Help me choose some PA speakers!

[RMJAZZ]

Here is my situation;

I am an artist. A sax player that does Contemporary Jazz and Gospel music a lot. With my recording 4 solo projects, I have become interested in the extreme high end side of the recording arena, and would like to translate as much of that to my live rig as possible. I have fallen in love with the SLS speakers ( and own one of their monitors that I bring whenever it makes sense) as they have given me the most realistic sound reproduction of my saxophone and voice that I have ever heard in a PA cabinet.

My goal is to get something that is respected enough for me to integrate into a larger rental type PA rig in the future. I would have gotten the SLS dual 8" line array boxes, but since they are going out of business...or so I have been told, maybe they are not the best option for customer support! LOL

The Meyer boxes are cool, but very expensive. What suggestions do any of you have for me? Is any one else making ribbon drivers in PA boxes?

Again, I am looking for a system that I can put together over time, into a system acceptable for National acts to use in medium sized theatres.

Thank you for responding,
Rob

[bishopthomas]

A budget would help. Are you ready to spend $3-5000 per box (plus amps, processing, cabling, etc)? If so I'm a big fan of L'Acoustics. The dvDosc is small and versatile and will be rider friendly when you get to that point.

[RMJAZZ]

Yeah, I know I am getting into an expensive situation. Do you have any experience with D&B speakers?

The original system I completely spec'd out for the SLS speakers ended up around $200,000. I want to start with a monitor rig and very small FOH set up (Midas Venice 320) that I can use for my own band, and use the monitor rig when doing larger shows at Churches that have inadequate monitors but usable FOH cabs/amps.


Rob

[jasonraboin]

I tour carrying Meyer and D&B gear. The best monitors, IMHO, are the L'acoustics 115fm. When I'm on a budget, the KV2 EX12 are a fantastic powered monitor. Check 'em out.

For mains, the Meyer CQ series are pretty amazing. Certainly not a bargain, but amazing.

[rwhealey]

EV QRx212 sounds great and can be used as a monitor when turned on its side. My local national level venue uses them as sidefills. The EV ZxA5 would probably fit the bill too, but I haven't heard it myself.

[Jim vanBergen]

The SLS speakers sound pretty good in the near field, but the signal does not translate so well to the distant field in a theatre or auditorium. I have mixed dozens of acts on an SLS line array, and I think that a combination of factors- after you & the instrument: -mic, placement, mic preamp, console path, amp, cable & speaker- all have a lot of impact.

If you have determined that Meyer are too costly, there are other routes but it really depends on what you want to do. The best thing is to design a PA system specifically for a given room. The next best thing is to have a very talented FOH mixer who knows what you want, and how to operate various equipment all around the world so you get the right sound every time.

If you are determined to buy a speaker system, I agree you should be looking at Meyer, D&B, L'Acoustics, and if you're buying line arrays, you should also listen to JBL's VerTec systems. None are perfect, all have flaws as well as facets of brilliance. But if you are in love with SLS, then go for it. Do what your ears tell you.

Let us know what you do, and good luck!

JvB

[space2012]

Originally Posted by RMJAZZ

Is any one else making ribbon drivers in PA boxes?

Peavey.Versarray™
http://www.peavey.com/assets/literat...00584090_3.pdf

but...

i like much more the sound of EV Eliminator,
or ZX1 or Evid 8

with verry nice proel 2x12 cable
and QSC DCA amps.

[RMJAZZ]

I've always found the EV boxes to be too harsh sounding. Haven't heard the Peavey versarray line, but I don't want to ask a national act to rent a peavey system....wouldn't go over too well with the artists I know.

Maybe Meyer is my best solution. I might check out some used gear.....



