Blm/pz decca tree

boojum · 13th August 2009

I have to record a chorale with a pretty strong no sight line obstructions rule. I have been able to get away with spaced array (A_B) and a Jecklin (dicey that time) and think that BLM's might be the answer. So, can I lay them out on the floor six feet apart with a middle mic on the 6' center line and 3' forward. You furriners, convert to 2 meters and 1 meter. LOL

Any experience you guys may have had with BLM/PZ's on this will be gladly received.

pkautzsch · 18th August 2009

First row will block sound from the back rows. So the near/far perspective will be more exaggerated than with a non-BLM setup.
You'll be quite close to conductor's (and maybe also singers') feet. If they move a lot, you're in for a lot of rustling.
PZMs have no HF lift for direct sound compared to reverb. So you'll get more and brighter reverb.

fifthcircle · 18th August 2009

Not a huge fan of floor micing choruses... You'll get a great pickup on your first row, but not much else.

Can you hang? How about small mics on active stands (ie Schoeps, Sennheiser, DPA or similar)? Is there a way to talk to the group about the whole sightline issue? When I explain to my clients about such restrictions, they will usually come around to allow stands where needed. Time to dust off the "recordings that look good or sound good" speech.

--Ben

boojum · 19th August 2009

Guys, thanks! I see your point that I will get the first row just fine, and not much else. I can use a high-pass to get the footfalls out. But as it has been tried and found wanting I do not have to push it. I will give it a shot in rehearsal, of course. "Is this paint really wet?" LOL

The problem is the stage manager. The chorale and the director are very supportive of any array I have tried, even a Jecklin! A discreet Decca on a discreet carbon fiber stand or one hanging could do it. Hanging is a nosebleed because the stage manager, again, whines about lowering the front light bar. It is manual and the poor baby is unwilling to work other than complain. And I am unsure how protected the 4061's would be near rampant AC feeding the lights on the bar.

So, after I experiment and find that the guys on GS know their stuff, I will put up a whispy carbon fiber Decca with the famous black match heads on their ends. Hopefully this will do the deal.

Thank you for your help and guidance. This board is the mother load for me.

hbphotoav · 19th August 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by boojum

...
The problem is the stage manager. The chorale and the director are very supportive of any array I have tried, even a Jecklin! A discreet Decca on a discreet carbon fiber stand or one hanging could do it. Hanging is a nosebleed because the stage manager, again, whines about lowering the front light bar. It is manual and the poor baby is unwilling to work other than complain. And I am unsure how protected the 4061's would be near rampant AC feeding the lights on the bar.
...

If you are allowed one stand, try the lightest weight, longest-armed boom stand you can get. that should get you 6-6.5'. Stop by Home Depot and pick up a couple of 1/8" brass rods ($5 or so, IIRC). Gaff one to the top 6" of the mic stand, and rig the other in a cross near the top with some lightweight wire (or solder, or epoxy if you're so inclined) and a bit more gaff. Trim it to the AB spread you want (15cm-1m, basically), use a bit of gaff to mount the DPAs, and, unless the group is on a tall stage or platform (or the conductor is 7' tall) you should be good to go, with the bar up at 8.5-9' (2.7m or so). For a sample, listen to my choral clip on the "DPA 4061 On Orchestra" thread. Also, pics of the (non-sightline infringing) brass rod.

The other way would be to do a spaced pair on two lightweight black light stands (thinking of the older 9'/3m Smith-Victors here... the top stage is about 1/4"OD). Gaff the DPA about 2" straight up off the stand and spike it the rest of the way down and you'll have people asking "where's the mic?"

Petrus · 19th August 2009

It is possible to make a 12 foot "invisible" stand from carbon fiber. I made one with 8 and 6 mm tubes, height adjustement simply with a silicon rubber O-ring. Epoxy-glued removable T-bar on top which takes any reasonable length 6 mm tubes as an AB bar. Seal all tube end sawcuts with epoxy as otherwise needle sharp carbon fibres hurt! Black gaffer tape to secure the joints, black plywood pedestal with black Wrage handbell weight as a base. Costs almost nothing.

DIY ONNO mic stand with carbon fiber

fifthcircle · 19th August 2009

If the performers don't mind and it is the stage manager that does, is there anything you can do to get your performers to change his mind. Obviously I don't know the situation at this hall, but the SM should be doing everything possible to make the performance go as well as possible. That means working with the person who is recording the show. Either he hops on the rail, grabs a lift or lets you put up stands. You can't have it all ways- refusing to help hang, but also refusing to have stands on stage.

When I hang from lighting rails, I'll fix one end off to the bar and a 2nd line somewhere in the hall (to allow for front to back positioning). If you are concerned about lighting cable, you have a couple choices. Run pulleys that hang below the bar to keep the cables away from the lights. Use star quad cable (or similar) that has good resistance to interference. or just deal. You could also run your pull lines along the bar and run mic cable somewhere in the house (although that means a much longer cable run).

There are options, but in the end, you need to get the performers on your side to deal with such a pain at the SM position.

