SoundDevices 788t

[MichaelPatrick]

As a user of both SD788T and 744T recorders, I still use outboard preamps and sometimes outboard AD as well. The beauty of having these recorders is their flexibility and how much they can bring to any gig based on your needs, leaving you with options to fill in the chain with boutique gear where it matters. I can use the recorder's preamps for some channels, all of them, or none of them. When setup time is sparse I'll bring less gear and still get the job done without excuses. When I want to go all out I'll roll in with a rack of preamps, a converter, extra monitoring, and occasionally even a mixer.

One thing for sure, they are the most reliable gear I own with the exception of perhaps a few power cords that have, also, never let me down.

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by mosrite

Also, what you are proposing means a one camera shoot right? for a concert? that would make damn boring viewing I reckon.

If I record a concert I bring my car and ultra portable is not necessary. I'm just inspired and impressed by the advances in high performance electronics which makes it possible to bring gear with less crew to places you couldn't dream of 10-20 years ago.

Last concert I did was recorded with two videocams, for the next one I will try to use a PMW-EX1R with one or two DSLRS for close ups and "effects" so no, I don't recommend one camera for a concert.

Right now I'm looking into shorts and commercials and there the 788T and DSLR's seems very nice. I have begun doing shorts on street musicians and the stuff I've seen from DSLR's is very nice IF you know about the limitations and work around them.

We are now seriously off topic but linking back to the SD788t; small size does have its limitations sonically.

Not necessarily.

Don't get me wrong it is a clean transparent sound, but in answer to your first question, no I don't believe it holds up against a dedicated bunch of excellent external pres/adc's. I can only go on the SD744t that I have used so apologies if the SD788 is of different pre/ADC technology.

Don't know if you know where I'm coming from but a piece of gear that is transparent is perfect and flawless to me. It can't be better than transparent.

I also believe that the 788T is different than 744T due to manufacturer spec's.

I think all of us here have dreamed of the portability thing (I know I have) but the reality is that if it is a recording that you are getting paid for or a recording that is very important to you or the people involved then I know I would personally prefer to lug the heavy (but better sounding) rack gear and get the best possible sound.

Sure if performance is better and the situation does not call for small and light gear. Some situation calls for portable gear that run without mains power. Think indie film making, documentaries, ENG and so on.

Also, what of mic stands?

A boom pole of titanium or carbon is light, portable and can be used as a stand. If you'r creative you can attach mic's to "stuff" and fly them as well.

XLR cables?

A bunch easily go down in a reasonably sized bag or back-pack.

headphones (for clients too)?

Filming a sports climber on a wall, a street musician or similar the client does not need can's and is possibly not even present. Also using well known gear you can omit headphones sometimes even for yourself.

an 8-trk recording can never be super portable.

Of course it can and I will get one! :-)

I will try to loan or rent a 788T and will get back with my impressions and measurements.


/Peter

[boojum]

IIRC, SD redesigned the whole topology of the recorder for the 788T. It was done in a record time of a few short months. The design is quite good and the sound is quite good. And the flexibility is excellent. As difficult as it seems to be to grasp, the machine is an excellent 8 input, 12 track recorder. The pre's and ADC's are first-rate.

I am looking forward to the NVI/788T tests. I do not think there will be large differences. I think one might be a tad better in one area and the other a tad better in a different area. For me, the light, small, easy to set up and use, top notch quality, first rate support and excellent warranty work helped me decide. NVI is nice and has a great cachet. SD in in Wisconsin and gets fixed fast should the need arise. To date I have had the hardware upgraded under warranty. I think the ADC's were swapped out for cooler running ones and I had some bad LED's replaced. Quick turnaround time, fast e-mail response and instant phone response and great "hand holding" help.

I have not had an NVI so I cannot compare how Nagra handles repair, support and so on. I read the NVI "wish list" thread so I have a pretty good idea of its problems.

"Each to his own," said the old lady as she kissed the cow. Because she had the tail to wipe her mouth.

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by boojum

IIRC, SD redesigned the whole topology of the recorder for the 788T. It was done in a record time of a few short months.

Adding a few notes: The 788T's internal routing has fewer relays than the 744T and it's now all digital. The software also took awhile; 788T hardware was released 10 months before the firmware to handle 88.2 and 96 SRs. Before then 48 was max.

[Petrus]

I would be surprised if somebody could actually reliably tell a SD788 recording apart from (transparent) rack gear recording. It is so good. Interesting to hear the upcoming Nagra/SD test.

