Recording Piano and strings

[bigcitysound]

I'm sure this has been discussed but after going through old threads I didnt quite find what I was after.

I have the following recording scenarios coming up:
Piano with Cello and
Piano with Violin, Viola and Cello.
These are live concerts without PA systems and at a fairly large 500 seat plus decent sounding hall. The recordings are only for archive but I am striving to get the best quality possible.

I have the choice of a pair of Schoeps MK4 and a pair of Schoeps MK2S mics.

My feeling is that the cardioids in ORTF if positioned properly would do a good job for either of these concerts. I do not want to spot mic if at all possible.
I would like some ideas on what main pair would work for these scenarios and ideas about what works for the exact placement of the pair.
I am totally open to using spaced omnis as well and I will try to put up the 2 pairs and pick what sounds best if at all possible.
I will be recording directly to a sound devices 788 recorder and monitoring on Sennheiser HD25's

Jon

[rumleymusic]

I have always found that if you are miking a piano with other solo instruments, a simple stereo pair does not always cut it. The piano will usually sound to distant unless it has its own mics, especially if the piano is on the short stick. I prefer to mic the entire ensemble with a stereo pair and spot the piano. It seems to be more appropriate for classical.

[bigcitysound]

I found a post by "Plush" indicating that to record piano with violin and cello: there needed to be omni spots on each string instrument and also a pair of omnis on the piano (at full stick)

Are there other methods that could work with what I have?? (2 cards and 2 omnis) Obviously its also important how the players are arranged with, any help with this would be appreciated.. just trying to brainstorm possibilities before the date.

Thanks

Jon

[fifthcircle]

Your depth of field will largely depend on the preamps you are using. With those mics, there is no reason why you shouldn't get a very good recording without spots. However, if the pres aren't up to it you may find that a piano spot is needed for the quartet.

My starting point would be an ORTF pair centrally located with a set of wide or flanking omnis. Position the ORTF to get the majority of your sound and then bring in the flanks to open the sound up and fill in the low end. Not knowing the hall, I'd suggest a starting point of about 8 feet up and 8-10 feet out.

--Ben

[bigcitysound]

Thanks Ben

Your approach is what I originally had in mind, but not having recorded an ensemble like this before and only having one shot I though that spots might be helpful.

I dont have any stand alone preamps but am recording straight to the Sound Devices 788 8 track using the internal preamps.

How would you recommend the players be arranged around the piano? (the Violin, Viola, and Cello) And do you think if the piano is at full stick I should have enough clarity on the main ORTF pair?

Jon

[fifthcircle]

You'll be fine with a 788. I've been quite impressed with the sound of Sound Devices recorders.

The strings should sit wherever they feel most comfortable to give a good performance. In a live show, it is the rare event where we get to dictate where things are set up for optimal sound.

More often than not, the strings sit in a little semi-circle with the center player's back to the flat part of the piano (as opposed to the curve). This allows the violin to see the pianist and the cello is usually in the center so the instrument faces out.

I encourage pianists to keep the lid up but there is this myth that a closed lid makes the instrument quieter. This simply is not true- it will muffle the sound, but will not lower the spl of the instrument. In the end, though, you need to defer to the performers and whatever makes them most comfortable. The recording in most live events is archival and secondary to the performance. If they don't perform well, then all is lost anyways.

I usually go for the center pair centered on the strings and the then flanks will really help fill out the piano sound and even out the image.

--Ben

[bigcitysound]

I have a 2 ft stereo bar that I would like to use to support the main ORTF MK4 pair as well as the MK2S omni outriggers.

I am wondering if that will be sufficient spacing for the omnis and whether the omnis may need to be a little closer to the strings than the main pair?

I need to consult the Williams paper again, but when you say omni flanks (Ben) does that indicate somewhat wider spacing?

Also I'm glad to hear some support the Sound Devices stuff, the 788 preamps dont have transformers in them and are apparently "better" than the older 744 recorder.

Jon

[ohmoka]

Originally Posted by bigcitysound

I'm sure this has been discussed but after going through old threads I didnt quite find what I was after.

I have the following recording scenarios coming up:
Piano with Cello and
Piano with Violin, Viola and Cello.
These are live concerts without PA systems and at a fairly large 500 seat plus decent sounding hall. The recordings are only for archive but I am striving to get the best quality possible.

I have the choice of a pair of Schoeps MK4 and a pair of Schoeps MK2S mics.

