Location Upright Piano gig... Need some Assistance

[TRCS]

Hey guys,

I've got a recording gig coming up real soon, where the main instrument is Piano- Most of the tracks are going to be ONLY piano, but some might have other minor acoustic instruments. It's pretty well Classical- this 18 year old girl writes pretty incredible stuff!

Anyway, she checked out another studio first, but I believe they could only do midi, which of course she didn't want AT all. So through a friend she heard about my "studio" which is a real small project studio (a control room and a super small "booth" about 9x9. Anyway, we decided it would be best for me to probably come to her place for the tracking, since she has a piano that she likes, and is used to. I'm going tonight to scope out the surroundings, but from what they told me it's a fairly decent size room, with wood floors (the ceiling is about 8 feet I think, unfortunately). The piano itself is an 80s Yamaha upright- I think they said the model was M1, made is Japan...

So my questions are-

What should I be looking for tonight when I see the room? I think it's their living room, but they said we can move stuff around if we have to.

What mics/pres should I bring with me? I have Great River, and APIs. Mics are KM184s, AT4047, and a few dynamics (SM7B, 57, D6, 421, e609 etc).

Micing techniques? I'm not sure how much they would appreciate me taking apart the piano, but let me hear anything that's worked for you!

Any other suggestions would be great... I'll post back here tonight when I have a better idea of the room and how it sounds etc.

Last but not least, would it maybe be worth looking into getting a church to record in? I have quite a few contacts that would probably allow me to grab the church for a few sessions- most have baby grands, which would be nice! This also creates more work for both me and the client, possibly more money as well- which is why I'm checking out her house first.

Anyway, enough talking... Help would be awesome! Thanks guys

[Roland]

It really depends on her level and budget. For classical stuff, upright piano's are not going to give you the sound, eqaully well going to a church that happens to have a grand is no guarantee. If it's just a demo of her stuff, she might be better off playing it on a midi grand, listen to some of the demo's of synthologies? sp? Ivory. As much as I don't think that sampled piano's are the best option, I would find this much more acceptable than a bad piano in a person's home. Much the problem with midi piano's are the velocity set-ups, unless these are right they tend not to feel/sound pianistic. At the other end of the scale a good concert Steinway in a good church/concert hall acoustic is the pinacle, but at a considerable cost in terms of hire.

Regards


Roland

[TRCS]

Thanks for the reply... Yeah, those thoughts are kinda what's been going through my mind. The thing is, she doesn't want to do Midi AT ALL. The reason I got this gig over another studio, is because I was accommodating her want to record with a real piano, while the other studio only offered midi.

I'll have a better idea tonight once I see what her room is like, and hear the piano in the room.

Thanks for your time!

Any other thoughts???

[didier.brest]

I like AT4047 on piano (sample), the highs are so sweet... But two km184 should be less colored, which may be an advantage or not depending on the piano and the sound that you want. I would test also a pair of MD421.

[hbphotoav]

Been a while since I've mic'ed an upright... the last one was in the pit at a musical... but it's good you can hear it in situ. Listen carefully for noises (pedals, dampers, squeaky seat) that she will likely not notice, as they become "white noise" after a period of time for folks in the house. Be sure it's been recently tuned, and then, perhaps, move it around a bit to find a sweet spot (as sweet as it will get) in the room. The usual "walk around listening hard" applies... then meeting (and, hopefully, exceeding) her expectation. Does she want a "bigger-than-life" pop sound, or a very truthful "facsimile" of the performance?

Off the cuff, and never having heard it or the room it's in... I might start with a bit of space all around the instrument, the 4047 in the "sweet spot" off the soundboard, and the KM184s in a stereo config in the "sweet spot" in the room. Are you tracking any live vocals? That might require a blanket over the top and front of the piano and mic'ing the backside only, to achieve some separation and kill the vocal slap off the front panel.

Don't forget to turn off the HVAC, computers, telephones and the refrigerator.

Don't forget to turn the refrigerator back on when you leave.

