Recording long opera with X48: file sizes, external disk?

[spoor14]

Hi everyone,

I'm recording and mixing the first part of Wagner's ring cycle (Das Rheingold) at the end of this month. It'll become a surround sound release on blueray disc, so I'll be tracking at 24/96. My setup consists of my own Cubase / Nuendo DAW with RME madi interface, SSL Alphalink converter, external pre's (Cranesong Spider with digital out for main mic's, Manley 16x2 mic mixer for spots and vocalstage and a couple more 2ch units) I'm able to track the required 32 channels at 24/96 with this setup, but still need a backup recorder for obvious reasons. The Tascam x48 looks perfect for this task so I'll be renting one and feeding it from split outputs on the pre's (insert sends). So far so good, but what I'm concerned with is the length of the show: a good 2,5 hours. In my DAW I can just record WAV64 and keep on going, but as far as I know the X48 records broadcast wavefiles which have a filesize limit of 4GB, but in practice this means 2GB if I (and wikipedia ) are correct. So for a mono track at 24/96 this means 17mb/min, roughly 1GB per hour = at least 2,5GB in total. Do any of you guys have experience with long duration recordings on the x48? Has anyone pushed it to it's recording duration limits? There is no pause in the performance, so splitting it doesn't seem like an option.

The other thing I'm concerned with is the internal drive in the X48. The total data would amount to 32 times 2,5 GB = 80 GB = exactly the available disksize on the internal drive. This means I cant use the internal disk and will be recording to a firewire drive instead. The rental company says this is possible, and I've bought a couple of the newer WD 7200 RPM disks for this purpose. They also sayd I'd better hookup the X48's keyboard / mouse via ps/2, since the USB controller eats up valuable bandwith, which slows down the firewire 400 transfer. All fine, but I get the feeling I might be pushing the system to it's limits and would like some feedback of people who actually record to external disks with the X48. I don't have a chance to test this before the show, or I'll have to rent the X48 just for this purpose.

Thanks for your thoughts and help!

Wessel.

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by spoor14

the X48. I don't have a chance to test this before the show, or I'll have to rent the X48 just for this purpose.

My alarm bell goes on big time when I read that this is a surround release on BD and you don't have well tested equipment for the job and no time to test. IMO you must test the set up before the job.

Also, are you sure the performance is without any pause? Seems like long, 2.5 hours.


/Peter

[spoor14]

Hi Peter,

I understand your concern. My main rig is fully tested and functional, so it's just the rented backup recorder I'm talking about. I'm still in the planning phase of this production and looking into different options for a backup recorder. The X48 seems to fit the bill and I'm just trying to find out before actually renting one if it's worth checking out. If X48 users who actually tried the things I'm talking about advise me to take a different route because they already know it won't work, I'll probably just rent a second DAW and be done with it. Otherwise I'll trust the rental company, rent one and do a testrun the day before the show, and if -god forbid- it won't work, I'll get a replacement recorder (probably DAW) from them. Or in the worst case scenario I'll record the backup at 48KHz to the internal drive. I admit, this is a short timeframe and not bulletproof, but I'm on a very limited budget...

[Audiop]

Ok thanks, my bad´, I guess I was sloppy reading your post. That said be a hard guy and assume that if there's no hick-up for 2.5 hours you'll be fine for the last twenty minutes or so.. ;-)

BTW, I'm also looking at a HD24 as a complement and backup to a DAW. Or possiblyu I'll build two silent PC's and run them in parallel.

I have recorded without backup and UPS so far but my nerves can't take it anymore.


/Peter

[LX3]

Just the other weekend, we recorded a roughly 3hr 15min show on a pair of X-48s. However this was at 48kHz.

If you like, I'll stick an X-48 in record here at 96kHz, and leave it going for 3 or 4 hours. I'm curious to know what happens as well.

I would guess that if it hits a file size limit (4GB? 2GB?) it'll start a new file on each track... which is absolutely fine by me.

[spoor14]

Hi Paul,

If you could, that would be great!!
Are you recording to the internal disk or to a firewire drive?

Tnx! Wessel.

[LX3]

Internal. Although I have occasionally recorded to an external drive. We happily did 36 tracks of 96kHz to an ordinary external 7200rpm firewire drive.

