Portable surround recording equipment?

[nurfen]

Me and my friend want to record live surround audio on the street. We want to capture the surroundings and the music. We have to be able to walk around with the gear, so there has to be some way to use a battery (even car batteries are fine, lol).

How should we do this? We're gonna use a "semipro" cam with two XLR inputs, which of course is not enough for surround.

What other gear do we need?
Are there any good surround microphones out there for less than $1000?
What type of recorder should we use for this?

I would really appreciate any answers, please write your thoughts. Thank you!

[John Willett]

I don't know of any surround mics at all under $1,000.

The mic. you probably need is the new DPA 5100 Mobile Surround Microphone - this sells for about £2,000 in the UK.

For a recorder you will need something like the NAGRA VI or the Sound Devices 788T - both these recorders have timecode.

[DrDeltaM]

Other affordable surround mic option is the Soundfield SPS200. You only need to be able to record 4 tracks for it. Decoding to surround format of choice is done with the included SurroundZone plugin.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by DrDeltaM

Other affordable surround mic option is the Soundfield SPS200. You only need to be able to record 4 tracks for it. Decoding to surround format of choice is done with the included SurroundZone plugin.

Side-fire I think - about £1,500 in the UK - A-format so needs to be decoded in the DAW with the supplied software (not sure how you monitor in the field and side-fare can be awkward to manipulate in a basket windshield (but it *should* fit into a Rycote)). And, yes - you only need 4-channels and could get away with an Edirol R-44 if money is tight (but the R-44 does not have timecode, I think; you wou;d need the R-04 Pro minimum for that).

[marty lester]

Originally Posted by nurfen

Me and my friend want to record live surround audio on the street. We want to capture the surroundings and the music. We have to be able to walk around with the gear, so there has to be some way to use a battery (even car batteries are fine, lol).

How should we do this? We're gonna use a "semipro" cam with two XLR inputs, which of course is not enough for surround.

What other gear do we need?
Are there any good surround microphones out there for less than $1000?
What type of recorder should we use for this?

I would really appreciate any answers, please write your thoughts. Thank you!

slam-dunk:

: : H O L O P H O N E : :

marty.

[ghellquist]

Hmm.

If we start a bit lower at the "hobbyist" sida of things instead of at the pro side.

Mics:
You could possibly run just about any four cardiod mics. Or perhaps two cardiods and one figure 8 (do a google on Schopes Double MS to see how it works). The problem is probably to get a contraption that can be carried and that protects the mics from wind induced noise. It does not take very much wind to influence a naked cardioid mic, often enough to walk briskly. You could possibly build a wood frame or even simply fasten the mics on the shoulders and backs of a person.

Recorder:
Time code is of course a necessity if you run a hollywood type production. For the rest of us though, a simple clapperboard gets the job done. The only use for time code after all is to synchronize the start of the video with the start of the sound (or vice versa). In a production not having hundreds of short video clips this can be done manually instead.
Clapperboard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But what you do need is a way to record four (or possible three channels) of sound synched together. In the budget segment I know of the Edirol R44 that can do this. And you could possibly get the Zoom H4N to record four channels as well, two inbuilt mics + two external. Sadly though, you sort of get what you pay for in noise levels and accuracy. But good enough is good enough depending on your requirements.

Another alternative would be the Sound Device 744T. You should be able to rent it, very popular machine among the video people. Two built in preamps and add two more and you get four channels (rent as example a Sound Device Mixpre). Going a bit up in level, still renting, a package could contain a SD 442 mixer feeding both a 744T and the cameras mic input to get a guide track there. Add wireless transmission to the cameras for the guide track and they can roam freely from the sound recordist. By the way, the 744T does have time code but it adds a bit of extra hassle to jam the codes on a recorder and two video cameras, so maybe simply stay out of that.