:-)

[TRCS]

Hey guys, thanks for the insight- I'll definitely keep all those points in mind.

So I checked out the room tonight and I really think it's going to work... It's a mid sized living room, with wood floors like I mentioned... and it's got a few couches, which I think will help with the low end- as well as bookshelves almost across both walls (huge bookshelves). I'm going to take a few of my bass traps as well, and fit them in where I can.

Should I look into picking up another AT4047 to run two stereo pairs? Or, just the KM184s and mono AT4047? Also, we took off the front board to expose the strings- when micing the soundboard, do you mic the strings directly? Or the back of it? I don't think the back comes off?

She's getting it tuned a day or two before we start tracking, so that's covered- also we already talked about not running AC and phones. There aren't any vocals being done, so don't have to worry about that!

Anything else I should look into? The session isn't until Sept 10th now, so I do have some time to get together other options if need be.

Thanks so much, I'll keep checking the thread, and hopefully post some stuff after everything is finished.

Cheers guys

[didier.brest]

Yes you can mice the back of the soundboard.

From Piano principles

The constricted physical nature of an upright piano makes life even harder for the engineer than with grand pianos. However, we can immediately discard all the distant-mic techniques (see above) because the piano simply does not radiate sound in an appropriate way. The easiest technique is to open the top lid and mic from above with one or two mics as appropriate. Positioning the mics inside the cavity provides greater isolation but tends to sound coloured, particularly at the top end. Another good technique for isolation is to tape pressure-zone mics to the wall directly behind the soundboard (remove the casework first), or use a bespoke contact mic like the C-Ducers. A better solution is to remove the kick board at the front of the piano below the keyboard and use a pair of mics to pick up the bass and treble strings to the right and left (respectively). Better still is to remove the back of the piano to reveal the soundboard, and use a pair of mics, one each side as before -- all the positioning rules previously discussed still apply. This gives rather less hammer noise and a better balance of sound to my ears, but make sure the piano is well away from walls -- the soundboard should be facing into the room, not the wall! If there is sufficient space, another technique is to put pressure-zone mics on the floor anything up to a metre away from the piano and slightly wider. It makes little difference whether in front or behind the piano.

I don't know what the author means by

to remove the back of the piano

because there is generally nothing to be removed at the back of an upright piano...

[Chucho]

I'm currently recording my own upright in my house. After a lot of experimenting:
I turned it around so the back is facing out. Mic the back.
I use 2 sdc's (beyer Mc930) 12"away - 30"apart. Obviously those positions might not apply in this instance.
Tune it.
Check out really carefully for pedal noise. Get your tuner guy to fix noise. Don't blast it with oil / WD40 or anything. Let him do it.
Keep moving the mics until you are happy.


Forgot to say - remove as many panels as possible. The one at the front above the pedals is always off mine.
Also the hpf on my mics are REALLY useful. Unbelievable amount of noise/rumble when not on.

[TRCS]

Awesome advice guys, thanks.

As for pedal noises, apparently it squeeks here and there- except when she was trying to show me ofcourse. I told her to make notes off all the little noises she hears over the next while and have her tuner go over them, so that's covered!

As for micing, should I start with the stereo 184s out in the room more so than close up? I'm thinking a good way to start is 184s more so out in the room and then my 4047 picking up either the front or back of the soundboard- and one of my dynamics getting the other.

Good idea about the hpf! Definitely gunna do that.

I'm getting excited to try this out- first time tracking a real piano!

Thanks a ton guys!

[didier.brest]

In a small room, I would put all the mikes close to the piano and add digital reverb if needed.

[TRCS]

So guys, I finally had this piano gig yesterday and today... For my first piano/location gig I think it went really well... We ran into pedal noises half way through the first day- even though her tuner/maintenance guy was there the previous day. He came back and did what he could, which wasn't perfect, but better at least!

I'll try posting stuff as soon as I'm finished with it. Hopefully within the next week.

Thanks again for all the help. Much appreciated!

Cheers,
Luke