But it's a little scary because if you record to an external drive, that often ends up the only copy of the audio (you're usually doing it for the client to go away with). I would rather record to the internal, then copy to an external, even if it does take an extra hour or more to do the copy.

I've replaced the internal drives on my X-48s with 500GB drives.

First time I used an X-48, I watched the space on that little drive dropping about 1% every minute or two. Had no idea it was such a small drive as standard, and quickly realised we weren't going to get any more than the first set before we ran out of disk space. Luckily there was a break between sets during which we sorted out an external... Talk about trial by fire. That's the downside of renting gear, it can throw some nasty surprises at you...

[bishopthomas]

[QUOTE=LX3;4541553]
But it's a little scary because if you record to an external drive, that often ends up the only copy of the audio (you're usually doing it for the client to go away with). I would rather record to the internal, then copy to an external, even if it does take an extra hour or more to do the copy./QUOTE]

What, no backup X48? Either way, ALWAYS make a backup before sending the only copy with the client. One goes with them and one goes with you. Once they make it to the studio and everything is safe and secure, that's when a format can happen.

[LX3]

Yes, there is always a safety machine. But I don't like letting go of either set of audio without having my own copy. What if the client loses the hard drive somewhere on the road, and then it turns out your safety machine freaked out during the recording? It's not really a "redundant" system in my book if a third party is allowed to just walk away with the output from one machine. I'm then totally dependent on the safety.

So I'd far rather make a copy on-site and let them take that. Only takes an hour or so, maybe less. If someone insists on leaving with audio as soon as the show finishes then I'd record to an external, but I'd never recommend it. In any case it's usually at least an hour before the band have got changed, said thanks to people and made the most of the hospitality

Once they see it's on an external drive, they do seem to want to just take it immediately. Make 'em wait I say :-)

[HughH]

Hello
We record to external drives quite often on our X48s so I'll give a few notes that you're welcome to take or leave.
If you're that tight on space on the internal drive I wouldn't chance using it. You'll want to record a rehearsal or interstitial stuff and to run out before you're done is disastrous.
Recording to an external drive is quite solid on the X48. Good quality drives are important as everyone knows, but the fw interface is very important. Cheap fw enclosures have cheap fw interfaces that will pause during extended streaming which stops your recording. Use a good one and format it ahead of time.

The x48 segments recordings so they're always under 2gb. To avoid undue stress it starts at track 1 at around 1.9gb, closes that file and starts another, then moves to track 2. All 48 tracks are done before the 2g limit. Seamless.

We've done many recordings of 48 tracks at 96k/24bit to a fw drive flawlessly. There's a menu item under File called Drive Benchmarking that allows you to test your drive.

Good luck and test everything ahead of time.
Hugh

[spoor14]

In this case I won't have to handover the audio to the client directely, since I'm also mixing this release myself. I'll end up with the data from my main rig and backup rig, which I'll also duplicate after each show for safety.

Regarding the drives: the rental company suggested the relatively new WD mybook studio edition My Book Studio Edition 1 TB Hard Drives ( WDH1Q10000 ) so I bought 2 (1TB versions) of those. They have firewire 800 interfaces, usb and esata, so I'll have to use a firewire 800 to 400 cable. I wonder why Tascam didn't built a FW800 interface in the X48... Do you format the drives NTFS or FAT32?

Thanks so far for the excellent feedback everyone!

Wessel

[LX3]

Thanks for the indepth answer Hugh I don't think I've ever gone that near the 2GB file limit on my X-48s... or if I have, I've forgotten about it.

Although I think I do recall seeing that staggered-start pile of audio clips, so maybe I did.

BTW, I would call BS on the "USB eats firewire bandwidth" claim. Either way, I almost always use a USB mouse and keyboard on my units, without issue. A monitor and keyboard definitely give you a better window into what the X-48 is doing - clearer meters, clearer counter, better assurance that it really is in record, much easier new song creation, etc. Just keep your hands well away from the space bar!

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by LX3

BTW, I would call BS on the "USB eats firewire bandwidth" claim. Either way, I almost always use a USB mouse and keyboard on my units, without issue.