--Ben

boojum · 20th August 2009

I have no trouble with the chorale. And the director adores me as I deliver her good recordings and am easy to work with. The SM is a prissy little twerp who is used to running the show as he wishes. And his wishes get more stringent with each show. He has lost every round so far, but I would like to be able to put up something which is minimally intrusive. It would be useful later, calm the twit SM, and cause peace throughout the kingdom. I live in a small and isolated town. I find it easier to get along with as many folks as I can than try to court them later.

Using Petrus' stand seems a good way to go. Sisu, baby! I can make the Decca pieces out of tiny carbon fiber rod which would weigh next to nothing. The 4061's weigh in about the same. I think this is the better option. I have a source for carbon fiber rod and will follow the excellent instructions from Petrus to assemble it. The same fabricated clamp head that would normally hold a standard 30cm AB array would work to hold the Decca array, I am hoping, because of its minimal mass.

You guys make it possible for me to look good, and smart, too.

Thank you!

13th August 2009	#1
boojum Lives for gear Joined: May 2007 Location: Astoria, OR, US&A Posts: 2,308 Thread Starter 1 Review written	Blm/pz decca tree I have to record a chorale with a pretty strong no sight line obstructions rule. I have been able to get away with spaced array (A_B) and a Jecklin (dicey that time) and think that BLM's might be the answer. So, can I lay them out on the floor six feet apart with a middle mic on the 6' center line and 3' forward. You furriners, convert to 2 meters and 1 meter. LOL Any experience you guys may have had with BLM/PZ's on this will be gladly received. __________________ Nov schmoz ka pop.

18th August 2009	#2
pkautzsch Lives for gear Joined: Feb 2006 Location: Munich, Germany Posts: 1,521	First row will block sound from the back rows. So the near/far perspective will be more exaggerated than with a non-BLM setup. You'll be quite close to conductor's (and maybe also singers') feet. If they move a lot, you're in for a lot of rustling. PZMs have no HF lift for direct sound compared to reverb. So you'll get more and brighter reverb. __________________ Microphones always make me sound louder and better! -- Guitar Girl

18th August 2009	#3
fifthcircle Lives for gear Joined: Apr 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,323	Not a huge fan of floor micing choruses... You'll get a great pickup on your first row, but not much else. Can you hang? How about small mics on active stands (ie Schoeps, Sennheiser, DPA or similar)? Is there a way to talk to the group about the whole sightline issue? When I explain to my clients about such restrictions, they will usually come around to allow stands where needed. Time to dust off the "recordings that look good or sound good" speech. --Ben __________________ Benjamin Maas Fifth Circle Audio Long Beach, CA http://www.fifthcircle.com

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19th August 2009	#4
boojum Lives for gear Joined: May 2007 Location: Astoria, OR, US&A Posts: 2,308 Thread Starter 1 Review written	Guys, thanks! I see your point that I will get the first row just fine, and not much else. I can use a high-pass to get the footfalls out. But as it has been tried and found wanting I do not have to push it. I will give it a shot in rehearsal, of course. "Is this paint really wet?" LOL The problem is the stage manager. The chorale and the director are very supportive of any array I have tried, even a Jecklin! A discreet Decca on a discreet carbon fiber stand or one hanging could do it. Hanging is a nosebleed because the stage manager, again, whines about lowering the front light bar. It is manual and the poor baby is unwilling to work other than complain. And I am unsure how protected the 4061's would be near rampant AC feeding the lights on the bar. So, after I experiment and find that the guys on GS know their stuff, I will put up a whispy carbon fiber Decca with the famous black match heads on their ends. Hopefully this will do the deal. Thank you for your help and guidance. This board is the mother load for me.

19th August 2009	#6
Petrus Lives for gear Joined: Oct 2008 Location: Espoo Finland Posts: 868	It is possible to make a 12 foot "invisible" stand from carbon fiber. I made one with 8 and 6 mm tubes, height adjustement simply with a silicon rubber O-ring. Epoxy-glued removable T-bar on top which takes any reasonable length 6 mm tubes as an AB bar. Seal all tube end sawcuts with epoxy as otherwise needle sharp carbon fibres hurt! Black gaffer tape to secure the joints, black plywood pedestal with black Wrage handbell weight as a base. Costs almost nothing. DIY ONNO mic stand with carbon fiber

20th August 2009	#8
boojum Lives for gear Joined: May 2007 Location: Astoria, OR, US&A Posts: 2,308 Thread Starter 1 Review written	I have no trouble with the chorale. And the director adores me as I deliver her good recordings and am easy to work with. The SM is a prissy little twerp who is used to running the show as he wishes. And his wishes get more stringent with each show. He has lost every round so far, but I would like to be able to put up something which is minimally intrusive. It would be useful later, calm the twit SM, and cause peace throughout the kingdom. I live in a small and isolated town. I find it easier to get along with as many folks as I can than try to court them later. Using Petrus' stand seems a good way to go. Sisu, baby! I can make the Decca pieces out of tiny carbon fiber rod which would weigh next to nothing. The 4061's weigh in about the same. I think this is the better option. I have a source for carbon fiber rod and will follow the excellent instructions from Petrus to assemble it. The same fabricated clamp head that would normally hold a standard 30cm AB array would work to hold the Decca array, I am hoping, because of its minimal mass. You guys make it possible for me to look good, and smart, too. Thank you!