Any Straight Ahead Jazz Recordists in the House?

[imaginaryday]

warning! loaded question ahead:

since i am a die-hard jazz (no smooth jazz) listener, i was hopping to get some info on the gear you use for tracking. your favorite mics, pres, compressors.... and whether you mix in or out of the box.

many thanks.

[loh90]

i am by no means a "jazz recordist" but i have done a couple jazz sessions recently.

jazz is a genre that i enjoy recording because for the most part, you are working with good musicians, everything is acoustic (which for me is easier to record) and it is a relatively simple approach.

I find that a lot of ribbon mics work well in jazz. Pretty vague, i know. I've used Coles 4038 as drum overheads with great success. Other overhead mics I've used for jazz include KM184, Josephson C42, both came out good.

One of my favorite combinations on horns is a Beyer m201 combined with a ribbon. I own a Shure 330 (not a very standard or popular, or even that good of a ribbon) but with the 2 together, you can achieve a great tone. The 201 will give it nice presence and bite and the ribbon gives it the extra warmth and the body. Adjust between the two levels and you wont' need any EQ.

I like warm gooey pre's (neve) to cleaner but still full bodied pres for jazz (api). The combination of ribbon mics and warm pre's can get you a really nice jazz tone.

As far as compression, I try and do as minimal compression as possible. Enough to control the extreme dynamics.

I posted a similar thread like this earlier this month before I had a jazz session myself. A bunch of people replied with some helpful insight on equipment, specifically mics, to use on jazz. Take a look: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-mu...mics-jazz.html

All in all I think good musicians and a good room are the most important elements in a jazz recording. If you have that, you can achieve a really good sound even with just a couple of mics.

[fallforward]

I do a lot of Jazz recording mixed ITB tracked with outboard pre's, no console. Acoustic and Electric. Check out the remote forum, lot of great info there regarding Jazz recording.

[vernier]

Getz and Gilberto

[RCM - Ronan]

I used to record a lot of acoustic jazz. Wish I still did. Recording Jazz in not really that much different than any other genre. You use gear you like and tailor to suit the music and the player. Super dark piano? try a more aggressive condenser, Super bright trumpet? try and ribbon or a mellower condenser.

One of my favorite things about recording acoustic jazz (and acoustic folk) is that you can use techniques that are mostly about capturing the instrument and have to worry less about how the sound is going to hold up against a wall of guitars or synths etc.

A lot of jazz engineers have switched to mixing in the box, but I still prefer the size, depth and imaging I can get out of mixing on a console.

Coltranes "A love supreme" is pretty much my idea of a perfect jazz recording.

[nept]

you'll love the interview mentioned in this thread:

al schmitt new interview...very interesting read

it's what recording jazz is all about imo.

[MarkRB]

5 x u87.

[lerone]

Originally Posted by fallforward

tracked with outboard pre's, no console.

Yes! Great big, dry live room, clean pres, great mics, short cable runs, minimal mic techniques, no overdubs, outstanding conversion or 2" (I'd go for hi end digital myself). I'd (personally) stay clear of transformer based pres and opt for as much transparency as possible. Either ITB mix in something like sequoia, audiocube, pyramix or a passive summing mixer, although I'm not sure which side id be on for the latter, probably ITB. I'd try and avoid compression like the bubonic plague, where at all possible - and leave a good amount of headroom. I'd most likely record in 88.2 also
With jazz, i'd rather hear the music & not the equipment. Just my pedantic take on things though . This would be my perfect-world situation.

[Warren Beck]

Good evening.

This is my bread and butter for my studio. RE20, U67, Schoeps, C414, km84 & 184, Calrec, and M160's for my microphones. Yes nothing too fancy, just consistent microphones that always work. Mic pre's well class A and class A/B, the odd double class A too. I rent out The Music Gallery for larger ensembles. EQ again my own stuff, compressors API, Neve on buss mixes.

Hope this helps a little bit.

Regards,

[fallforward]

Originally Posted by rcm

Coltranes "A love supreme" is pretty much my idea of a perfect jazz recording.

As a 13 year old tenor saxophone player, this record changed my life.

As for modern stuff, it doesn't getting any better than Michael Brecker's Time is of the essence

The B3 sounds amazing (Larry Goldings!!!) Pat Metheny and Brecker, Elvin Jones. I listen to that album at least once a week...

[lerone]

Originally Posted by fallforward

As a 13 year old tenor saxophone player, this record changed my life.

