Average snake length required for smaller live venues?

[grrrayson]

I'm working on putting together my own 16-channel mobile recording rig because I keep getting requests to record live shows cost-efficiently.

What's a safe snake length to go with? My educated guess is 150' at this point, but you all know much better than I would. I'm sure in the worst-case scenario when you get stuck next to the stage you don't need much, but in some cases where you can set up speakers in a weird back room far away it would be worth it. What length would be superfluous for smaller venues considering sonics, cost, and weight?

The setting I'm considering are places in Chicago like Martyr's or the Green Mill for those of you familiar with the area. Capacity in the lower hundreds–nothing big.

Thanks in advance for shared expertise and general audio forum awesomeness.


Grayson

[CAMGRec]

150' could be overkill? Especially for smaller venues?

I suppose if you've got room in your rig for a 150' of 16 channel snake cable and don't mind lugging it around, it makes sense.

I've done a fair amount of mobile gigs in smaller rooms and never needed more than 75'. I own a 50' snake myself (the 75' was borrowed).

[bishopthomas]

Are you doing multipin? If so, short (100') pieces are nice because you can use one or combine them easily for longer runs. If you're just talking box to fanout then I would go with nothing shorter than 150'. 200 would be better. EWI makes a decent 200' snake on a reel. Also having some 50's and 75's around makes it easier to carry, but it's easier to keep the extra coiled than it is to add more (if you have it) or move record world closer to the stage.

[GZsound]

What is a "smaller' venue?

I would suggest statting with that question and then deciding on how long the snake should be.

I would think a hundred foot snake would be more than adequate for a "smaller' venue, but of course, one guy's small venue is another guys 2,000 seat theatre.

[grrrayson]

Originally Posted by GZsound

What is a "smaller' venue?

I would suggest statting with that question and then deciding on how long the snake should be.

I would think a hundred foot snake would be more than adequate for a "smaller' venue, but of course, one guy's small venue is another guys 2,000 seat theatre.

I did specify venues with capacities in the lower hundreds and even gave a couple of local examples. What more info do you need? I don't know if it's warranted to get too specific because we'd want a mobile rig like this to be versatile, right? To start with, think of places with a capacity for ±200 people.

Originally Posted by CAMGRec

150' could be overkill? Especially for smaller venues?

I've done a fair amount of mobile gigs in smaller rooms and never needed more than 75'. I own a 50' snake myself (the 75' was borrowed).

I really don't know; that's why I asked. However, where are you going with those 75 or 50 feet? The space next to the second floor "green room"? The basement, which is down the staircase through the door back behind the bar? That weird empty space through that one door back by the kitchen?

Perhaps!

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

Are you doing multipin? If so, short (100') pieces are nice because you can use one or combine them easily for longer runs. If you're just talking box to fanout then I would go with nothing shorter than 150'. 200 would be better. EWI makes a decent 200' snake on a reel. Also having some 50's and 75's around makes it easier to carry, but it's easier to keep the extra coiled than it is to add more (if you have it) or move record world closer to the stage.

You bring up a really interesting point which I appreciate. I've thought about it, but it seems overkill for this kind of small stuff. Do you use such a modular system yourself? Some questions:

• Does using multiple connectors like that in the middle of a snake significantly increase susceptibility to noise?
• What kind of connectors are best for this? DB25 is nearly too fragile to sit in the back of rack as it is. Also, I've had to reseat ELCOs in a studio setting many times.
• How much sonic difference do you think an extra 100' makes?


You all are awesome–more suggestions always appreciated!

Regards,

Grayson

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by grrrayson

You bring up a really interesting point which I appreciate. I've thought about it, but it seems overkill for this kind of small stuff. Do you use such a modular system yourself? Some questions:

• Does using multiple connectors like that in the middle of a snake significantly increase susceptibility to noise?
• What kind of connectors are best for this? DB25 is nearly too fragile to sit in the back of rack as it is. Also, I've had to reseat ELCOs in a studio setting many times.
• How much sonic difference do you think an extra 100' makes?

I am between rigs right now, but the one I am building will be based around a fiber snake for medium to long runs. The splitter will be Elco outs so for short distances where the recorders are on stage I will just go Elco to the preamp rack then ADAT out from there.

Theoretically, every connection impacts noise, but it is highly doubtful that you will hear any impact in the sound. The standard in high channel count multipins is Whirlwind's W4 Mass connector, but they're a little pricey. You're right about DB25's, stay far away from them. I like Elco's for under 30 channels. As long as you're careful they should mate well and hold up for years. I've actually had more problems with bent pins on a W4 than with Elco connectors. As far as the length of cable, don't sweat it too much. It bothers me to see people worried about the length of the cable run when they should be focused on buying quality gear and learning where to point microphones (not that you're one of these people, only saying there are more important things to worry about than 100' of copper).

[grrrayson]

No offense taken! I completely agree with you on the hierarchy of concerns.

I really do like the modular idea. I might go ELCO when expanding in the future. Are ELCOs a pain to solder?

Thanks again.

Grayson

[LX3]

+1 for the two-section concept. Make a short and a long and you have three different options for total length.

Snakes take a beating when they're continually deployed, packed, and redeployed. I'd go for nothing less than Veam or Mass. Expensive, and as with any multipin, there's an art to building them (properly), but take it from me, you will end up cutting off any lesser connector in a year's time and replacing it with a Veam anyway... So it's cheaper and more time efficient to do things right in the first place.

In my experience anyhow. I know it's hard to justify the cost when you're just getting going, but in two years time you'll be glad you went the extra distance.

In fact, you'll probably be glad about it much sooner than that.

