Recording a classical piano trio

[rossmaninov]

I would like to ask for some advice please. I will be recording a piano trio and I have never done this before.
Firstly I would like to ask what is the common professional way to record a piano trio playing in a church, with no audience and the trio playing Brahms and Schubert. What is normal amount of mics and positioning?

The recording I will be doing will actually be in a fairly small room, 7m long by 5m wide. Piano is a Steinway baby grand, in fixed position in corner of room. I guess the cellist and violinist will sit to one side of the piano. My recording equipment will consist of one Oktava MK319 condenser mic that goes to a preamp and then into my computer which will be at other end of room. If someone with more experience than me was going to do this recording and they had to use my equipment, the same room etc. then what would they do? Does it make sense just to put the mic about centre of room facing musicians? If so then how high should I put the mic? I won’t have too long to experiment. Is it best to have the mic up high or is it fine about waist height?

The room has a fairly low ceiling (about 3 metres high), floor is carpeted and there are windows all a long one side, so there won’t be much reverberation. I will look to add artificial reverb afterwards.
My next question related to this is: If I have opportunity to use another low cost condenser mic, for example a cheap Rode mic (so I will then have 2 mics – Rode and my Oktava) then how should I set things up?

Finally: If I wanted to record just the piano in this room (pianist playing Beethoven) then where should I put my Oktava? And if I had the Rode as well, how should I arrange these two mics? Remember, the piano has to stay in the corner.
And, if a professional had to record just this piano in this room, how would he/she do it – they can have their own usual choice of mics etc.

I hope it is not too many questions. Any answers/advice people can give me will be much appreciated.

thanks

I have attached a grid diagram of the room I will be recording in.

[NorseHorse]

First thing you'll probably want to do is get another microphone. Stereophony rocks!

You might want to explain what this recording is for. It will help focus the responses to your questions. Are you trying to release a CD? Trying to put songs on mySpace? Trying to make a gift for your mother? Trying to apply to a conservatory? Trying to learn recording for its own sake? Or simply trying to review your performance?

Also, try searching this forum for "piano trio" and see what comes up. Different setups have been discussed before.

Cheers.

[rossmaninov]

Hi
I will explain that my aim and intention here is kind of a challenge, I want to get the best possible recording, most professional sounding recording that I can, with just the equipment and location that I have (described above).

thanks

[7rojo7]

Get another Mk319
put the musicians where they sound good, if the piano is not nailed to the floor, move it if you have to
Use an ORTF array, a stereo bar might cost you 10 euro
put the mic about 2,5 meters back and at least a meter from the ceiling in height
push record and make notes, don't change it once you commit

[bkbirge]

In some ways you are in a difficult position for what you want, the lack of 2 matched mics is a bummer but in other ways your job is simpler because of the limitations. Your job now is to find the right balance between the room and the performers, that's it. Their job is to balance themselves so don't even bother close micing. Walk around while they play soft and loud passaged together and find where your ears smile. This could be all the way back in the room, behind them, to the side, in a corner, in the rafters, or right in front of them, check everywhere. If they won't give you a 1/2 hour or so for this then they're gambling. When you dig the sound then put the mic there. Then and only then put on some headphones and experiment with height and angle, the sound might resolve nicer higher or might not. A mono classical recording can sound wonderful if done right. Ask the performers for a list of their favorite CDs (that are relevant to their performance) so you can balance their expectations with your preconceived notions of good sound.

[Corran]

If it all possible, get another mic! I would be hesitant on using a Rode and Oktava together for a stereo recording because those mics are completely different (Oktava - dark, Rode - bright). If you can get another 319 that would be best.

[didier.brest]

put the mic about 2,5 meters

I will put the mic at much less than that. In a so small room, 2.5 m is far beyond the critical perimeter. I will try a mic close to the piano (1.6 m height just in the rim bow, steered to the keyboard, look at here) and a mic close to the violin and the cello, and further equalize (mandatory in a so small room) and mix the two tracks, and possibly add some reverb.
But the drawback of doing so is that you will not separate the violin and the cello in the stereo image...
Well you need a third mic to get one per instrument.