As for modern stuff, it doesn't getting any better than Michael Brecker's Time is of the essence

The B3 sounds amazing (Larry Goldings!!!) Pat Metheny and Brecker, Elvin Jones. I listen to that album at least once a week...

Wish there were more 13 year olds with your mindset! You doing any recording yet?thumbsupthumbsup

[PlugHead]

Live-off-the-floor jazz is my main bag as well.

I use a lot of ribbons (Royer/AEA/Beyer/some chinese knockoffs) some tube mics (Soundelux U99, Mohave MA-200's, CL TS-1's) and some FET condensers (Neumann SM69 and KM88's, AKG 451's, and now Sony C-38b's), and some dynamics (441/RE-20/SM-7) depends on the gig which pre's/converters I use, tho I am totally happy with the pre's on my WZ-AD96M's, I'll bring in Buzz/API/Neve/Hardy's for larger jobs.

AFAIC, the player and the space you're recording in is the most important. Next is the mic/choice for the players, and beyond that, pre's and converters - no compression, but possibly a limiter on 'one-take' gigs. BTW - I'm not dismissing the validity of mic pre's, but they are less important than the mic(s) in front of the player(s).

I've mixed ITB for a lot of years (10+) but am starting to mix OTB the past 3 months - I can see benefits with both methods, just depends on your personal preference and comfort level, not to mention your closet of O/B gear or plugins, depending which realm you choose...

[Obitheincredible]

Subscribin.

[imaginaryday]

Originally Posted by nept

you'll love the interview mentioned in this thread:

al schmitt new interview...very interesting read

it's what recording jazz is all about imo.

i happen to be the one who posted that link

thanks for the heads-up!

[Dave Ferris]

Jazz, jazz,....I've heard that word before. Oh, is that the music real musicians play live with with real instruments ? I seem to recall some friends mentioning they actually made a living one time long ago trying to play this so called jazz. Hmmm...is but a distant memory now...

Who would be so foolish has to think there would be musicians that devote their life to play this, what you call jazz, much less people that aspire to document this silly endeavor.

Careers in Jazz

[imaginaryday]

Originally Posted by fallforward

As a 13 year old tenor saxophone player, this record changed my life.

As for modern stuff, it doesn't getting any better than Michael Brecker's Time is of the essence

The B3 sounds amazing (Larry Goldings!!!) Pat Metheny and Brecker, Elvin Jones. I listen to that album at least once a week...

A love supreme is an awesome record.

i also like michael brecker's pilgrimage. the last record he did before his passing. check out the studio tracking session here.

[imaginaryday]

thank you all for sharing your thoughts and ideas. i see most of you go for a clean path and simple approach.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by vernier

Getz and Gilberto

Phil Ramone at A&R.thumbsup

I love Jazz, 35% of recording & producing that i do is in the genre(i came up as Jazz pianist/keyb. I wanted to be Bill Evans).

My ideal Jazz recording is Miled Davis "Kind of Blue" at Columbia 30th studios. All classic Neumanns and an Ampex 300. Plus the fabled former Armenian Church.

[imaginaryday]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Phil Ramone at A&R.thumbsup

I love Jazz, 35% of recording & producing that i do is in the genre(i came up as Jazz pianist/keyb. I wanted to be Bill Evans).

My ideal Jazz recording is Miled Davis "Kind of Blue" at Columbia 30th studios. All classic Neumanns and an Ampex 300. Plus the fabled former Armenian Church.

what do you think of the remastered kind of blue that was released a few months ago?

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by imaginaryday

what do you think of the remastered kind of blue that was released a few months ago?

The one done by Mark Wilder?

I thought he did a terrific job. The guy is a great ME for the Jazz genre. When you hear his stuff you can tell he gets it.

[imaginaryday]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

The one done by Mark Wilder?

I thought he did a terrific job. The guy is a great ME for the Jazz genre. When you hear his stuff you can tell he gets it.

wasn't Greg Calbi at sterling who remastered those mark wilder tracks? anyway, i thought they were done justice.

its funny, i spoke to some people that loved the original recording, but weren't too crazy about the remastered one. i really think the "new sonic print" somehow disconnects them from the emotional attachment they associate with original recording.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by imaginaryday

wasn't Greg Calbi at sterling who remastered those mark wilder tracks? anyway, i thought they were done justice.

its funny, i spoke to some people that loved the original recording, but weren't too crazy about the remastered one. i really think the "new sonic print" somehow disconnects them from the emotional attachment they associate with original recording.

