Recording Orchestra for soundtrack

[fatcatmusic]

Hi,

I would like to know if recording for soundtrack is any different from recording 'traditional' orchestra ?

I heard that in soundtrack recording, the sections are separated to give a cleaner sound for mixing; the brass section is separate or sometimes overdubbed to give a bigger sound and for easier manupulation in mixing. Is that true?

And when mixing do you use more of the room mics or the spot mics? In soundtrack usually people go for a big/ grand hall reverb sound so should I use less of the room mics?

Thanks for the advice.

[fatcatmusic]

Bump?

[drBill]

There are no "rules". Many situations are different, and (hopefully) the scoring engineer consults with the composer long before the session to help him decide on setup. Yes, it's not unusual to overdub brass, but I'd say it's generally not the "preferred" way of doing it. Still, many scores would almost demand it.

Mostly room mics. Decca tree up front by conductor and a couple of wide mics as well. Often more. Spot mics on everyone else to help pull out a part or chase lines if necessary, but I generally use 70-80% room mics in the mix.

[narcoman]

On bigger budgets it's very much as expected. Orchestra in the room - lots of work and getting the right performance.

However - generally it's multitracked and overdubbed. I was in Abbey Road just last week on a small session.... The budget was tight so, as usual, the session was multi tracked and overdubbed. Also helps to keep control of costs as well as "fluff" risk

Brass on it's own. Percussion - samples apart from timps. Two string session - One with bass, celli and viola. Second session with a largish violin section.

Makes it a bit tougher intonation wise - but London has the best players in the world !!

My mic setup - Decca tree, general mid string left/right, outriggers, two ambients facing backwards and spot mics on decks and groups. Bras has individual spots.

As for reverb - I use very little apart from EMT 140 on strings. Abbey Road has "that" sound out of the box !!

[Larry Elliott]

Narcoman

Was this Studio 1 or 2?

Thanks

Larry

[narcoman]

studio 2.

Studio 1 has that "Star Wars" hugeness... 2 is beter on smal sections - it's also got a surprisingly short rev tail!

guess who was in studio 3? !!!

..



















Eddie Kramer !!

[fatcatmusic]

I also overdub in my sessions to give a bigger sound. But somehow it is still not quite like what I have in mind so at times I have to secretly add in some of my string samples to give a fuller sound. I was recording in Czech and I the orch. performance is pretty good. I just want to know what I should be aware of when I record next time, I really want a smooth, warm and big sound.

Another thing is, there are quite a lot of sound bleeding in between scetions, e.g. string section bleeding into woodwind mic. etc, so it is differcult to say, ride the oboe track without affect the others. And when I mute the oboe track when it is not playing, I'm afraid that I may affect the overall balance of the orch ( I'm thinking about the image of the orch ). Maybe I should use more of the room mic but the room mics don't sound very good and for some reason the obos just pierced through the orch and really stand out. most frustrating.

How do you get around this problem?

BTW, I am just the composer, not the engineer. But after the recording I'd like to take the files home and do the mixing myself in 5.1.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by fatcatmusic

I also overdub in my sessions to give a bigger sound. But somehow it is still not quite like what I have in mind so at times I have to secretly add in some of my string samples to give a fuller sound. I was recording in Czech and I the orch. performance is pretty good. I just want to know what I should be aware of when I record next time, I really want a smooth, warm and big sound.

Hire a band with a big warm sound and a good sounding room, then make sure the engineer is experienced enough to capture that sound. Cold, edgy, fragile sounding recordings come from scratchy playing, poor intonation, hard sounding rooms and poor mic choice/engineering.

Another thing is, there are quite a lot of sound bleeding in between scetions, e.g. string section bleeding into woodwind mic. etc, so it is differcult to say, ride the oboe track without affect the others. And when I mute the oboe track when it is not playing, I'm afraid that I may affect the overall balance of the orch ( I'm thinking about the image of the orch ). Maybe I should use more of the room mic but the room mics don't sound very good and for some reason the obos just pierced through the orch and really stand out. most frustrating.

Then it isn't miked properly for the style of session. Of course you are going to get some bleed, but it shouldn't preclude you being able to make sensible adjustments for things like important solo's.

How do you get around this problem?

Use the right mic's and good mic technique.

BTW, I am just the composer, not the engineer. But after the recording I'd like to take the files home and do the mixing myself in 5.1.

If you are a pro and you want to get good pro results, stomp up the cash for a good professional engineer, get him to mix it, even if you sit there and tell him "ore this, less that". It's not just about knowing what balance you want to achieve, it's about knowing how best to achieve that. A good engineer will take your comments and make the necessary changes to get you what you want and at the same time avoid problems.

If there is budget to hire reasonable players, the cost of a decent engineer isn't going to blow your budget, IMHO I would sooner lose a couple of players from the string section as a good engineer will get you more sound from less players than a bad engineer with a 50 piece string section.

Regards


Roland

[fatcatmusic]

Thanks Roland for the advice. But just for my information, how much is a scoring session, say in London, for 30 min. and 15 min. of recorded music, 50 string players? Including studio ( a decent one, don't think I can afford Abbey Road ) and engineer? And how much for a mixing session?

I also hope that I can get a good engineer to do the mix but very often, well it is always, that after the recording the movie producers want changes or re-edit some scenes so I need to go back to the original files for re-editing or remixing. That's why it would be best if everything is handled in my studio, to avoid all the running around and save some time.