We just shot a company video with EOS-5DII, great quality, but the camera is clumsy contraption with follow focus, external monitors and 30 kg lead battery to run them all... Had to rig all kinds of supports just to hold the lens straight etc. It also took about 9 hours of computer time just to convert the files into something FCP can actually edit. Not more about this, PM me if somebody is interested in details.

[mosrite]

Sure if performance is better and the situation does not call for small and light gear. Some situation calls for portable gear that run without mains power. Think indie film making, documentaries, ENG and so on.

Filming a sports climber on a wall, a street musician or similar the client does not need can's and is possibly not even present. Also using well known gear you can omit headphones sometimes even for yourself.

AudioP, sorry but we are on a different page. I only mentioned the video stuff at the start of my post. The rest was concerned with portability in music recording. Sorry if there was any confusion. I don't think here is the place for talking video anyway, I just coulnd't help but add my 2cents (pence!) when you mentioned the new DSLR's...

Don't know if you know where I'm coming from but a piece of gear that is transparent is perfect and flawless to me. It can't be better than transparent

.

I have bad news for you, there is no such thing is transparent.

If you'r creative you can attach mic's to "stuff" and fly them as well.

Maybe you could attach a stereo pair to the conductors head ?

You see this IS a compromise. You are restricting yourself to small stands or wire. Will you be able to make the best recording possible with these limitations? I don't think so.

Also consider the DAC and headphone amp. Will you be able to make more critical placement decisions with a dedicated DAC/headphone amp? Of course.

Portability = Compromise (in most instances). That doesn't mean it doesn't have its place.

I would be surprised if somebody could actually reliably tell a SD788 recording apart from (transparent) rack gear recording. It is so good. Interesting to hear the upcoming Nagra/SD test.

I would be suprised if a recording professional couldn't! Having said that I should be careful because if the SD788t is on a different level sonically than the 744t (the only other one I have used) then I cannot judge.

I have also used the Nagra VI and have to say that I was very impressed with the quality. BUT I still supplemented it with a pair of Neve 1073's as only the Neve delivered the sound I wanted with the Coles 4040's I was using. Not using the Neve would have been a compromise. I think in this regard MichaelPatrick put it best.

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by mosrite

I have bad news for you, there is no such thing is transparent.

Yes there are transparent gear and components.

Maybe you could attach a stereo pair to the conductors head ?

What's with that attitude? If you are smart and creative there are lots of ways to put up your mic's.

Below is a K&M light weight boom pole with a pair of MKH8040's on Rycote mounts.

You see this IS a compromise. You are restricting yourself to small stands or wire. Will you be able to make the best recording possible with these limitations? I don't think so.

I think you miss the point. I'm always for bringing the best gear possible but sometimes a recording is better than no recording and sometimes small light gear is no compromise.

Also consider the DAC and headphone amp. Will you be able to make more critical placement decisions with a dedicated DAC/headphone amp? Of course.

A "dedicated" something is not automagically better than something integrated. You use the right tools for the job just as any craft would call for.

Portability = Compromise (in most instances). That doesn't mean it doesn't have its place.

Portability can be the difference between getting the job done or not. Stating thumb of rules such as portability equals compromise makes little sense. When it comes to electronics small size often goes hand in hand with high performance.

I would be suprised if a recording professional couldn't! Having said that I should be careful because if the SD788t is on a different level sonically than the 744t (the only other one I have used) then I cannot judge.

So why be so verbal about a piece of gear that you have actually not used?

I have also used the Nagra VI and have to say that I was very impressed with the quality. BUT I still supplemented it with a pair of Neve 1073's as only the Neve delivered the sound I wanted with the Coles 4040's I was using. Not using the Neve would have been a compromise. I think in this regard MichaelPatrick put it best.

I can't argue with taste and have not used any of those pieces you mentioned.


/Peter

[summer_room]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Below is a K&M light weight boom pole with a pair of MKH8040's on Rycote mounts.

Attachment 170003

/Peter

I like!

[Audiop]

Yes, me too! :-)

I also have the longer K&M pole which extend to 3m or so. It's still very light and is less than 1 meter in the bag.


/Peter

[mosrite]

Yes there are transparent gear and components.

There is gear that can be claimed (subjectively) to be more transparent than others, but there is no such thing as transparent gear.

What's with that attitude?

I believe its called humour, attitude is a little different. Sorry if you got me wrong on that. I just found the image of a conductor with a couple of mics gaffer taped to his head amusing.