Rob

[RMJAZZ]

Originally Posted by Dave Ferris

Don't know how loud you're going to be playing but I did a trio gig with a Jazz/RnB type singer in an outdoor amphitheater. The sound company had just purchased the ZxA5s, they really sounded good to me. I was using my Yamaha CP300 digital piano and it sounded very realistic, not electronic at all. And I'm real picky since I normally can't stand the sound of DPs. I would definitely check those out. A lot cheaper than Meyer or L'Acoustics. Hard to demo on the West Coast though. Ev doesn't have a huge presence out here. I had to go to extreme measures before I was able to get my ears and hands on my current pair of the EV SXA 360s.

Although my favorite Jazz speaker for smaller venues, especially when I'm doing the schlepping, is that L' Acoustics 108P. At 28 lbs. that little thing sounds amazing. It doesn't sound like a 8" speaker in there. They are expensive, around $2500 per box. But if you have the dough and are doing Jazz, plus a musician doing the schlepping yourself, I think it's the greatest thing going...sound/weight wise.

I'll have to check out the L'Acoustics speakers, and I have a recommendation to listen to the D&B monitors (both form respected sources).

Thanks for all the great input!

Rob

[Don S]

Another for the KV2 Audio EX12. Very heavy, as much as a UPA-1, and great sounding monitor. However, they are not made in this country. I know there was talk of opening up a service facility in the states, but so far none to my knowledge. I've also worked with the L'acoustics and have gotten good results. I did get a chance to hear the QSC K8. Even at that size, they were impressive.

[RMJAZZ]

I've been trying to convince myself to go try the QSC stuff....mainly the line array boxes they have. For some reason I just have a hard time convincing myself that they can compete with the JBL/Meyer/Vdosc systems. I was quoted $4500/box for the Wideline 10 (dual 10" line array). In that price range I can get equipment that will be accepted by almost any band on the road.

I wish there were a place to go and listen to the big line array options next to each other. You could choose ahead of time what you wanted to hear...QSC Wideline 10 vs. JBL VT4887 vs. Meyer Melodie, vs. whatever. Dreamland is nice isn't it? LOL

The line array boxes sound great, but you should have something other than that in the warehouse too for when you can't fly, b/c in my experience, ground stacking line arrays is not a good choice. I think it is done out of budget needs.

There are too many good choices for PA speakers these days! It seems the manufacturers are starting to go in the right direction. I wish the ATC PA speakers weren't $6000 per box and only push 350 watts! I would need 10-12 of them. But the design is in the right direction.

[jasonraboin]

I have mixed on the QSC Wideline, and it's not even in the same league as the M'elodie.

For what I mix, the Meyer, D&B, and L'acoustics line arrays are the best, with the Nexo not far behind. The "bargain" seems to be the Vertec, but only with the V4 crossover presets. While all three sizes have been greatly improved, the 4888 has become a fantastic system with the implementation of the new crossover settings.

If you are talking about high fidelity in smaller theatre settings, and also want it scalable, I wouldn't rule out non line array systems. The Nexo Alpha and D&B C series sound absolutely amazing. As I mentioned before, the Meyer CQ series are also great. I have done smaller theatres, under 1000 capacity, with a CQ2 (narrower) tipped back on top of a CQ1. The CQ2 covers the balcony, the CQ1 the orchestra. For Folk/Jazz you don't even need subs.

I have not had a chance to use it yet, but check out the KV2 VHD.

[RMJAZZ]

Originally Posted by jasonraboin

I have mixed on the QSC Wideline, and it's not even in the same league as the M'elodie.

For what I mix, the Meyer, D&B, and L'acoustics line arrays are the best, with the Nexo not far behind. The "bargain" seems to be the Vertec, but only with the V4 crossover presets. While all three sizes have been greatly improved, the 4888 has become a fantastic system with the implementation of the new crossover settings.

If you are talking about high fidelity in smaller theatre settings, and also want it scalable, I wouldn't rule out non line array systems. The Nexo Alpha and D&B C series sound absolutely amazing. As I mentioned before, the Meyer CQ series are also great. I have done smaller theatres, under 1000 capacity, with a CQ2 (narrower) tipped back on top of a CQ1. The CQ2 covers the balcony, the CQ1 the orchestra. For Folk/Jazz you don't even need subs.

