Preamps and converters for classical grand piano.....

[achabloop5080]

Hi guys,
I'm in the middle of a very important gear update: now I got Schoeps CMC5 MK2S (stereo matched) and also bought additional capsules (2xMK21 e 2xMK4 all stereo matched).
I'm a classical pianist and my plan is to record my next classical solo piano cds (mainly live recordings in beautiful acoustics) but with no compromise in quality (possibly).
I'd like to buy the "definitive" stereo preamp and A/D converter, in the past I changed too often from entry level mics to middle level and lose money.....
I also can't audition every pre/converter combos so I need your pro helps: for preamp I'm leaning toward Crookwood Painpot, but other candidates are Millennia, Grace Designs (Lunatec V3 has A/D on board but seems a bit middle level unit), DAV, Forssell, Neve Portico...
I'll record with only 2 mics, MK2S or MK21.

Thank you

[John Willett]

Hi Gianluca,

Piano recording is what I specialise in.

Although I use different mics. from you, you have chosen some of the best available - so OK there.

Personally, I record directly into the Nagra VI as their pre-amps are superb and equal to the ones you listed.

The three pre-amps you list are among the best and I would not like to choose between them.

There is another alternative that does not require any pre-amps at all. You could get the Schoeps CMD 2U and do the A/D conversion in the microphone without any need for a pre-amp. at all.

This is the AES42 digital mic. system.

You can plug these into the Neumann DMI-2 (as Schoeps do not do any converters fo=r their AES42 mics) which will control the mics and convert the output to AES3 (but you will need to sample-rate convert to clock them. Alternatively the RME DMC-842 will take up to 8 mics and will sample-rate convert and clock internally and give you an AES3 output you can use. The Sound Devices 788T can take AES42 mics in direct and will sample-rate convert (to clock them) internally.

I did a recent set of piano CDs with the Neumann digital mics (their equivalent of what you have) - you can read it HERE.

The digital route should be no more expensive (possibly cheaper) than the pre-amps you suggested.

But, any of the pre-amps you listed should be excellent - or get the Nagra VI like I (and several other people on this forum) did.

I hope this helps.

[David Spearritt]

Hi Gianluca,

Piano recording is what I specialise in.

After trying many high end preamps and mics, including AMEK, Nagra V, custom valve, I now use the Forssell SMP-2 feeding a Forssell MADC-2.

The results leave one wishing for nothing more, quite simply the best rendition of a classical piano I have heard. At the moment mic pairs I use include MK21, M150 Tube and 4006 TL.

[Don S]

Love the MK21 and 4006 on piano. Give the A-designs Pacifica a try as well as the others listed. These are very accurate mics, and the Pacifica might add just a hint of character to the recording.

[Roland]

Whatever gear you choose to use, I would employ a producer. You need someone to be objective about your playing and performance and few (if any artists) I've ever come across can seperate themselves from the performing.

that being said all the gear you have mentioned above and that has been recommended by others, is capable of producing excellent results of the required standard. Whilst I appreciate that your budget might be low, I would really think about having another set of ears that you trust on the project, otherwise it will easily be compromised.

Regards


Roland

[Larry Elliott]

Roland has given you the most important advice - you need to have someone else in the “signal chain”. In my view, the experience of a great producer can make more of a difference to any recording than a change in any piece of equipment.

Larry

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Roland

Whatever gear you choose to use, I would employ a producer. You need someone to be objective about your playing and performance and few (if any artists) I've ever come across can separate themselves from the performing.

Agreed - very important.

A good producer will listen and make sure everything is played correctly (noting bum notes, etc.) and, I find, is essential in helping to get the best performance from the performer.

[didier.brest]

At the moment mic pairs I use include MK21, M150 Tube and 4006 TL.