I think you miss the point. I'm always for bringing the best gear possible but sometimes a recording is better than no recording and sometimes small light gear is no compromise.

Which was EXACTLY my point when I said:

Portability = Compromise (in most instances). That doesn't mean it doesn't have its place.

I stopped myself from commenting specifically on the SD788t as I havn't used that particular SD machine. My comments are more generally concerned with portability in equipment and the inherent compromises associated with it that are not always preamp and adc related.

I can't argue with taste and have not used any of those pieces you mentioned.

You don't have to have used them to get the point I was trying to make.

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by mosrite

There is gear that can be claimed (subjectively) to be more transparent than others,

Well yes and no. Either something is transparent or it's not. Sure, one can say that a is closer to transparent than b but in such case neither is.

but there is no such thing as transparent gear.

That is a claim that I find very strange. To know that something does not exist you must travel the world and turn every stone. In plain french that means that you have to perform controlled tests on all gear ever built. We both know that is not the case so let's get to the only really meaningful use of the word/term "transparent" when it comes to audio technology.

If I test a piece of gear and find + claim it's transparent that could be said to be true until someone else prove the opposite iow manage to detect the gear in a controlled test.

I can make a list of gear and components that so far never have been detected.

I know there are a lot of people sharing your view but one thing those have in common is lack of experience of controlled tests and also lack of knowledge of electronics, acoustics and human perception.

I believe its called humour, attitude is a little different. Sorry if you got me wrong on that. I just found the image of a conductor with a couple of mics gaffer taped to his head amusing.

Oh, well I've heard of it and now when you put it that way I smile with a very odd picture in my head. The way you presented it though pointed more towards an attitude and attempt of dumbing and "belittling".

You don't have to have used them to get the point I was trying to make.

I got the point as you have a preference for this or that gear over the other which is not to say that the gear you find lacking is not perfect to me who strive for transparency in the electronic chain as a start in most situations.

To round off with something slightly more on topic: I have arranged so I can test a Nagra and 788T in a couple of weeks. Hopefully I'll find time to do both measurements and various tests of sonics and post them here.


/Peter

[wbrock001]

Do you have some higher quality encodings elsewhere? I can definitely hear the compression artifacts but its still quite beautiful. Where was the placement of the 4050's?

Originally Posted by thedommer

But yes, you are right. having just the recorder is awesome. I did a recording fairly recently out in a small cabin that had no power in the woods. It was for a few simple youtube video. the 744t and 2 4050s made it happen. Its hard to tell sound quality on youtube but either way here they are:

YouTube - Dala - Stand in Awe

YouTube - Dala - Levi Blues


I dont think I did much messing around with it after. maybe a bit of compression and the slightest amount of eq. although I don't think so.

so in conclusion. the 744t is one of my favorite pieces or hardware ever. it makes me happy and is useful so often. very very transparent and awesome converters and pres.

[Petrus]

There have been tests where AD/DA converted signal has been compared to a live wire analog feed, and test subjects could not differentiate between them. Would that be called transparent?

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by Petrus

There have been tests where AD/DA converted signal has been compared to a live wire analog feed, and test subjects could not differentiate between them. Would that be called transparent?

And line amplifiers, and power amps (not to mention cables and connectors which possibly should not enter the disucssion since they are passive devices).

Thing is "everything has a sonic fingerprint" is a myth born out of ignorance.


/Peter

[mosrite]

AudioP, you are a mystery

That is a claim that I find very strange. To know that something does not exist you must travel the world and turn every stone. In plain french that means that you have to perform controlled tests on all gear ever built. We both know that is not the case so let's get to the only really meaningful use of the word/term "transparent" when it comes to audio technology.

Semantics. I am saying that there is no such thing is transparency in a signal chain not that one piece of equipment might be deemed more transparent than another. It is something to strive toward, not something fully achieveable.

Thing is "everything has a sonic fingerprint" is a myth born out of ignorance.

Please explain this bizarre sentence a little more.

Audio is captured. A signal chain is used for this capture. There are many variables within that signal chain, there are many options for that signal chain. Each part of that signal chain imposes its own sound to the resulting recording. From the very high differentials caused by mic choice to the very low with choice of cables etc.

I know there are a lot of people sharing your view but one thing those have in common is lack of experience of controlled tests and also lack of knowledge of electronics, acoustics and human perception.

And how about experience with recording? After all I believe that is what most people on this board do.

The way you presented it though pointed more towards an attitude and attempt of dumbing and "belittling".

That's certainly not the way I intended it and apologies if that's what you felt.