[rumleymusic]

If you are stuck with one mic, you cannot expect professional results. Your mic is a cardioid also, and getting it in a position to cover all the instruments will be very difficult. You could try placing the 2 solo instruments in front of the piano and hope that reverb will give you some sense of space (not likely). It would be best to find (rent?) a matched pair (or at least 2 of the same mic) and use a typical stereo spacing far enough back to get a good image on the instruments but not too far so you get overwhelmed by the "small room" sound.

[rossmaninov]

Thanks for all this advice.
I am now thinking that if I am going to use just my Oktava mic, then I should try and sit the cellist and violin in front of the piano (as was just mentioned) instead of to the side. My mic should then capture them all together easier.


I may be going off track but, when recording an orchestra I am guessing that not all mics are matched pairs or are the same. Different mics for the woodwinds, strings etc? So why is there a problem using two different types of mics in my setup? Cello, violin and piano are very different instruments in character, brightness etc, in the same way that orchestra instruments are different. A recording of an orchestra is able to blend the different types of mics together so wouldn't it be possible with recording a piano trio?

thanks again

[Corran]

If you just use two mics in a stereo array, it's best if they are matched or at least the same mic.

If you separately mic each instrument, they can be different mics but then you'd need more than just 2 mics. preferably 4 really, and that's going to be harder to mix and make sound right than just a stereo pair.

[rumleymusic]

Originally Posted by rossmaninov

Thanks for all this advice.
I am now thinking that if I am going to use just my Oktava mic, then I should try and sit the cellist and violin in front of the piano (as was just mentioned) instead of to the side. My mic should then capture them all together easier.


I may be going off track but, when recording an orchestra I am guessing that not all mics are matched pairs or are the same. Different mics for the woodwinds, strings etc? So why is there a problem using two different types of mics in my setup? Cello, violin and piano are very different instruments in character, brightness etc, in the same way that orchestra instruments are different. A recording of an orchestra is able to blend the different types of mics together so wouldn't it be possible with recording a piano trio?

thanks again

If you plan to use a stereo pair, in either XY, ORTF, or omni AB you need to use matched pairs. In most orchestral recordings, there are spot mics, and there are the mains. The mains, which traditionally encompass most of the sound, are almost always matched pairs, one panned hard left, and one panned hard right. Spots can be whatever works best and panned appropriately for their relative position in the orchestra.

You don't want to use one mic for the left ear and one mic for the right ear.

If you are not using a stereo pair, but close miking all the instruments individually or in groups, sure, use whatever you can get your hands on. You will just need to do some careful work in post blending the two sounds and making everything fit realistically in the stereo field. This is a little less traditional in classical ensemble recording, but it is frequently done, and it can work.

Edit: Sorry Bryan, kind of duplicated what you are saying, you beat me to it

[Corran]

Your explanation is a little more in depth anyway.

[rossmaninov]

It looks very unlikely that I am going to get my hands on another Oktava MK 319, I don’t think you can buy them new here anymore in the UK. So if I can only get another low budget condenser mic then I guess I am probably best to use the setup that you and Didierdescribed where I am close miking (one for piano, one for violin and cello) and try and put them accurately into stereo field during mixing.

Also I am interested in the idea that bkbirge said about recording in mono. If I use just my Oktava MK 319 and therefore record in mono, how lacking is this? Many great classical CDs must be mono – CDs of Heifetz, Maria Callas etc.

Is a mono recording more acceptable to listen to when it is of a small chamber performance, rather than an orchestra? If I put the finished piano trio recording on to a CD then would it be immediately noticeable that it is mono?

Lastly, if I mix down my mono recording to a stereo file in Cubase then it will have exactly the same sounds in left and right. Is that to be avoided? Although not a true stereo mix, is it still preferable to listening to a mono version?

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by rossmaninov

Is a mono recording more acceptable to listen to when it is of a small chamber performance, rather than an orchestra? If I put the finished piano trio recording on to a CD then would it be immediately noticeable that it is mono?

Lastly, if I mix down my mono recording to a stereo file in Cubase then it will have exactly the same sounds in left and right. Is that to be avoided? Although not a true stereo mix, is it still preferable to listening to a mono version?