My feeling is that the cardioids in ORTF if positioned properly would do a good job for either of these concerts. I do not want to spot mic if at all possible.
I would like some ideas on what main pair would work for these scenarios and ideas about what works for the exact placement of the pair.
I am totally open to using spaced omnis as well and I will try to put up the 2 pairs and pick what sounds best if at all possible.
I will be recording directly to a sound devices 788 recorder and monitoring on Sennheiser HD25's

Jon

Man you got all you need!
PIANO AND CELLO.
The 2 cardioids in front of the cello and the 2 omnis on the piano (by the end of the piano... opposite side of the keyboard.
PIANO QUARTET:
Omnis in front of the ensemble getting the stings plus the ambience and the cardioids as piano spots.

[bigcitysound]

Originally Posted by ohmoka

Man you got all you need!
PIANO AND CELLO.
The 2 cardioids in front of the cello and the 2 omnis on the piano (by the end of the piano... opposite side of the keyboard.
PIANO QUARTET:
Omnis in front of the ensemble getting the stings plus the ambience and the cardioids as piano spots.

Hey ohmoka

That would be another way to go about it I guess, but I'm more leaning towards the idea of getting everything on a main ORTF pair and then filling out the recording with a spced or AB omni setup.
I am hoping that I wont need to spot anything, but after hearing some rehearsal maybe I'll need to..
Anyways thanks for your opinion, I enjoy hearing all the different apprachesthumbsup

Jon

[ohmoka]

Originally Posted by bigcitysound

Hey ohmoka

That would be another way to go about it I guess, but I'm more leaning towards the idea of getting everything on a main ORTF pair and then filling out the recording with a spced or AB omni setup.
I am hoping that I wont need to spot anything, but after hearing some rehearsal maybe I'll need to..
Anyways thanks for your opinion, I enjoy hearing all the different apprachesthumbsup

Jon

In a recording session without audience you might be able to move the musicians to get the whole ensemble just with a stereo pair.... but in a normal concert situation (piano behind the strings) it will be hard... specially if you want to use a stereo arrangement made with cardioid mics.

However I agree with you, I would love to be able to always record chamber music ensembles and get the sound I want just with a stereo pair. It would be good if you post some samples and let us know how the thing went.
Cheers! thumbsup

[Don S]

Originally Posted by bigcitysound

Hey ohmoka

That would be another way to go about it I guess, but I'm more leaning towards the idea of getting everything on a main ORTF pair and then filling out the recording with a spced or AB omni setup.
I am hoping that I wont need to spot anything, but after hearing some rehearsal maybe I'll need to..
Anyways thanks for your opinion, I enjoy hearing all the different apprachesthumbsup

Jon

You'll have to use your ears on that one. Piano can be tricky in that situation. It may sound balanced in the cans, because a larger (D) piano can put out lots of sound, but may sound distant because you're hearing the bloomy mids and low mids. I always spot a piano. You may want to pull the ORTF back a bit, and use the omnis between the players and the piano. It will fill out the ensemble nicely as well as act as a (stereo) piano spot. Good Luck!

[fifthcircle]

In my setup, I'd recommend pulling your flanks wider than a 2 foot stereo bar. Usually, I start at about 4-6 feet off center for flanks.

The thing is, you need to consider your micing as a unified system. An A-B pair won't give you the depth of image. The Cardiods alone won't give you low end. Spotting the piano is in some situations a very good thing, but you'll find that something else will end up being compromised.

There is no one way to do this and in the end, your ears will determine what works and what doesn't. Bring gear to move mics around and try a couple different things. In the end, it doesn't matter what we say here. Do what sounds good.

--Ben

[RobAnderson]

This is a concert, yes? To prove Ben's point, I'd actually do it the opposite from what Don suggested.

If the room is any good, I'd use the MK2S's in a small AB (40cm or so) and then put the MK4's right up on the piano. Of course, if the room sucks, then I might go the other way around - ORTF as the main and small AB on the piano with the MK2S's.

Either way, I'd barely use the piano spots (if at all) - it's not for balance - you get your real balance in the mains. I would just want to restore a little of the "bite" back to the piano. Keep in mind that the spots will make the piano a bit louder - you may have to lower the height of the mains a little from where you would normally have them.

You can approach this any way you like - all that matters is the result.

[bigcitysound]

Thanks for the input everyone, there are obviously several ways to accomplish these recordings and all are no doubt valid and in the end I have to trust my ears and hope that there is some time for tweaking before hand to get it sounding right.

The concert is in a large concert hall thats seats 700, so I believe the omnis could also be a viable main pair.. decisions, decisions...

Any more ideas are welcome and I'll be sure to post some samples once its all done.

Jon