You will of course need a program or a few in your computer that allows you to manípulate sound together with video. No ideas from me here though as I never do video. I could possibly bet that when doing longer shots you will want to time-stretch the audio to fit with the video. Many but not all programs allows you to do this. Editing video does take a heavy toll from the computer so it has to have some power, guess you already now that.

Next problem is how you are going to distribute the result. Burning DVD-s with surround sound is not quite as easy as simply posting your mono stuff on youtube. You probably know more about this than I do.

Gunnar

[nurfen]

Originally Posted by John Willett

I don't know of any surround mics at all under $1,000.

The mic. you probably need is the new DPA 5100 Mobile Surround Microphone - this sells for about £2,000 in the UK.

For a recorder you will need something like the NAGRA VI or the Sound Devices 788T - both these recorders have timecode.

Thanks for the reply! Unfortunately that's a little bit too expensive. We have a budget of $3000 maximum, including the camera. (We just started the production company, and we have no income from this company yet, so this will be our own saved money.)

Originally Posted by DrDeltaM

Other affordable surround mic option is the Soundfield SPS200. You only need to be able to record 4 tracks for it. Decoding to surround format of choice is done with the included SurroundZone plugin.

Unfortunately that microphone is a bit too expensive, too, but thanks for the reply.

Originally Posted by John Willett

Side-fire I think - about £1,500 in the UK - A-format so needs to be decoded in the DAW with the supplied software (not sure how you monitor in the field and side-fare can be awkward to manipulate in a basket windshield (but it *should* fit into a Rycote)). And, yes - you only need 4-channels and could get away with an Edirol R-44 if money is tight (but the R-44 does not have timecode, I think; you wou;d need the R-04 Pro minimum for that).

Originally Posted by marty lester

slam-dunk:

: : H O L O P H O N E : :

marty.

That looks extremely good, but I cannot find anywhere to buy the microphones. I've sent them an email, and I hope they'll get back to me asap.

Originally Posted by ghellquist

Hmm.

If we start a bit lower at the "hobbyist" sida of things instead of at the pro side.

Mics:
You could possibly run just about any four cardiod mics. Or perhaps two cardiods and one figure 8 (do a google on Schopes Double MS to see how it works). The problem is probably to get a contraption that can be carried and that protects the mics from wind induced noise. It does not take very much wind to influence a naked cardioid mic, often enough to walk briskly. You could possibly build a wood frame or even simply fasten the mics on the shoulders and backs of a person.

Recorder:
Time code is of course a necessity if you run a hollywood type production. For the rest of us though, a simple clapperboard gets the job done. The only use for time code after all is to synchronize the start of the video with the start of the sound (or vice versa). In a production not having hundreds of short video clips this can be done manually instead.
Clapperboard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But what you do need is a way to record four (or possible three channels) of sound synched together. In the budget segment I know of the Edirol R44 that can do this. And you could possibly get the Zoom H4N to record four channels as well, two inbuilt mics + two external. Sadly though, you sort of get what you pay for in noise levels and accuracy. But good enough is good enough depending on your requirements.

Another alternative would be the Sound Device 744T. You should be able to rent it, very popular machine among the video people. Two built in preamps and add two more and you get four channels (rent as example a Sound Device Mixpre). Going a bit up in level, still renting, a package could contain a SD 442 mixer feeding both a 744T and the cameras mic input to get a guide track there. Add wireless transmission to the cameras for the guide track and they can roam freely from the sound recordist. By the way, the 744T does have time code but it adds a bit of extra hassle to jam the codes on a recorder and two video cameras, so maybe simply stay out of that.

You will of course need a program or a few in your computer that allows you to manípulate sound together with video. No ideas from me here though as I never do video. I could possibly bet that when doing longer shots you will want to time-stretch the audio to fit with the video. Many but not all programs allows you to do this. Editing video does take a heavy toll from the computer so it has to have some power, guess you already now that.

Next problem is how you are going to distribute the result. Burning DVD-s with surround sound is not quite as easy as simply posting your mono stuff on youtube. You probably know more about this than I do.