Last thing I'd say is don't rush it. Versatile snake systems take some planning. They're expensive and time-consuming to make, so not something you want to re-do if you change your mind after you've built it. Very difficult to make a snake 10 feet longer after you've cut it.

Have fun with it though. I love it, I think about snake systems far more than is good for me.

[Murton]

Originally Posted by LX3

+1 for the two-section concept. Make a short and a long and you have three different options for total length.

Snakes take a beating when they're continually deployed, packed, and redeployed. I'd go for nothing less than Veam or Mass. Expensive, and as with any multipin, there's an art to building them (properly), but take it from me, you will end up cutting off any lesser connector in a year's time and replacing it with a Veam anyway... So it's cheaper and more time efficient to do things right in the first place.

In my experience anyhow. I know it's hard to justify the cost when you're just getting going, but in two years time you'll be glad you went the extra distance.

In fact, you'll probably be glad about it much sooner than that.

Last thing I'd say is don't rush it. Versatile snake systems take some planning. They're expensive and time-consuming to make, so not something you want to re-do if you change your mind after you've built it. Very difficult to make a snake 10 feet longer after you've cut it.

Have fun with it though. I love it, I think about snake systems far more than is good for me.

To summarise this post:

"A poor man buys twice, a smart man pays more to buy once but less than buying twice."

Also, building a snake yourself i.e. buying bulk cable and connectors and soldering yourself is also a lot cheaper than purchasing custom made orpre-built but only if your soldering skills are up to the challenege and a custom job can do it cheaper due to bulk distribution deals + Labour adding up to less than retail bulk price = your own labour.

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by grrrayson

I really do like the modular idea. I might go ELCO when expanding in the future. Are ELCOs a pain to solder?

Elcos are very simple to make because there is no soldering involved. You will have to invest a little bit in the tools (crimp and extraction), but it's well worth it. Typically Elco cables are male (with the hood) and the panel mount is female. This means that you would have to either deviate from the norm or build Elco turnarounds.

[grrrayson]

I always appreciate concept, but I still want numbers, which is what I was primarily asking for here.

So:

• If I go with one length, how long should it be?
• If I go with multiple lengths, how long should they be?

Perhaps a poll would be in order.

For you modular guys: what do you actually use yourself? Literally, what lengths are your personal rigs set up for?

Thanks again, All.

[bishopthomas]

Make an informed decision for yourself, based on your own requirements. Your budget is a factor here too; I have yet to see how much you want to spend. Okay, since you HAVE to have hard numbers do this: For one length buy a 200' snake. For multpinned pieces get a 25', 50', and 2 100' lengths. All should be Whirlwind W4 56 channel snakes. This is a system you can grow into and can cross rent if you need longer lengths. Be prepared to spend $10,000 on this snake and get every cent of what you pay for.

[grrrayson]

That last post of mine certainly wasn't directed at you, bishop–thank you though for the detailed (and slightly sarcastic) response again, though. =)

There are already a couple of larger mobile recording companies in the area–I'm getting requests to cater to smaller projects in a mid-range budget. 16 channels and probably never more than 24. I have a nice soldering iron and make my own cables and whatnot already; I don't mind spending a grand or so on parts. I could spend more than that if need be, but if I spend too much more than that, I'd have to pass that cost on to clients and at some point that would defeat the goal of meeting mid-range budget guidelines. I need to bill $500 or so rather than $1000.

I was just wondering how much distance you guys have to cover in practice in small to mid-size music clubs.

As it stands, it looks like ≥150-200 is the safe minimum with alternate options preferable.

More experiences always appreciated.

Grayson

[David.H]

I have been recording gigs for a long time now, some years ago I made up a 75 meter snake and have not looked back. I have recorded in Norwich Cathedral England and only just made it, however nowhere else have I had a problem of running out of snake cable. In any event I also have Starquad cables available I could extend the snake. Anything over 100 meters seems a bit over the top to me. I usually find a short way round most venues to run cables, preferably away from Jo public. I usually nearly always have cable left on the drum.

[ljudatervinning]

I use a 40m snake without cable drum. That snake is not easy to work with! 40-45m is about as long as I would go.
In fact, I am very intrigued by MADI and similar concepts. My next multi will definitely be MADI, ethernet or similar.

[AllThingsAudio]

I've done a bunch of live recording gigs in smaller venues and have never had a problem with 100' being too short. That includes a number of over this and round that and down these stairs, etc, etc, etc. My $0.02

[hbphotoav]

I come at this from live sound, so I have a bunch of production snakes... a 150' (45m) 16x4 with XLR returns; a 100' (33m) 30x10 (all XLR); a couple of 100' 16x4 with TRS returns (as yet not modified); a 100' 8x4 (XLRs) and a pair of 25' (7m) 8 channel stage snakes (no returns). All are Rapco or Whirlwind. The one that sees the most use in my recording rig is the 100' 8x4, as I do mainly live events transcription, and no tracking, where returns would be necessary. I throw the two 8-banger stage boxes into the roller case so I can extend if necessary... however, since 4 channels is my usual feed, I often run just a pair of homemade 200' (65m) stereo XLR cables. Much lighter, and, with proper care, no worries as yet (8 years) for reliability. It's Belden 2-pair (22 gauge) with 100% foil shield and a drain, in a plenum-rated lightweight PVC jacket. Seems like 500' was $125.00 or so.

Main thing to look for in a commercial snake: be sure the connectors are first-line Neutrik or Switchcraft, and have SOLDERED leads in the fan and stage box. Nothing worse than punching out a bunch of riveted cheap-o press-on connectors so as to repair shorts/opens (often) or replace them with standard solder cup connectors.