Piano Mic'ing

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by Calistro

Almost everyone at some time in their life has sat at a piano and played it.
I cant say this about any other instrument.
So this one instrument deserves the player's perspective.
bass on left treble on right.
You dont have to make it wide if you dont want to.
Sometimes wide panning leaves a nice hole in the middle for ? a vocal.
Craig Calistro
CalistroMusic.com
Pro Audio Sales

I suppose you would mic a guitar from beside the players head as well? your method makes no sense to me but that's what makes the world go round.

and round and round...

[The MPCist]

Or you could mic it the classical audience way : piano/pianist facing the right side of the stage so the bass is far middle and the treble is near middle.... mono with reverb on bass... (joke)

[asplashofcitrus]

Originally Posted by The MPCist

Or you could mic it the classical audience way : piano/pianist facing the right side of the stage so the bass is far middle and the treble is near middle.... mono with reverb on bass... (joke)

For the win!

[RonT]

Originally Posted by Corran

tutt

Have you been to a piano recital?

Yeah I am always the one playing! But I understand what you are saying. My focus was actually sitting at the piano.

[Corran]

Ah yes, see it makes sense to you, but for getting an accurate picture "from the audience" it would be the other way 'round.

[msmith]

For pop music, id say anything goes...

[Shureman]

Walter, Hello from Pete - fancy meeting you here!

Before I get started, I wish I could remove every lid from every grand piano and burn them all. The notion that a flat piece of wood in the shape of the piano's harp, made to fit the furniture, would just by accident be the ideal acoustical sound deflector has always seemed stange to me. It is to my ears a terrible sound deflector creating many unpleasant reflections and distortions like a cheap megaphone. Lidless pianos sound so good, so pure toned, and record so well too. I've always wanted to design a proper deflector for pianos in concert situations, which would have to be carefully suspended over the piano and disperse the sound in 360 degrees, but Steinway has never seen fit to contact me!

Anyway, I'd like to offer up some techniques I use, which work pretty well for me and my clients. I record a lot of piano performances. I'll provide some audio samples I've recorded using them to let you guys judge and expound upon. The audio samples are strictly for technical study purposes. I'd like to stay friends with the people you hear in the samples.

The first is a classical piano soloist at a local competition. When I began recording these competitions in the early 80's, competitors asked me to record from several rows back in the hall, because they could never hear what they "sounded like from the audience." Most commercial recordings of that period were recorded in that fashion as well. I usually obliged them, but always prefered a more in your face sound, with the right and left channels swapped so left side was bass, right side was high, hopefully with a smooth transition between the two. Seemed like most non-piano players preferred this as well, so they could experience what sitting a t the piano was like (cheap thrill). I've noticed more and more commercial recordings now are very dry, very in your face, but left to right does not spatially translate to bass to high notes. The sample here does. The piano is at full stick. I used a single shure VP88 midside, fields reversed, parked about three feet upstage from the far end of the piano, about six feet up, mic angled to match the pitch of the piano lid.

Piano mic placement excerpt 1 - solo clas.mp3 - DivShare

The next sample is piano and orchestra. Same mic, parked about 10 feet over the full stick piano which is centered in the middle of the front of the stage. The mic stand is also pulled back into the audience about ten feet. No other mics were used. The piano is very present, a bit of a mismatch with the orchestra sound, but not too bad. High-lows ar spatially mixed. This is pretty much what the audience hears after the first five rows. The main control of the balance between piano and orchestra is the angle of the mic. Straight into the belly of the beast, lot's of piano. Positioned more horizontally, less piano. Just takes a little practice to know your hall.

piano mic placement excerpt 4 - piano co.mp3 - DivShare

The next is from a jazz trio concert. I used three stereo mics, one trained on each instrument. The piano was on the left at full stick, the sax, though he wondered a bit was mostly in the crook of the piano, the bass was slightly behind the sax, just to the right. The piano, at full stick was miked in the same fashion as sample one, only I did not flip fields. I was not sure how this would effect the left-rightness of the other instruments, and at close range, audience members would have heard the left to right of the piano as it really came out. I did pan the entire piano sound slightly to the left.

Freddie Freloader.mp3 - DivShare

The next sample is a solo stride grand piano, in concert. Here the stereo mic is placed facing straight down over the opening where the music stand shelf would have been (had he been using music. The lid is shut. I hesitate to tell you the mic - oh well, here goes - I was in a bind and used my Zoom H2 set on a wide stereo spread. It was about 18 inches above the piano, oriented with the left capsule facing the pianist, the right capsule facing the piano strings. The track was then crossfaded into the main room mic. The fields are not flipped. Please keep an open mind! I had to be at another gig at the same time, so I set this up an hour before the show, turned on the recorder, and hoped for the best.

piano mic placement excerpt 2 - solo str.mp3 - DivShare

This last excerpt is a nice trick if you are short on mics, and need to record someone singing at a grand piano (sorry, it only works for grands). This live recording was done with a Shure VP88 (what else - they are just so easy to use and so forgiving), with a pop screen, positioned as close to the PA voice mic as possible. Takes a little engineering to have everything stable, and not create too much clutter on stage, but the balance is remarkably good between voice and piano. I synced it with a room mic and was able to pull the voice slightly to the left, piano, slightly to the right. Unfortunately, the strings ended up on the right, which is a bit disconcerting.

piano mic placement excerpt 3 - singing .mp3 - DivShare

I apologize for the AM radio sound of these samples. After multiple mp3ing to get them on this site, they have lost a lot of life, but I hope they serve the purpose of illustrating balance and spread of different piano recording situations I have encountered over the years. Upright pianos are a whole 'nother thing, which I'm still struggling with. Any suggestions? (mics in front, in back, inside, top lid open, top lid closed, bottom panel on, bottom panel off, etc...). Since they come in so many designs, and can be placed almost anywhere on stage, including flush against a far wall, I always dread when that's all I have to work with.