Gunnar

The easiest thing would be to buy a "real" surround microphone, since we're thinking of doing _many_ recordings, while walking around (!), and we'd like a quick setup. I think it's just too hard to get four cardoid microphones to stay in place while moving.

Timecode is not necessary, we're talking 5-10 minute clips which we can sync manually if they're out of sync. The software we've purchased is Logic Studio and Final Cut Studio.


Thank you so much for all your replies, every word is of use for us since we don't know anything at all about this yet. We're doing a _lot_ of research, trying to find out which methods are best. Please keep replying with your ideas. Thank you!

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by nurfen

Thanks for the reply! Unfortunately that's a little bit too expensive. We have a budget of $3000 maximum, including the camera.

I think your budget is far far too low for what you want to do.

You can hardly get a camera for that, let alone all the sound gear.

You could probably get a semi-pro system in stereo for that budget, though.

Also - your 5.1 monitoring system when you edit it is likely to blow that budget, and more....

[nurfen]

Originally Posted by John Willett

I think your budget is far far too low for what you want to do.

You can hardly get a camera for that, let alone all the sound gear.

You could probably get a semi-pro system in stereo for that budget, though.

Also - your 5.1 monitoring system when you edit it is likely to blow that budget, and more....

Hi there! Thanks for your reply, although we want to do this on the _lowest possible_ budget - we do not need an expensive camera, the best microphones or the best monitoring system.

We want to do this with the cheapest second hand "semipro" hdv camera we can find, picture quality doesn't really matter in the end, but we DO want to offer something that's not offered on the market as of now, and 5.1 sound is a (small) part of that. We're still hoping that it's possible in some way, but if it really isn't, at least we'll know for sure... and focus on stereo.

Right now, our best bet is the Holophone PortaMic, but they haven't responded to my email yet.

We really appreciate all the answers. Please keep them coming!

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by nurfen

Hi there! Thanks for your reply, although we want to do this on the _lowest possible_ budget - we do not need an expensive camera, the best microphones or the best monitoring system.

We want to do this with the cheapest second hand "semipro" hdv camera we can find, picture quality doesn't really matter in the end, but we DO want to offer something that's not offered on the market as of now, and 5.1 sound is a (small) part of that. We're still hoping that it's possible in some way, but if it really isn't, at least we'll know for sure... and focus on stereo.

Right now, our best bet is the Holophone PortaMic, but they haven't responded to my email yet.

We really appreciate all the answers. Please keep them coming!

The problem you have with 5.1 surround is that you need a 6-channel recorder to record it all on - that's something like the Nagra VI or SD 788T.

I can't think of any inexpensive recorders.

The Edirol R-44 is a very affordable 4-track, but this is not enough tracks. You *can* link two together to get 8 tracks, but they do not start recording at the same time; so you will need a way to line up the tracks in the DAW when you edit - and - you are carrying around two recorders linked together.

The other thing you need to consider is what people will pay you to do the job - come with the right equipment and do a good job and people will pay for your service - turn up with cheapo stuff that is awkward to drive and you are unlikely to get the clients you want.

I still think your best bet is the SD 788T with a Holophone, or DPA.

I really don't know of a cheaper portable 6 or 8 track machine on the market,

[Denis Goekdag]

Get a core sound tetramic .... like the soundfield but under USD 1k. The advantage to ambisonic mics is that you can do with 4 channels of recording....enter R-44.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Denis Goekdag

Get a core sound tetramic .... like the soundfield but under USD 1k. The advantage to ambisonic mics is that you can do with 4 channels of recording....enter R-44.

OK - this will work - side-fire again, though.


You *may* get away with using a Rycote Baby Ball gag and In-Vision mount on the fish-pole; but take care with orientation so you know where the front is.

[Denis Goekdag]

You can mount the tetramic like you would a normal mic and just compensate for that in the decoding; the XYZW format has vertical representation.