I have not had a chance to use it yet, but check out the KV2 VHD.

I think you've got a good idea...I should get the non-line array boxes to start. Use them for my small personal gigs, and then allocate them to stage side fills when renting my system out for larger shows.....Meyer does offer some fantastic solutions, it's just hard to stomach 5000-6000 per box for small speakers. But they would get the job done.

I really need to get in front of these other brands that I hear about, but haven't listened to yet.

Thanks for the input!

Rob

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by RMJAZZ

I think you've got a good idea...I should get the non-line array boxes to start. Use them for my small personal gigs, and then allocate them to stage side fills when renting my system out for larger shows.....Meyer does offer some fantastic solutions, it's just hard to stomach 5000-6000 per box for small speakers. But they would get the job done.

I really need to get in front of these other brands that I hear about, but haven't listened to yet.

Thanks for the input!

Rob

I do mainly acoustic groups (violin, acoustic guitar, reeds, piano, bass, vocal) with a smattering of jazz and dance bands, as well as corporate meetings. After auditioning most of the plastic powered boxes, I landed on RCF 322As about four years ago (RCF ART322-A Powered Speaker - www.rmcaudiodirect.com). Four of them, over a pair of powered 18" subs, handle dang near every gig I do these days... 100-600 people. The large PA (EV, old-school Altec, and Crest power) hasn't been out since April.

They are 12" bass drivers with a 2" horn, and need very little main EQ. Mostly, they're "musical" without the midrange harshness I was always cutting from the EV and JBL boxes I used in the past. They're about $1K a box, so they aren't cheap... but they aren't CQs or M'elodies, either. And, when the big rig does go out, they make great wedges. RCF, by the way, is one of the largest producers of speaker components in the world. Designed and OEM'd for EAW (raw drivers), JBL (original EONs) and Mackie (SRM450), among others.

[waveterm]

If you´re in the market for a high end line array, you need to check out these :

Nexo Geo-S12 or Geo-D
d&b Q-1 or J-series
L´Acoustic Kudo or K1

Factors such as weight, size, availability of more cabinets in your area, boxes v.s amps etc.

Also, while the selfpowered ( such as Meyer or Vertec ) boxes are cool, the added weight could be a major problem in deploying the rig in various situations.

Don´t forget to factor in costs for rigging hardware, chain hoists, cases, spares, cables, ampracks, tools, computer, systemcontroller.

I would not choose a Midas Venice if you are looking to match it with a high-end line-array. The Venice is good for what it costs but it doesn´t have all the bells and whistles that one would require. Only 4 monitor sends, unbalanced inserts, not flexible enough eq etc.

Look into either a good digital board, from the Yamaha M7CL and up.

If going the analog route, you would need to add the appropriate processing. A couple of high-end reverbs, a delay with tap-tempo, 8 quality channels of compressor, 6 channles of gates, master eq, Intercom, playback units.

Don´t forget the multicable. 300 feet should be enough for most situations. Stagesnakes, mic-cables, stands, DI´s, Mic´s. PDU, powercables. Cases, tools.

As for monitors, I would look at what´s available locally and choose something I could subrent if more was needed.

The list goes on and on........

Lights ? Don´t get me started.....

WT

[RMJAZZ]

Originally Posted by waveterm

If you´re in the market for a high end line array, you need to check out these :

Nexo Geo-S12 or Geo-D
d&b Q-1 or J-series
L´Acoustic Kudo or K1

Factors such as weight, size, availability of more cabinets in your area, boxes v.s amps etc.

Also, while the selfpowered ( such as Meyer or Vertec ) boxes are cool, the added weight could be a major problem in deploying the rig in various situations.

Don´t forget to factor in costs for rigging hardware, chain hoists, cases, spares, cables, ampracks, tools, computer, systemcontroller.