Question 1: no IMO. On a chamber ensemble, the stereo is very noticeable.
Question 2: yes.
Question 3: no but it will sound mono.
Question 4: no it sounds the same except if you perform some processing that will introduce difference between both channels for creating a false stereo. But this will give to the listener no sense of the true scene and should be avoided IMO. Mono can be very good. Just listen to this one (found in my CD collection, recorded in 1951, the guy who is singing alla Gould is Pablo Casals):

[rossmaninov]

Thanks a lot didier. I also liked the examples of you playing Schubert on piano that you gave a link to at the top of this thread. It is very interesting although I could only listen to one of the examples, I am going to send you a PM as I have some questions about it.

Using some processing to create differences for a false stereo sounds interesting, I will look at my software plugins to see what I have that might do this.

many thanks

[Jim vanBergen]

If there is no possibility of you finding, renting, or borrowing two matched microphones for a good stereo image (and this is really a significantly important thing to do, to generate a real stereo image from a real pair of matched, quality microphones) , then I would commit to mono recording. I would consider what blend of mics would be the best depending on the arrangement of the musicians, and personally I would probably use the Rode as a spot mic and the Oktava as the main room mic at the correct distance and height to execute a good mono image.

I personally would not spend the energy trying to create a quasi-stereo image by adding reverb or stereo-izing a mono file in software, but that's me. I'd try to capture the real sound of the church with its natural reflections and decay, but I would do this with a matched pair of omni mics, and if I wanted more reverb, by adding a second pair of mics at the rear of the church. So, you have to decide for yourself what works and what you are trying to produce.

Good luck, let us know what you do and post some results!

[krs]

Originally Posted by rossmaninov

Also I am interested in the idea that bkbirge said about recording in mono. If I use just my Oktava MK 319 and therefore record in mono, how lacking is this? Many great classical CDs must be mono – CDs of Heifetz, Maria Callas etc.

I appreciate this line of thinking

[bkbirge]

Originally Posted by rossmaninov

Is a mono recording more acceptable to listen to when it is of a small chamber performance, rather than an orchestra? If I put the finished piano trio recording on to a CD then would it be immediately noticeable that it is mono?

Lastly, if I mix down my mono recording to a stereo file in Cubase then it will have exactly the same sounds in left and right. Is that to be avoided? Although not a true stereo mix, is it still preferable to listening to a mono version?

Mono can sound great you don't have to have stereo. When the performers go home and listen to it in there car or on their ipod or home stereo I bet at least half of 'em won't be able to tell the difference.

Of course a lot of those great mono recordings were not done with one mic, however I think you can get acceptable results that way. You're on a budget, this is an experiment and experience building exercise for you, I get it. In this case the musicians absolutely have to balance themselves and then you have to find the sweet spot to put the mic.

When you mix down to a CD you will have that mono track on both left and right, that's fine it isn't going to give any problems at all, it is still a mono version.

If you want you can always add some verb and/or compression later but really for your project that would be likely detrimental and a waste of time. I would probably normalize the end track though. Give them an honest pure mono recording and if you've done your job right and it sucks, they need to practice.

[rumleymusic]

CDs of Heifetz, Maria Callas etc.

Both dead, and they never made CD's.
If they had the option to record in stereo they would.

Remember that the original King Kong was a technologial triumph for its day....just saying. : )

[Corran]

I really think saying the clients most likely wouldn't notice a mono recording is doing them a great disservice. Any layperson should be able to hear something different from any modern recording.

I might have missed it, but the OP still hasn't told us what this is for. I could be wrong, but a piano trio isn't usually used for an audition CD, or just for fun. Most likely they want it to be a good-sounding recording. And while it is possible to "make a recording" using the bare-bones equipment you have, I would hope you want to make something that sounds good or great, not just to have "something" on tape.

If you can't get another Oktava, get another Rode to match the one you mentioned. Or find a pair of something else. If there's anything that's not lacking these days is people having some modicum of equipment in their basement, surely you can find someone who might want to help you out. I'd help you if you were near me.

[rossmaninov]

Can I get some advice/info about using unmatched mics please? Have people tried it much. What are the results? Are there some instances when the results are okay? I am guessing that some mics can match up okay even if they are not properly 'matched'?

thanks