I would have to agree. How much bandwith can a mouse and keyboard actually take?

Originally Posted by LX3

A monitor and keyboard definitely give you a better window into what the X-48 is doing - clearer meters, clearer counter, better assurance that it really is in record, much easier new song creation, etc. Just keep your hands well away from the space bar!

It's such a drag that this is true. I don't remember exactly what the issue I had with it, but it had something to do with starting a new folder and saving the files into it without having to connect the things that remind me that it's a computer. I ended up not being able to get it going and dragging along all the extra computer crap. If only the HD24 and X48 could combine features...

[LX3]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

If only the HD24 and X48 could combine features...

+1

Thinking about it, I do use the X-48s fairly often without keyboard and monitor. But have you ever seen a kludgier way of naming a new project than the way you have to do it on the X-48 from the front panel? I let out a big sigh every time I realise I've got to enter a project name using those buttons.

I have more than a few issues with the HD24, but one thing you can say is that it's very fast and straightforward to use (and the XR sounds fab).

[Haigbabe]

Originally Posted by spoor14

Hi everyone,

I'm recording and mixing the first part of Wagner's ring cycle (Das Rheingold) at the end of this month. It'll become a surround sound release on blueray disc, so I'll be tracking at 24/96.

Wessel.

Hi Wessel.

Can I assume that the final BD release will be with video and DD/DTS HD?

Please let me know where and when it is released.

I had some involvement in the complete Ring on SACD a few years back so am interested in how others go with it.

Cheers,

HB

PS The X-48 should be fine for backup. And using an external drive would be wise.

[Haigbabe]

Originally Posted by LX3

+1

Thinking about it, I do use the X-48s fairly often without keyboard and monitor. But have you ever seen a kludgier way of naming a new project than the way you have to do it on the X-48 from the front panel? I let out a big sigh every time I realise I've got to enter a project name using those buttons..

It's possible to set up the project with the KB and mouse etc and then close the X-48. Now remove the KB&M and restart the unit.

Seems to work ok :-)

HB

[LX3]

True, but the time you save by using a keyboard is outweighed by the time it takes to unpack, power up, create project, shut down and pack everything again.

[bishopthomas]

Paul, what is your solution to transport? Do you have a separate case for the KVM components or is that in the same case? If you're using two X48's do you have a KVM switcher or separate pieces for each machine? Sorry for pointing out the obvious, but when space and portability are at a premium carrying around all that extra gear doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Especially when all you really need it for is naming a project.

I just wish they would have spent more time on the recorder and less effort making it an all-in-one unit. Is there anyone out there using it for its mixing abilities? I doubt it; most (if not all) of us are dumping into our favorite DAW anyway.

[spoor14]

Originally Posted by Haigbabe

Hi Wessel.

Can I assume that the final BD release will be with video and DD/DTS HD?

Please let me know where and when it is released.

I had some involvement in the complete Ring on SACD a few years back so am interested in how others go with it.

Cheers,

HB

Hi HB,

You're right, it wil be DTS HD Master Audio in 5.1, 24/96. It's a production for a Dutch opera company, but I'm not sure when it will be released and if it will be an international release. I'll let you once I find out.

Can you perhaps share some details on the SACD you were involved with? E.g. recording approach, problems encountered, if it was a surround release, you name it! I have my recording setup / mic placement planned already, but it would be great to know a bit more about other approaches. It is quite a challenge, the orchestra is huge (100+) and of course tucked away in a not so great sounding pit...

Regards, Wessel.

[LX3]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

Paul, what is your solution to transport? Do you have a separate case for the KVM components or is that in the same case? If you're using two X48's do you have a KVM switcher or separate pieces for each machine? Sorry for pointing out the obvious, but when space and portability are at a premium carrying around all that extra gear doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Especially when all you really need it for is naming a project.

I absolutely agree . I only take a keyboard and monitor when there's more complex stuff to deal with e.g. track naming is required. I'm pretty happy working from the front panel... apart from the annoying project naming issue. But it's only annoying for a couple of minutes until it's done.