I would not choose a Midas Venice if you are looking to match it with a high-end line-array. The Venice is good for what it costs but it doesn´t have all the bells and whistles that one would require. Only 4 monitor sends, unbalanced inserts, not flexible enough eq etc.

Look into either a good digital board, from the Yamaha M7CL and up.

If going the analog route, you would need to add the appropriate processing. A couple of high-end reverbs, a delay with tap-tempo, 8 quality channels of compressor, 6 channles of gates, master eq, Intercom, playback units.

Don´t forget the multicable. 300 feet should be enough for most situations. Stagesnakes, mic-cables, stands, DI´s, Mic´s. PDU, powercables. Cases, tools.

As for monitors, I would look at what´s available locally and choose something I could subrent if more was needed.

The list goes on and on........

Lights ? Don´t get me started.....

WT

I appreciate the looking out WaveTerm. I am perfectly aware of all the extras needed. I would start w/ the Venice console b/c it does what I personally need for my own gigs....I can rent/borrow a ton of gear from local PA contractors. So if I need a large frame console (XL3/Heritage 3k/PM5D/PM1 etc....) I can get my hands on them easily and inexpensively for a single day event. I probably would also pick up an M7CL 48 as soon as possible. Then I would only need 1 other console to pull off a larger event.

I think the monitors are the most important, and I would look to rent FOH (console and speakers) if needed. The most deficient area I see (from rental companies to venues) are in the monitors. It's a piece of cake to rent a Vertec rig for a day around the D.C. area, and I wouldn't need to do so all that often.

Recently, I did a Jazz Festival and I was the opening act...so of course I got screwed on the monitor mix....and the contractor brought in warfdale wedges and JBL prx gear! If it were "my" gig I would have went home and waited until they brought in some real gear. When my set was over, my ears hurt so bad b/c of the crap drivers in those wedges. I would like to bring my own wedges when possible from now on. I'll tell promoters that they can rent monitors, but I wont use them....I'll use my own. Festivals are tough cause if you aren't the biggest cheese on the bill the PA companies screw you over anyway you look at it. I have worked with very few companies that run festivals well. They can get me and my PA as a package...LOL And know it will be done right. No low balling a bid and then not having the labor or skills to do the gig properly.

Sorry for my rant...


Oh and on lights.....I understand and agree!

[waveterm]

Looks like you have it under control...spend your money wisely and all will be well.

WT

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by RMJAZZ

Festivals are tough cause if you aren't the biggest cheese on the bill the PA companies screw you over anyway you look at it. I have worked with very few companies that run festivals well. They can get me and my PA as a package...LOL And know it will be done right. No low balling a bid and then not having the labor or skills to do the gig properly.

Wow, for some of us who regularly mix festivals, that is a harsh opinion. So I production manage and am the head audio for a northeastern series of events. Union crew, no slackers. Serious people who love what they do and treat people right. The crowds are from 1,000-25,000, vary depending on the act's draw. So I hang a large VerTec array with L'Acoustics subwoofers capable of handling the full audience area. I provide digital consoles at FOH and Monitors- usually PM5D's. Sometimes people want a Heritage 3000 at FOH fully loaded, ok on that. Sometimes people want DiGiCo and sometimes they want digidesign profile, those are OK too.

For monitors, it's either Firehouse F12s or Clair 12AMs with Crown power; Meyer USW-P for drum sub, and Meyer CQ's for sidefills. If an act demands self-powered wedges, then its' L'Acoustics 115's or Meyer UM-1Ps. Are you telling me you would refuse to work on this system, that you would only accept the gig if you could bring in your own wedges & consoles for monitors? I've had plenty of top acts, --pop, rock, country, R&B, hip-hop, and world music stars-- be very happy with this rig.

Please, I'm not dissing you, I'm really concerned that there is a possibility I have not imagined, that an artists would simply refuse to play without their rig. Can you expound on this?