I like both. But i understand why people would not dig it. Sometimes what we attach to the first time we hear something is the defining moments for us. So anything different blurs that.

I've noticed that when people talk about records in the not so distant past when it comes to sonics. Listening back now with fresh ears its like "what the hell are they hearing?"

I love Jazz, especially jazz with vocalists. Its one of my favorite genres to work on. Still feels like a special event when working on some. Its like a free concert in the studio and i get front row seats.

[henryrobinett]

I almost exclusively do jazz. I used Millennia pres, almost exclusively. Lately I've been using the pres in the ULN-8. Budget high end mics -- Peluso P12 on overheads. For alto and trumpet I like AEA 84, Royer 121. Tenor I love Peluso 2247LE.

I use no compression going in. Sometimes I strap some limiters for safety on tracks that may have a ridiculous dynamic range, but otherwise no. I do use compression quite a bit -- not nearly as much compared to rock/pop standards, but I use compression when mixing. I try to be very conservative with EQ as well.

As said earlier I want to hear the instruments in their true form, -- as close to as I hear them, and not the gear. Some coloration is nice, of course. I like Fairchild and LA2A plugs from UAD on the horns.

I like Altiverb and sometimes use multiple reverbs and a few delays panned into corners. But subtle.

[unit7]

For me the key choices of mics for the rythm section are for ac bass, OH and piano. For bass u47fet is a favourite. OH, ribbons or anything that don't make the cymbals sound harch. Piano, KM56s is the favourite. Ribbons for trpt/trbn.

I'm into hi end pre's. I bring my 1081/1084s if studio doesn't have good ones.

I like to be able to isolate the bass. If possible also the drums. Still the musicians has to be able to see eachother. Setting up for the best sound and the best communication requires some planning. Always talk to the musicians well ahead in time before the session to save time. Moving around instruments/mics takes a lot of time, so plan to get it right from the start.

Recording without headphones is sometimes an option and many musicians like that.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by unit7

I like to be able to isolate the bass. .

Tracking upright bass and getting a fantastic/classic sound is by far one of the hardest things to do especially in the context of everything going on. Isolating the upright bass mics even more difficult.

[henryrobinett]

A well placed figure 8 condenser does wonders in the bass department for isolation. A well recorded bass is central to getting a great jazz recording. I like at least two mics on the bass -- one at the bridge and the other up on the neck.

Edit -- many jazz musicians (me included) want to be in very close proximity to each other, which makes isolation difficult. So microphone legerdemain crucial.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

A well placed figure 8 condenser does wonders in the bass department for isolation. A well recorded bass is central to getting a great jazz recording. I like at least two mics on the bass -- one at the bridge and the other up on the neck.

I totally agree.

The bass is key and the bass players ive noticed are the hardest to please...i think in every musical genre. They can never hear themselves enough in the headphones, they want to stand where they choose no matter what(usually near the drums) which with the open bass mics will pick up no matter how elaborate the setup you choose.

The last time i had a mic on the neck it would pick up the upright bass player breathing on every beat. And when he used the bow it was so annoying. So on playback the whole time it was..."what is that noise on every beat?"

[unit7]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Tracking upright bass and getting a fantastic/classic sound is by far one of the hardest things to do especially in the context of everything going on. Isolating the upright bass mics even more difficult.

Pic from my most recent session (swedish Martin Sjöstedt on bass). Bass booth built of screens w windows. Thick blanket made the roof. Played in the same room as 9 horns. U47fet just below the bridge (not seen), Gefell above (for detail, could be almost any mic IMO, small one preferred though), no line. Worked great, but this guy has a huge sound, so not too much leakage from the horns.

[Bassmankr]

If you like jazz then you need to rent this movie, "Sweet and Lowdown" a comedy by Woody Allen staring Sean Pean as a fictional "Emmett Ray", the world's second best jazz guitarist after Django. Set in the 30's and up for a couple Ocsars in it's day it has a fantastic "Django" style soundtrack with lots of great tunes and inside musician's jokes.

[imaginaryday]

Originally Posted by Bassmankr

If you like jazz then you need to rent this movie, "Sweet and Lowdown" a comedy by Woody Allen staring Sean Pean as a fictional "Emmett Ray", the world's second best jazz guitarist after Django. Set in the 30's and up for a couple Ocsars in it's day it has a fantastic "Django" style soundtrack with lots of great tunes and inside musician's jokes.

cool! thanks. i'll definitely check it out.