It IS good advice to record a signal from a known direction so you have a reference on decoding later. Maybe tap each capsule with a finger once on the first take or something.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Denis Goekdag

You can mount the tetramic like you would a normal mic and just compensate for that in the decoding; the XYZW format has vertical representation.

It IS good advice to record a signal from a known direction so you have a reference on decoding later. Maybe tap each capsule with a finger once on the first take or something.

That *is* good news - so you could easily mount it in a standard Rycote basket windshield or S-series - and - once you have worked out the orientation, it would be fine.

I presume, then, that the same would be true of the Soundfield.

[Denis Goekdag]

Yes; there is actually a control labeled "end-fire" in the surroundzone plug-in by soundfield for exactly this purpose.

[Audiop]

On the cheap I can think of only one solution. A laptop, some integrated interfaces with DC input + batteries (for example two pieces of Audiofire4) and a home built rig with four mic's, possibly CM3 from Line Audio.

If you have the laptop you'll get away with aprox. €1000.

The stuff mentioned are low priced but deliver quality at a high level.

Obviously a laptop is not ideal for street use as a DAT or Sound Devices unit would be but it will work.


/Peter

[big country]

Asus Eee PC 900A Notebook, Intel Atom N270 1.60 GHz processor, 1GB DDR2, 4GB SSD, 8.9-inch Wide LCD display,802.11b/g Wireless LAN, Linux OS - EEEPC900A - Buy.com
some how get XP or if windows 7 on it
eee pc has a ton of mods one can do and its a great computer

down load audacity ( daw )
Audacity: Free Audio Editor and Recorder


PreSonus

audio box sounds rad for almost any price

Crown Audio | SASSP-MK2 - Stereo PZM Microphone | SASS-P MKII

this might be on the expensive but on the cheap you could
wire up some panasonic caps to make your own PZMs

Crown Sound Grabber II | Sweetwater.com
these are cheap but work ,
tape or glue them to a block of wood for pzm binuaral ( pretty awsome sound image btw )

that or spend more on better pzm mics








computer 200.00
audio box 150.00
head phones 100.00
cables 50.00
make your PZM binuaraul out of panisonic caps
that or buy two PZM
DAW free
I think you get windows 7 for free
im pretty sure the audio box drivers work in w7

Matt and Olivia TV Commercial - Microsoft Watch the Ads

did I win

[John Willett]

From reading the above, the only usable solution within budget is the Core tetramic. in a Rycote S-series with an Edirol R-44.

A computer of any sort is not a usable location recording machine as the OP wants.

[Denis Goekdag]

Exactly :-)

[Mats H]

Hi,

You should check out Line Audio QM12i, a quad mic:

LINE AUDIO DESIGN

Otherwise, the Tetramic is probably your best bet. It looks really interesting and has a very reasonable price too.

A four channel reacorder at a budget should be the R-44, it's been well recieved and there are upgrades available from Oade Brothers if you're not satisfied with the stock audio quality.

OADE BROTHERS AUDIO Field Recording Experts, Sony, Tascam, Marantz, Fostex, Compact Flash recorders

You'll need a blimp system. The DPA Windpac is probably a bit out of reach but a second hand Rycote shouldn't be too hard to find.

Monitoring while on the move is probably difficult.

Best of luck!

[nurfen]

WOW! I can only check this thread once in a while, but I never expected this amount of replies. THANK YOU! We've got all the info we need for surround recording.

Although: As we've done a little bit of talking regarding what's been said in this thread, we've decided to look at what's available in the same budget if we would only record in stereo. We've realized that perhaps the surround sound isn't such a great selling point as it seemed to be... And we just want to hear what you guys have to say about it.

So, can you please continue helping me - with great stereo microphones which can stand some wind, and capture the "atmosphere"?

Thanks again,
Fredrik

[big country]

I would go with a binaural or a jecklin


Jecklin Disk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Binaural recording - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZM_(microphone)

the PZM binaural combines the best of both phase and stereo worlds

as for wind you could try getting creative

[Denis Goekdag]

Even though you're going stereo now, I've compiled a list of surround microphone options for future reference.