I have my monitor and keyboard separate from the X-48s for flexibility as well. Sometimes you have to have the recorder rack at a height where an integrated keyboard monitor draw wouldnt really work... or a few feet away from where you're working, so it's hard to keep an eye on. And it kind of stops you putting a rack on top, as the monitor would obsure it.

When I build my new monitor and keyboard unit, it'll have a KVM switcher integrated into it, so I can watch two machines. Right now, I just hook up to my "main" machine, and run the safety using the front panel.

I just wish they would have spent more time on the recorder and less effort making it an all-in-one unit. Is there anyone out there using it for its mixing abilities? I doubt it; most (if not all) of us are dumping into our favorite DAW anyway.

Again... thumbsup. I haven't used the DSP mixer in over a year. Seemed to be the source of most of the crashes in 1.04. Although now we have v1.10 I might try it again when I need 48 tracks but don't need (or have space for) a proper desk.

[spoor14]

I thought I'd let you guys know that the recordings went perfect. After about two hours of recording the X48 indeed started to make new files for each of the tracks, one at a time to prevent CPU / disk overloads I guess. I'm also glad to say I won't be needing the X48 recordings, since the main rig worked like a charm.

Thanks again for some very helpfull insights,

Wessel.

b.t.w. I now also think the USB keyboard issue is non existant: I din't even get a keyboard to work via PS/2 (it was a USB keyboard with a PS/2 adapter), so I hooked it up to USB without issues. One more thing: I had a firewire 800 drive with me, and used a 800 to 400 cable to hook it up to the X48. It wouldn't recognize the drive that way and I ended up hooking it up via USB without any further issues. I ran the drive benchmarking tool which confirmed it would be fine. Still I think it's a bit weird...

[biggingrant]

I have recorded on the x-48 for up to 2-1/2 hours at 48k 24bit and never had a problem. i use them at our church all 48 tracks running.

[audibell]

Originally Posted by spoor14

I thought I'd let you guys know that the recordings went perfect. After about two hours of recording the X48 indeed started to make new files for each of the tracks, one at a time to prevent CPU / disk overloads I guess. I'm also glad to say I won't be needing the X48 recordings, since the main rig worked like a charm.

Thanks again for some very helpfull insights,

Wessel.

b.t.w. I now also think the USB keyboard issue is non existant: I din't even get a keyboard to work via PS/2 (it was a USB keyboard with a PS/2 adapter), so I hooked it up to USB without issues. One more thing: I had a firewire 800 drive with me, and used a 800 to 400 cable to hook it up to the X48. It wouldn't recognize the drive that way and I ended up hooking it up via USB without any further issues. I ran the drive benchmarking tool which confirmed it would be fine. Still I think it's a bit weird...

Hi, glad to hear all went well anyway. I record to a fw 800 external drive and I bought a fw400 adapter cable. FW800 is a 9 pin, carries 5v and signal while fw400 can be 6 pin or 4 pin. I found I had to use the 5vdc power wart anyway, like you say, the drive lit up but was not recognised by the hardware.
As to the usb keyboard and mouse, I suspect that the fw controller and the usb controller are on an all-in-one buss, exactly like in laptops, so using the usb port while a fw device is in use will indeed eat up some of the bandwidth available to the fw device. USB 2.0 is quite fast and you mentioned WD MyBook drives. I have experienced a wd 7200 rpm drive with 32 megs cache to give faster thruput than a WD Raptor 10000rpm w 16megs cache. Why the Raptor is crippled with only 16megs is inexcusable to me, especially with the cost differential. The wd CaviarGreen 7200 is every bit as fast as the older Raptor and consumes less electricity with fewer vibrations because the single platter has less mass & only one arm.
The avg thruput of the Caviars in my rig is 72MBytes/sec (I recommend HD Tune website for drive testing); a 24bit sample at 96,000cps is 2,304,000bits/sec = 288,000 Bytes or 0.288MB/sec x 32 trks is 9.216 MB/sec - this is well within what the drive can handle. The bottleneck is the fw controller in the x48 and the MyBook drive, though I see the MyBooks are 10000rpm, too.
Capturing it will have been the easy part, mixing 32 HD tracks will be the greater burden on your system, though without the need for a backup rental system running too.
Have fun and post a little snippet some time.
BRgds
WalterT