Thanks,

JvB

[RMJAZZ]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Wow, for some of us who regularly mix festivals, that is a harsh opinion. So I production manage and am the head audio for a northeastern series of events. Union crew, no slackers. Serious people who love what they do and treat people right. The crowds are from 1,000-25,000, vary depending on the act's draw. So I hang a large VerTec array with L'Acoustics subwoofers capable of handling the full audience area. I provide digital consoles at FOH and Monitors- usually PM5D's. Sometimes people want a Heritage 3000 at FOH fully loaded, ok on that. Sometimes people want DiGiCo and sometimes they want digidesign profile, those are OK too.

For monitors, it's either Firehouse F12s or Clair 12AMs with Crown power; Meyer USW-P for drum sub, and Meyer CQ's for sidefills. If an act demands self-powered wedges, then its' L'Acoustics 115's or Meyer UM-1Ps. Are you telling me you would refuse to work on this system, that you would only accept the gig if you could bring in your own wedges & consoles for monitors? I've had plenty of top acts, --pop, rock, country, R&B, hip-hop, and world music stars-- be very happy with this rig.

Please, I'm not dissing you, I'm really concerned that there is a possibility I have not imagined, that an artists would simply refuse to play without their rig. Can you expound on this?

Thanks,

JvB

Hi Jim,

I appreciate the fact that you are out there in the trenches, and it sounds like you are doing shows the right way. Here is the situation I seem to find myself in this year;

I am an artist that is in-between being a "local" band and "national" act. I guess it's tough in my shoes b/c there are a lot of people (promoters mostly to blame! and some sound contractors) that figure they can do whatever they want with my production rider (which really isn't that intense!). The main issue is that for some reason, this year I seem to be getting a lot of gigs where I feel ignored as an artist. For example, I did a recent gig (with tracks mind you....) where they ran monitors from FOH. That's cool, b/c they also put an engineer on the wing of the stage for me to communicate with during the show should I have any issues.......whenever I tried to get his attention, he was in conversation with someone standing next to him and his eyes were not on the stage. So, I had to wait until his conversation was done to get my monitor change communicated! This didn't just happen once or twice but 3 or 4 times.

If my "status" was a bit higher in the industry I would feel a little more ability to demand things be handled differently, But with the above situation, I am left dealing with it after the fact, and then I look like the jerk. Maybe my answer is to travel with 2 engineers instead of one! Who knows.......I just feel that I am continually getting shafted when I do shows that I am not involved in the planning/booking of a sound company. I can't afford to not show up to a gig and risk not getting paid. I am now adding a bunch of things to my rider( like- the monitor engineer MUST pay attention to the artist during the artists set) multitasking is a requirement! LOL

The straw that broke the camels back and caused my rant in the earlier post, was the company that thought JBL PRX series, and Warfdale monitor wedges (when my rider calls for SLS, Meyer, and the like) were appropriate for an outdoor Jazz festival. My ears literally hurt when my set was done! These guys couldn't even get my talking mic working during my 45 minute set! So I had to talk into my Beta 98 on the sax!!!! I know they low-balled the promoter, and to be honest, I'm not sure if she cares! I will be sitting down with her to discuss the point of taking care of the PA properly, and making sure the stage is staffed correctly. Who knows, maybe I didn't advance this gig well enough. But even if I found out about what crap they were setting up for the show should I have refused to do the gig? I have musicians that have bills too.....

There must be some medium between the $5000 PA quote and booking a company that has no clue what they are doing! Surely there are those out there that can meet a reasonable price and still do the gig right.........????

I appreciate your feedback Jim. I think this forum is a place where we can all talk things out and maybe avoid some future frustrations!

In Music,
Rob

[RMJAZZ]

You know Dave Matthews Band bought their own PA rig....so there are some thinking along the line of keeping some of that "in-house" so to speak. Maybe it could be worked out with a PA company that could "manage" the bands PA and crew the shows properly. But then, you are getting into the artist/band being a "part" owner in the sound company......which in reality is the same as the band buying the PA and staffing it on their own. Here you are just buying in to an existing company. Which is probably not a bad idea!