[Martin Kantola]

Hi Denis,

that's very cool! Would you care to include my system too, the panphonic NU-880F? Have some sound clips behind the link below, pictured is one of the prototypes.

Martin

[Denis Goekdag]

Hi Martin,

sure, I was considering it anyway :-) I didn't find any specific info on your site, though, so I figured it is not actually available at this point?
All I seem to be able to find on your site are examples of recordings and some pictures....the examples sound extremely good, though!

So basically, please let me know a little more about the mic (seems like it doesn't do the height? Looks like a dual large diaphragm design with one figure 8 and a "dual cardioid" like in the mkh800 twin?) and I'll write that on my site so people navigating there get some more info to boot.

Also those foldable windshields look *very* interesting, what are they?

Cheers!
Denis

[ghellquist]

Well, stereo makes things much easier. More mainstream.

First, a recommendation:
-- rent audio equipment for your first shots. Can be surprisingly inexpensive compared to the purchase price and allows you to work out your requirements in the real world. Big difference compared to theory.

Ideas:

-- see if you can record sound in the video camera directly. Don´t use the built-in microphones but see how you can connect external mics. No expert but I believe some cameras actually has rather good internal sound. Saves a lot of hassle in post as well. You might want a small external pre (Sound Device mixpre comes to mind) or external mixer (say, the SD 302) and go with a cable to the camera. There are ways to go wireless to the camera as well, but just maybe save that for better times with larger budgets.

-- there are lots of two channel boxes out there. A specialized forum to get some more feedback is Taperssection.com - Index .

-- stereo on location sort of suggests M/S to me. I really like the combo I have of Sennheiser MKH30 + MKH40 + Rycote stereo wind screen. Quite a bite budgetwise though, but do check if you can rent it. MS has certain advantages on location (and of course some disadvantages).

-- if you go the more "conventional" route you might find the Roede NT 4 stereo mic an acceptable starting point. Roede generally makes quite acceptable mics more in the budget price range.

-- of course there are a zillion different mics to choose from. General recommendation (if you cannot rent) is to look for top brands of used equipment. They are generally made to higher standards than the budget stuff. If nothing else these generally resells again withoug loss. But mics will last your lifetime if not totally maltreated.

Gunnar

[Martin Kantola]

Originally Posted by Denis Goekdag

I didn't find any specific info on your site, though, so I figured it is not actually available at this point?

It's available, but only as hand built to order so far. Hoping this will change very soon, so that I can have demo units available and perhaps even a little stock.

Originally Posted by Denis Goekdag

All I seem to be able to find on your site are examples of recordings and some pictures....the examples sound extremely good, though!

Yes, sorry about the poor info (there some on the nu47.com site too). Glad you like the sound!

Originally Posted by Denis Goekdag

So basically, please let me know a little more about the mic (seems like it doesn't do the height?

Have built a version with height too, so it's possible, but yes, normally it's panphonic and not periphonic.

Originally Posted by Denis Goekdag

Looks like a dual large diaphragm design with one figure 8 and a "dual cardioid" like in the mkh800 twin?) and I'll write that on my site so people navigating there get some more info to boot.

Great, thanks! I'm using two custom made capsules from Pearl in Sweden, with very tightly matched diaphragms etc. The output is horizontal B-format, two fig-8's and one omni. Very simple, very clean signal path. And super low noise which is important in any ambiance recording.

Currently working on a tube version for release, which to my knowledge is the only surround capable tube microphone in the world.

Originally Posted by Denis Goekdag

Also those foldable windshields look *very* interesting, what are they?

DPA Windpac, excellent but a bit expensive and quite fragile.

Martin

[James0b57]

Get:
1.) Two 2-track digital recorders, that have XLR connectors and 48v phantom power mic pre's
2.) Four cardiod small diaphram budget mics.
3.) Four short XLR cables.
4.) Make your own mic mount and wind protection. Look up some DIY projects.


