Piano Mic'ing

[RedWallStudio]

I've always used a stereo pair of LDC's on piano and have always had the high end keys in the right speaker and the low end keys in the left... mostly because that is how the piano is visually which makes more sense to me. But a player today said I have it backwards and the the high end should be in the left and the low end should be in the right because thats the way the audience hears it. I've been recording piano for several years now and never gave it a second thought... now I'm questioning my logic.

Which way do you guys have it panned?

[narcoman]

well he's talking nuts because i've NEVER seen a gig where a piano player is "front on" to the audience!


Nearly always side on. As for panning - it makes absolutely no difference, but for solo piano i do very very little panning - but i do run outriggers in addition for "spacial setting".

[Tonio Ruiz]

I totally agree with narcoman, it's like in drums, sometimes I mix the drum kit as being the audience and sometimes I mixed it like being the player, it's all a matter of what the mix asks for

as for the piano, i think it should be the same regarding on which other instruments you have laid there and what ever works better for that particular track

I have usually record pianos with 2 mics like u described, but a few days ago I recorded a piano in a nice room, so, as it was for a vox/piano track, I decided to place some more mics to play with later on, so I did 3 mics close to each area of the piano, low/mid/high, and then I placed 2 room mics like 12 feet away from the piano to add ambience, I haven't mixed it yet, maybe I'll use them, maybe not, but I certainly will give it a try

[Fletcher]

If he's the client pan it the way he wants it panned. If he's an ancillary player on the session do what the client wants [and if the client has no opinion, do what you want].

FWIW I've always done left hand, left speaker - right hand, right speaker... or dead on mono.

Peace.

[studiostuff]

Nobody except a piano player hears a piano left hand/left speaker... right hand/right speaker wide.

Most folks hear the piano from the reflected sound bouncing off the raised lid. (OK, we're talking a grand piano with the lid open).

Most of the time, for me, piano sounds best as a mono-ish source panned where you like in the mix.

If it's a solo piano recording, pan as you like. I think hard left and hard right sounds unreal.

[Corran]

If you see a piano in a classical recital, lid open, the low strings are to the right (because they are longer) and the high strings are to the left. If you are close enough you can kind of hear it in stereo but not really in general.

You didn't mention what genre you were recording for. If it's classical, I'd pan it correctly with bass - right and treble - left, but then I would just use a stereo pair in AB or ORTF a little ways outside of the lid (or in a concert hall) and not have to worry about it. Jazz, sometimes the whole thing panned to the left as a point source. If it's pop-oriented, then do what the client wants or whatever you like, but I guess it's more common to do it how you've done it, bass - left and treble - right?

Also it's important to note the sound doesn't come out of the keys, so the physical appearance of the keys doesn't particularly matter.

[t-hiho]

I think this totally depends on what else is going on in your mix. I always try to choose my panning in relation
to the other content. So if muddy sounding rhythm guitar is panned on the left side, it could even be perfect to reverse the pianos panning as seen from the players view.
I know so many people who even connected their hifi speakers the wrong way... ;-) Of course, we don't wanna work for those, but what I'm trying to say is: just pan it that way, the mix itself requests...

[Eric Greedy]

context of the song.

what the producer says.

Wide stereo often is not the right perspective. Instead: mono (or near mono) panned in the field; relative to the mix.

[RKrizman]

I'm a piano player, so I'm used to hearing treble right and bass left. And that's how the beautiful babe sitting on the bench next to me hears it. So everyone else can go suck it.

-R

[Greg Curtis]

Wide-panned, close-mic'ed piano is nasty and tacky.

But worse is live, wide-panned, closed mic'ed piano. I remember attending a live jazz performance at the Jazz Bakery in Culver City, L.A. The live mix guy had the piano's low in the left/high in the right across 40' of stage, and the little trumpet soloist sitting all alone in the middle. Bizarre!

[narcoman]

doubly bizarre if you're sat at a front table in the audience and everytime you get a run on the piano it shoots across the stage! I really don't like wide panned piano in any circumstance! Cheesey and horrible!

[Baz]

I record piano on almost every session here and used to obsess about this a few years ago but have been mixing from the players perspective for one simple fact: as a listener - sitting out in the room where that piano is being played - it's one giant mono instrument for all intents and purposes, so mixing "stereo" from the listeners perspective makes little sense to me...

[unit7]

+1 on not wide panning piano. On jazz mixes I use to pan full left/1 o'clock, with the treble side mic to the right. The other way around (treble side panned full left) I sometimes feel that when there's a piano solo it tends to get a bit too much on the left side. However I wouldn't mind panning the piano to the right instead (11 o'clock/full right). Then I would pan bass mic full right and treble mic 11 o'clock. I guess...

[Leon EA]

Originally Posted by narcoman

doubly bizarre if you're sat at a front table in the audience and everytime you get a run on the piano it shoots across the stage! I really don't like wide panned piano in any circumstance! Cheesey and horrible!

There is definitely something wrong when it sounds like the piano is 888 keys wide instead of 88 keys. tutt

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Leon EA

There is definitely something wrong when it sounds like the piano is 888 keys wide instead of 88 keys. tutt

ha ha !!

I've been at a gig like this at the Jazz Cafe in Camden, London. The audience can get close to the stage and the PA is, from that position, very wide - obviously. The gig indeed had the piano panned in such an extreme way....888 keys indeed!!

[Ollie]

If it does not collapse well to mono, fogetta bout it.