Hi David,

I would be much interested in a shootout with these mics. Could you comment on how you choice one or another? I'm just a piano playing and recording amateur. I have got MK21, DPA 4060 and FLEA 50.
Cheers,
Didier

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

Hi David,

I would be much interested in a shootout with these mics. Could you comment on how you choice one or another? I'm just a piano playing anr recording amateur. I have got MK21, DPA 4060 and FLEA 50.
Cheers,
Didier

Will try to multi-track the pairs next month when I record the Goldbergs sound check and post. I will add the AKG 426 to the selection as well. My plan for the real recording will be the 426 as main pair with M150 outriggers.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

I would be much interested in a shootout with these mics.

My choice of piano mics is quite different - I have used the MKH 20 for many years, the last big project was done with the KM 183-D and the next I plan to try out the new MKH 8020, possibly with the MZD 8000 digital module.

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Will try to multi-track the pairs next month when I record the Goldbergs sound check and post. I will add the AKG 426 to the selection as well.

Waow! If you could do that, it would be great!

[videoteque]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

I'm just a piano playing anr recording amateur. I have got MK21, DPA 4060 and FLEA 50.

Didier, if you turn pro, what will you do?? Resurrect Mr. Neumann??

To David posting some sample of his mics!

[sunflute]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

After trying many high end preamps and mics, including AMEK, Nagra V, custom valve, I now use the Forssell SMP-2 feeding a Forssell MADC-2.

The results leave one wishing for nothing more, quite simply the best rendition of a classical piano I have heard.

+1. Although not a comment on piano, I feel exactly the same......after trying many, many preamps and converters for flute, I now use the Forssell SMP-2 into a MADC-2. Same results as quoted above.

[0VU]

Usually a Crookwood Paintpot and dCS (900/904) for me. Though it does vary a bit.


However, I've not yet tried the Forssell preamps or AD converter, partly due to a lack of UK distribution/support and, partly, to laziness on my part in organising it. Given that gear reliability and backup are very important to me (I doubt I'm alone in this) and the service I get from both Crookwood and dCS is examplary (and local-ish), I'm wary of taking on equipment from a company with no proper UK representation. The other thing that slightly bothered me was that I read somewhere (possibly Forssell's website) that the converter lacks an sync input, which seems a strange omission and pretty much rules it out for multichannel work.

With the extremely positive comments it's getting here and elsewhere I really hope Forssell get the UK distribution/support thing sorted (and fit a sync input to the converter!) as I'd quite like to give it a go, and so I could be confident of getting it fixed in a hurry if the need ever arose.

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by 0VU

The other thing that slightly bothered me was that I read somewhere (possibly Forssell's website) that the converter lacks an sync input, which seems a strange omission and pretty much rules it out for multichannel work.

Correct. But with a clock this good, you want it to be the master. It certainly has WC output, with an option for another output to drive all those inferior clocks in the rest of the gear.

[tones12]

Hi everyone,

As you can see, first post - i have been reading lots of slutz threads over a while - I thought this would be a good place to jump in and try to contribute.

Originally Posted by achabloop5080

Hi guys,
I'm a classical pianist and my plan is to record my next classical solo piano cds (mainly live recordings in beautiful acoustics) but with no compromise in quality (possibly).

I'm also a 'confirmed' piano player, and have also spent a few years working and training as a sound man - so still blue and learning maybe, but miking/recording pianos is a keen interest.
I think you can record yourself, experiment mike and couple placement, all in the comfort of a studio or even your living room, but recording your own SOLO performance, in a hall and on a piano you might not be familiar with is on a whole different level: I think you're stacking the odds against yourself by wearing both hats at the same time. But YMMV of course.
How are you gonna deal with mike placement, and monitor your input gain settings while playing? Even with spaced omnis?
Not to mention the audience expects a performer, not a techie!..