Since, you are manually syncing the audio for short videos, you won't mind syncing audio from two seperate sources.
The four cardiod mics can mounted to your own custom array, and creating wind protection is easy. Also, the mics can be used individually for any multitude of applications (interviews, music recording, on-camera, VO, boom dailogue, etc). And you will have two recorders which can be used separately as well.

The total price could be within $1000 for mics and recorders.

Now you can afford gas and snacks.

[tsvisser]

Originally Posted by James0b57

Get:
1.) Two 2-track digital recorders, that have XLR connectors and 48v phantom power mic pre's
2.) Four cardiod small diaphram budget mics.
3.) Four short XLR cables.
4.) Make your own mic mount and wind protection. Look up some DIY projects.


Since, you are manually syncing the audio for short videos, you won't mind syncing audio from two seperate sources.
The four cardiod mics can mounted to your own custom array, and creating wind protection is easy. Also, the mics can be used individually for any multitude of applications (interviews, music recording, on-camera, VO, boom dailogue, etc). And you will have two recorders which can be used separately as well.

The total price could be within $1000 for mics and recorders.

Now you can afford gas and snacks.

Unless those recorders can link, you could face some potential problems doing it this way... maybe not, but situations would vary. The same reason why you can't take two mono recorders and then link them back up to stereo, it will do things to the stereo sound field of true stereo mic arrays, even if you seem to link them in post manually. But if this was a problem, it would be a high production value gig, and would warrant higher end equipment.

There are some Sony camcorders that have built in 5.1 capability, even a little remote blue-tooth mic that can be clipped on a person for the center channel. Might be worth buying that, either it meets your needs, or you learn a valuable lesson and realize quality usually means knowledge + $$$.

I personally like double M-S for surround recordings, which only requires 3 channels to do plus an optional spot mic for the center. In this case, the R-44 would be a good deal and I hear its performance to cost ratio is pretty good.

[James0b57]

Unless someone drops out of heaven and says,"Here take all this great cool gear," an even cheaper suround alternative is to get two Tascam DR-7 recorders. These little things get good audio with their built in mics. They have little screw holes in them so it would be easy to mount them to your camera. You can sync up the two stereo tracks from the recorders in post and, whala! you've got surround sound recorded digitally to SD cards at CD quality for under $399! You won't need anything else, you're all good to go!

There is always something a little better. If you think that way you could end up with half of what you need to get the results you want. Or you could end up delaying things waiting for a deal, and never do anything. Watch yourself. Stick the budget and get something done! Build on your small successes and get a reputation!


-------------

The R-44 4-channel recorder is pretty cool. Looks like a good "bang for your buck" tool. I actually had forgotten about that (Somebody else aslo mentioned the H4 4-track recorder, that's a good one too).

The guys who started this thread seem pretty set on the Holophone mic.

It may sound funny coming from me, but I would not recommend the sony camcorder surround sound thingy. The surround sound effect won't be prominent enough. And the self noise would probably be unusable for anything more than home video. It does fill a niche, so kudos to Sony.

If the guys want a really obvious surround sound effect they are probably better going with the separate individual mics over the Holophone. Double M/S is nice, though typically expensive (fig 8 mics are always a little more.) If they reeaaaally skimp on everything else, they could get the R-44 and the Holophone. That could end up being ideal for them, at least audio wise. but there goes 2/3 their budget. Which may be ok if $3000 is their gear budget and not their entire production budget.

Anyway, best of luck to them, and best of luck to anyone else. I'm all for unconventional methods if it does what I need it to. Recording to two seperate stereo recorders for the surround sound effect will work. It may cause certain issues, but it can work very well. If people listen to it and say,"hey, cool that is surround sound," then you win. Haha. It really comes down to that. I prefer better equipment, but I remember when I didn't have access to it, and nobody would give suggestions on how to do anything cheaply when effect is more important than perfection.