea

Hi PMoshay... Hi guys, I've searched everywhere, read the instruction manual and can't seem to find an answer to my query!

Don't mind me asking: Can the 661 record at 88.2 via its SPDIF input? It'll also accept AES signals right? I'm thinking of using a Lavry AD10 to do ADC at 88.2 into the Marantz. Any reply would be greatly appreciated!

Here's a link to download the user manual that should be able to answer that.
Marantz 661 Manual

[Flea]

Originally Posted by PMoshay

Here's a link to download the user manual that should be able to answer that.
Marantz 661 Manual

Thanks for providing the link Peter... I did mention in my previous post that I've already read the instruction manual for the answer, but could not find it!

It seems like the recorder can only record analogue to 44.1, 48 and 96khz, however, I thought there might be a chance that it can also record to 88.2 if it was fed such a signal digitally via its SPDIF.

Read lots of reviews and videos but no one seems to mention whether this is possible. I currently record stereo digitally into a Sound Devices 744T via an external ADC at 88.2 and use it for almost no other purpose. Was thinking of selling the SD recorder for the Marantz and use the spare cash elsewhere.