I know the pound is really high at the moment so recording in London may not be feasible for me; actually is there somewhere in Eastern Europe that can povide good quality orch. recording for soundtracks?

[klaukholm]

I can get you very good prices on good orchestras in scandinavia.
There are only a few slots left for this season, but it would be worth it for you to check us out.
I can send you some samples if you want.
We have a three day 65-70 player session the first week in september and you are welcome to drop in on us to see if it is for you. (30 minutes from copenhagen airport)

[matthewd]

Lots of people use Prague for soundtracks - the orchestral contractor is James Fitzpatrick who runs a company called Tadlow Music. The main difference in recording soundtracks as far as I can see is that they tend to mic up every desk of strings and it is quite common to record three separate passes of strings, woodwind and brass - or possibly a fourth for percussion and a fifth time if choir involved. I should add that the room mics feature in all passes. But equally I have seen it done all at the same time, particularly in Prague where the reason for being there is usually budget in the first place.

Matt

[fatcatmusic]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

I can get you very good prices on good orchestras in scandinavia.
There are only a few slots left for this season, but it would be worth it for you to check us out.
I can send you some samples if you want.
We have a three day 65-70 player session the first week in september and you are welcome to drop in on us to see if it is for you. (30 minutes from copenhagen airport)

Thanks Kjetil, PM sent to you.

[fatcatmusic]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

I can get you very good prices on good orchestras in scandinavia.
There are only a few slots left for this season, but it would be worth it for you to check us out.
I can send you some samples if you want.
We have a three day 65-70 player session the first week in september and you are welcome to drop in on us to see if it is for you. (30 minutes from copenhagen airport)

Originally Posted by matthewd

Lots of people use Prague for soundtracks - the orchestral contractor is James Fitzpatrick who runs a company called Tadlow Music. The main difference in recording soundtracks as far as I can see is that they tend to mic up every desk of strings and it is quite common to record three separate passes of strings, woodwind and brass - or possibly a fourth for percussion and a fifth time if choir involved. I should add that the room mics feature in all passes. But equally I have seen it done all at the same time, particularly in Prague where the reason for being there is usually budget in the first place.

Matt

Hi Matt, thanks for the info, will certainly look into that. I have some experience recording in Czech, though not with James Fitzpatrick. I heard that there are some good orch in Hungary as well. Wonder how their quality is.

Overdub is good but you have to have a lot of time for that, so instead of recording 15 min. of music in half day, you need a full day. The advantage would be clean and more controllable sound.

[3rd&4thT]

For centuries, the Czechs traditionally provided musicians for much of Central Europe. There's an amazing number of Czech last names in the Vienna Philharmonic, one of the world's finest.

By contrast with the Viennese, the Czech orchestral sound tends to be on the lean side. But if there's any problem, I would look first for room and recording faults - the musicians are top rank. Don't forget Slovakia next door. Bratislava has a good orchestra and a good room.

Poland and Hungary are also good and experienced. Jerry Goldsmith recorded a number of scores in Budapest. Some folks are using Moscow these days.

The Ukrainian orchestras are OK, but I've yet to hear good engineering - it may be there somewhere, but what's on CD can sound mighty clumsy. Zagreb or Sofia might be worth checking out, but I don't think Bucharest would be worth the adventure.

Latvia is close to collapse. Maybe you can get a good deal in Riga.

During musicians' strikes, American TV always used to run to Mexico, but the string playing can be questionable.

It's a big, wide, wonderful world out there.

Good luck,
3rd&4thT

[Roland]

It's all a question of diminishing returns. American orchestras are good, but expensive. Eastern European orchestras are cheap (but the prices have gone up), but take more time to get the job done. British orchestras are mid priced, but they will nail it first take most of the time. In the end when you calculate the "real" costs the differences are not always what you would expect.

Regards



Roland

[3rd&4thT]

Originally Posted by Roland

It's all a question of diminishing returns. American orchestras are good, but expensive. Eastern European orchestras are cheap (but the prices have gone up), but take more time to get the job done. British orchestras are mid priced, but they will nail it first take most of the time. In the end when you calculate the "real" costs the differences are not always what you would expect.

Regards
Roland

I'm sure that's entirely true: the UK has been a recording center for the world for the last 50 years.

However, if you choose a country with active film and television industries, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and Russia all have orchestras and studios that should be used to the special demands of soundtracks.

The other places mentioned may be more like the Wild East.

Best,
3rd&4thT

[bove]

Originally Posted by fatcatmusic

Thanks Roland for the advice. But just for my information, how much is a scoring session, say in London, for 30 min. and 15 min. of recorded music, 50 string players? Including studio ( a decent one, don't think I can afford Abbey Road ) and engineer? And how much for a mixing session?

How big is the budget for your movie? Is it a big budget blockbuster?

If not, and this is a "Low-Budget" or "Indie" film with less than a $12Million total budget, your prices in New York would be very reasonable (or a bit more for $12-40M budget). Please PM me, and I can provide you with more info.

[fatcatmusic]

Originally Posted by bove

How big is the budget for your movie? Is it a big budget blockbuster?

If not, and this is a "Low-Budget" or "Indie" film with less than a $12Million total budget, your prices in New York would be very reasonable (or a bit more for $12-40M budget). Please PM me, and I can provide you with more info.

PM sent.