Originally Posted by Baz

I record piano on almost every session here and used to obsess about this a few years ago but have been mixing from the players perspective for one simple fact: as a listener - sitting out in the room where that piano is being played - it's one giant mono instrument for all intents and purposes, so mixing "stereo" from the listeners perspective makes little sense to me...

[Baz]

Originally Posted by Ollie

If it does not collapse well to mono, fogetta bout it.

Not sure if you're adding to my point and are agreeing, or saying that with my thinking, if I can't collapse to mono without the bottom falling out, it's moot. If the latter, I agree whole heartedly. I'm constantly collapsing to mono and am very cognizant of what's happening mono, especially seeing that I use 3 mics on the piano now.

[fhames]

[QUOTE]Wide stereo often is not the right perspective. Instead: mono (or near mono) panned in the field; relative to the mix.[/QUOTE/]

Wide panned piano looses focus in a dense mix. It's all over the place.


Bryant - Hames Music

[Ollie]

Yes, I am agreeing with you about that.

Originally Posted by Baz

Not sure if you're adding to my point and are agreeing, or saying that with my thinking, if I can't collapse to mono without the bottom falling out, it's moot. If the latter, I agree whole heartedly. I'm constantly collapsing to mono and am very cognizant of what's happening mono, especially seeing that I use 3 mics on the piano now.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by RedWallStudio

...
Which way do you guys have it panned?

Stereo-ish! Not wide as a football field... but enough room so that each note can fill and occupy its own space without stomping all over other notes. (By the way, an audience will never hear anything remotely stereo from a piano, but every player instinctively knows: bass is left, treble right.)

This is solo piano I'm talking about... you gotta mix it with other stuff, all bets off.

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[Quint]

I agree. Unless it's a solo piece I don't like wide panned piano, or anything for that matter. Even then, I don't really like wide panned piano. In a rock mix I like mono piano to be honest. If it's a solo piece I like a mono mic making up the majority of the sound and then the stereo mics making up the accents to the sound at a lower volume.

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

I'm a piano player, so I'm used to hearing treble right and bass left. And that's how the beautiful babe sitting on the bench next to me hears it. So everyone else can go suck it.

-R

Guess that means we need to redo the Angel City Project... tutt

For me it really depends on the style of music as to how it is mixed and panned (and mic'd for that matter). I usually put the high mics on the left and the low on the right for jazz. For the more traditional stuff, I pan the low to about 1 o'clock (and drums are exactly opposite). The reason for that is that it puts the solos out in a part of the mix where it doesn't have to fight the rest of the band. In a rock situation, that isn't an issue so I may be more likely to approach it from a "pianists" perspective.

--Ben

[Piedpiper]

I like to mic a piano ORTF but at least 4 feet away, and with the lid completely off. Then I can pan it hard without it sounding weird. In any case I pan to simulate a natural audience perspective. That means treble left and bass right for solo, or, in ensemble, often treble left and bass center. Personally, I don't relate to using more than two mics. If I want more room I just move the mics further out. But I'm a less is more kinda guy.

[beingmf]

mic'ing techniques aside: how many percent of listeners a) have their speakers plugged in correctly, b) will care about a perspective?
(if it's an audiophile jazz recording, ok, then...)

[lambro]

SF Symphony has right side of piano to audience for most performances


and the point of reflection is well taken


when you are 20+ rows back, and add in some room for the pit, its a sonic swirl

[roostert]

How 'bout recording the stereo image you want to hear......ie.....wider or narrower, by adjusting the mic's? Then you can pan hard left and right, and it only sounds as wide as you intended.....or......you can fix it later in the mix......your choice....

[Calistro]

Almost everyone at some time in their life has sat at a piano and played it.
I cant say this about any other instrument.
So this one instrument deserves the player's perspective.
bass on left treble on right.
You dont have to make it wide if you dont want to.
Sometimes wide panning leaves a nice hole in the middle for ? a vocal.
Craig Calistro
CalistroMusic.com
Pro Audio Sales

[RonT]

Originally Posted by Corran

If you see a piano in a classical recital, lid open, the low strings are to the right (because they are longer) and the high strings are to the left. If you are close enough you can kind of hear it in stereo but not really in general.

You didn't mention what genre you were recording for. If it's classical, I'd pan it correctly with bass - right and treble - left, but then I would just use a stereo pair in AB or ORTF a little ways outside of the lid (or in a concert hall) and not have to worry about it. Jazz, sometimes the whole thing panned to the left as a point source. If it's pop-oriented, then do what the client wants or whatever you like, but I guess it's more common to do it how you've done it, bass - left and treble - right?

Also it's important to note the sound doesn't come out of the keys, so the physical appearance of the keys doesn't particularly matter.

???? Base strings on the right? What chu talking bout Willis?!

[audibell]

Last year I recorded the Beethoven Pno Concerto 2 and used an LDC in the curve, inside about a foot and a foot over the mid strings, slightly favoring the bass side. The aspect, about 11 o'clock, came mostly from my main pair and the mono mic strengthened the sound during the three solos without any weird width. The pianoforte was player's right side to the audience and on a long stick. If it were Bach, w/out orchestra, I use schoeps in ortf, back 6 feet and omni flanks, balancing to taste. I think a piano-only recital deserves some width-assistance but still narrowish and not the 888 keys mentioned earlier. Of course, if the a/c MUST be left on, a pzm on the floor is probably all they need.
rgds, WT

[Corran]

Originally Posted by RonT

???? Base strings on the right? What chu talking bout Willis?!

tutt

Have you been to a piano recital?