Originally Posted by achabloop5080

I'd like to buy the "definitive" stereo preamp and A/D converter

It would be good to know what you're recording TO (ie DAT, Nagra, DAW...), as it seems you have a world class front end anyway (why didn't you add an MK8 capsule for M/S instead of a 3rd stereo pair?), and I can't be convinced that a 184D trumps a standard KM 184 over first rate pres and conversion (for ex lavry blue preamps+AD- > SD 722 for ex)

When recording, I'd keep the signal chain as short/reliable as possible and maybe try a pair of 3552's in your ears!

cheers

[0VU]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Correct. But with a clock this good, you want it to be the master. It certainly has WC output, with an option for another output to drive all those inferior clocks in the rest of the gear.

Fair enough but since I already have a selection of passable master clocks (including dCS 992 and 995), I'm not really hearing a problem with inferior clocking And regardless of how good is the Forssell's clock as a master, there will be times when I want it to work with other converters to increase channel count and it's complete inability to slave to an external clock rules it out and consigns it to stereo only work unless I want to reconfigure the clocking arrangements with which I'm happy and trust the Forssell AD to be better, or at least no worse, than my usual clock.

Whilst I still do a lot/most of my work straight to stereo, I have seriously to think whether I need/can afford a converter that won't readily play nice with my existing gear when I need it to. In an increasingly multichannel world, where interconnectivity is ever more important/useful, it seems an odd omission that does nothing to help sales.

No matter. I'd stil like to hear it and a lack of sync input on the ADC won't put me off trying the preamps if I get the opportunity.

[Gaston69]

Paintpot with the AD converter does it for me and for my clients too

[ptr]

On a grand.. What ever I have, which in my case mean; Grace M802 or DAV BG Pre's , Prism Sound ADA-8XR Conv's ..

I've always felt/belived that the player, the Room, the instrument then the mikes are much more important than the pre's and converters (as long as they're of reasonable quality)! ...

I usually use Neumann TLM-50 on Solo Grand Piano, can't think of a better mike for that instrument! ...

/ptr

[David Spearritt]

No justification required 0VU, I understood your situation and agree with your assessment about interfacing with your already very fine A/D. The MADC2 is aimed at very high quality stereo and Fred warns you about the bare bones nature of the converter when you order. But its one of the things that attracted me to it in the first place.

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by ptr

I usually use Neumann TLM-50 on Solo Grand Piano, can't think of a better mike for that instrument! ...

Oh yes, agreed, except perhaps the M150.

[ptr]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Oh yes, agreed, except perhaps the M150.

I've only used the M150 on a Grand once, so I don't have any definitive experience with it... But I found it a bit "softer"* than the TLM-50, which might be a result of the concert hall I had at my disposal for that recording..

I hope to try it more in the future!

/ptr

* I'm not sure that is the correct description in english, but softer as in less defined, maybe, more prone to pick up wall reflexes.. I don't know, might be something my ears made up!

[Plush]

I happen to believe that the hall is, after the playa and instrument, the most important part of the sound and well ahead of any equipment.

So choose your hall carefully and deliberately.

My first choice, believe it or not, is the d.a.v. electronics Broadhurst Gardens No. 1 mic amp. I base this choice solely on sound. I always reach for it alone as I head to Carnegie Hall for piano work.

A different view comes in to play with remote controlled mic amps in larger halls (or mic amps on stage). From your list this argues for the Crookwood Paintpot, a superb unit. The Crookwood and the Gordon mic amp are our remote controlled choices here.

I have not heard the Forsell but the excellent comments are coming from trusted and esteemed ears.

Differences in halls swamp any differences in the gear.

[joelpatterson]

Like everyone else, I also specialize in piano recording...

I'm a big believer in matching the gear to the instrument and room-- some combinations just work, and others just don't.

Anyone for a Mozart Fantasy in D minor?

4shared.com - online file sharing and storage - download Fantasy in D minor by Mozart--Summer Sonata.mp3


(From last month: an 80's era Steinway B, pair of Sputniks & pair of Earthworks QTC 30's, Sytek pres through a Presonus ACP 88, captured with an Alesis HD24, mixed down in Digital Performer.)