[Lord Fear]

I've made more Piano/Pop records than I care to think about. It's always the same (at least for us) Yamaha C7 specifically the one from 4th street recording if we can, if not any C7 will do. Tuned by Keith Albright. (a must) than 2xU67's on the high and low strings. the low 67 about halfway down the length of the low side of the piano and the high on the same plane. compress to taste, i like neve compression. than if you wana get super duper awesome add a mono room mic say M149 or C12 or U47 to blend in for some "spread"

i can point you to examples but I don't like to name bands in threads. no need to get into any dick measuring contests.

[Shureman]

Originally Posted by Lord Fear

I've made more Piano/Pop records than I care to think about. It's always the same (at least for us) Yamaha C7 specifically the one from 4th street recording if we can, if not any C7 will do. Tuned by Keith Albright. (a must) than 2xU67's on the high and low strings. the low 67 about halfway down the length of the low side of the piano and the high on the same plane. compress to taste, i like neve compression. than if you wana get super duper awesome add a mono room mic say M149 or C12 or U47 to blend in for some "spread"

i can point you to examples but I don't like to name bands in threads. no need to get into any dick measuring contests.

Is the C7 isolated in it's own room? Lid up or down. How do you deal with the mechanical noises of the piano (damper whoosh, pedal thumps?).

[Nishmaster]

How do you deal with the mechanical noises of the piano (damper whoosh, pedal thumps?).

Back up the mics.

The best piano sound is not under the lid. Nobody sticks their head into a piano. I'll do a pair of KM84s in ORTF about six inches to a foot above and behind the player to the left, pointed towards the center of the action. If I want it a little brighter, I'll move the mics to the right shoulder to pick up the reflections from the lid. Usually this is augmented with one or two sets of room mics at medium and far distances. Last time it was two U87s in M/S at medium, and two Kiwis down the hallway.

Unless your room is truly awful, or you have isolation needs that require otherwise, don't worry about the distance difference between this setup and an under the lid setup. I haven't ever found it to be any less dry than under the lid, and it avoids the usual mechanical noise as well as tightens up the stereo image from being too large and indistinct.

[Shureman]

Originally Posted by Nishmaster

Back up the mics.

.

I guess I need to clarify (I almost always " back up the mics so Nishmaster and I are in total agreement). My question was about those people who do place mics, sometimes multiple mics under the lid, such as Lord Fear seems to suggest he does in the previous post - or did I misread it?. So to those under-lidders I have these questions:

1) I'm curious how they deal with the thumps and squeeks even the best maintained pianos produce. Seems like you could eq a lot of the thumps out, but doesn't this seriously affect the overall timbre?

2) Except in an on stage PA situation (eg. where cranked up moniters are present) where isolation is crucial, It just seems like close multi-miking a piano is a rather strenuous exercise in breaking down and reconstructing the sound instead of just reproducing the sound as a "backed-up" mic pair would do. There must be some good reasons to make this effort since so many top flight people do it. Please inform.

[Greg Curtis]

Originally Posted by Lord Fear

. Tuned by Keith Albright. (a must)

Keith us truly a secret weapon for us here in L. A.

[chris@theblue]

yoshi's in east bay, uses two cartiod LDC's lid open. the mics aimed at the sound board, not hammers. with the phase correct its easy to adjust, mono to check. i use this in most pop jazz or latin. not so good for classical
you can adjust the left and right pan 9:00 3:00, or 9-2 this brings the high end in, adjust volume to bias high or low. . .
C

[chris@theblue]

HPF @60-80hz, this takes care of most pedal noise,
i have a nice C5 tunned for the session. . .
i thought the thread was live piano ?

[Lord Fear]

lid open. let that shit rock into the room. and yes keith rules. what a cool old guy. never forget piano is a percussion instrument. which is something that a lot of midi sounds would have us forget. Transient is your buddy with piano. don't be afraid.

[Mark Kaufman]

You're all wrong as wrong can be.

This guy specifically instructed me to pan right to left. It's the only way.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by Nishmaster

... Nobody sticks their head into a piano....

And nobody sticks their head into a tunnel constructed infront of a kick drum. NEXT!

Originally Posted by Shureman

...
1) I'm curious how they deal with the thumps and squeeks even the best maintained pianos produce. Seems like you could eq a lot of the thumps out, but doesn't this seriously affect the overall timbre? ...

Truth to tell, it's only very amateurish piano players who treat the pedals like some kind of poor man's percussion, stomping away like they are casks of grapes to crush. Good players are raising and lowering the pedals with the same sensitivity they bring to pressing the keys... sure, there are pounders/hammerers, and in extreme cases you might need to dip an EQ, but these sounds won't vanish at the lid either, nor be held in by some invisible force field.

The real strength and beauty of close miking under the lid is the exquisite detail and shimmer of overtones and the blending, swirling sound of notes swelling and interacting. You put a mic behind the player's head, you get the same old chalky, clunky, vapid, hazy "piano sound" you'll find on a million home videos. Hi-res, maybe, but indistinct and waffly.

[Corran]

I was recording a large orchestra this weekend and they played a piano concerto. I has the main 4 mics hanging about 8' or so off stage, and 15' above the orchestra. I noticed that when the piano did large sweeping runs from bottom to top the notes very clearly moved from one side of the speaker to the other on headphones. And the high notes were on the left and the bass on the right.

I've never quite heard it so clearly on a recording with no close piano mics.