[MichaelPatrick]

If it's any comfort, when most people try to communicate something emotional with written words, or they interpret written words thinking they contain an emotion, their judgments are usually flawed.

The inherent weakness of forums like Gearslutz is both a challenge and an opportunity to become a better writer.

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by mosrite

AudioP, you are a mystery

I'm sure I can make sense to you with a minimum of effort but let's leave the person out and discuss what is actually being said instead.

Semantics. I am saying that there is no such thing is transparency in a signal chain not that one piece of equipment might be deemed more transparent than another. It is something to strive toward, not something fully achieveable.

Yes, you say this but experience and controlled tests says something else. Not semantics at all.

Audiop wrote:

Originally Posted by Audiop

Thing is "everything has a sonic fingerprint" is a myth born out of ignorance.

mosrite respond:

Originally Posted by mosrite

Please explain this bizarre sentence a little more.

The idea of that everything you put in the signal chain has an audible effect is a myth. It's not bizarre, it's not an opinion it's fact.

Originally Posted by mosrite

Audio is captured. A signal chain is used for this capture. There are many variables within that signal chain, there are many options for that signal chain. Each part of that signal chain imposes its own sound to the resulting recording. From the very high differentials caused by mic choice to the very low with choice of cables etc.

Please note that I wrote:

Originally Posted by Audiop

me who strive for transparency in the electronic chain as a start in most situations.

Electronic chain means transmission links and not electromechanical transducers iow. mic's and speakers. The latter are obviously more complicated than an electronic device that only have a signal that has a changing amplitude vs. time.

And to repeat myself, everything does not impose a sound to the resultig recording. That is a myth without any evidence what so ever backing it up. On the contrary it has been shown that the opposite is true. Anyone claiming something else need to back up that with some substance.

Originally Posted by mosrite

And how about experience with recording? After all I believe that is what most people on this board do.

Yes?

Originally Posted by mosrite

That's certainly not the way I intended it and apologies if that's what you felt.

Emoticons is used to communicate thoughts and feelings and that face-palm thingy typically has a negative vibe to it and used that way.

Apologies accepted!


/Peter

[mosrite]

If it's any comfort, when most people try to communicate something emotional with written words, or they interpret written words thinking they contain an emotion, their judgments are usually flawed.

The inherent weakness of forums like Gearslutz is both a challenge and an opportunity to become a better writer.

Yes but its also helpful, I think, if people assume that comments are meant in a positive way (i.e. gentle humour) and not something personal. When people are on the defensive all the time it makes for far more mis-understandings within a 'toneless' interaction environment like a forum. (no pun intended with the use of the word 'toneless' btw).

Yes, you say this but experience and controlled tests says something else. Not semantics at all.

You will have to elaborate on this a bit. But first please re-read what I wrote as I don't think you quite get what I was trying to say.

The idea of that everything you put in the signal chain has an audible effect is a myth. It's not bizarre, it's not an opinion it's fact.

But in the context of the discussion we are not talking about audible effects in cables but in preamps and ADC's. Are you suggesting that these do not have an audible effect on the audio?

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by mosrite

... its ... helpful, I think, if people assume that comments are meant in a positive way (i.e. gentle humour) and not something personal. When people are on the defensive all the time it makes for far more mis-understandings within a 'toneless' interaction environment like a forum. (no pun intended with the use of the word 'toneless' btw).

I agree. A positive reading is safer and more likely correct than a negative reading. When I write something about a person I try to be purposeful and cautious, like I'm walking in a minefield.

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by mosrite

Yes but its also helpful, I think, if people assume that comments are meant in a positive way (i.e. gentle humour) and not something personal. When people are on the defensive all the time it makes for far more mis-understandings within a 'toneless' interaction environment like a forum. (no pun intended with the use of the word 'toneless' btw).

Agree! But.. since the web is "toneless" (well not really) it can be a god idea to be clear with the comunication. For example a ;-) or some funny emoticon would not have been taken negatively as the face-palm which basically communicate "dumb" in such a context.

You seem to disagree with most of what I said initially and tells me how it is and in that context the face-palm does not send very warm or funny feelings, more like (do I repeat myself now?:-) I'm dumb or silly who thinks you can get by mounting mic's without a big manfrotto or K&M and even dumber suggesting you could carry eight mic cables in a bag.. ;-)

You will have to elaborate on this a bit. But first please re-read what I wrote as I don't think you quite get what I was trying to say.

What I am saying is that contrary to what you claim there have been plenty of controlled tests that shows many devices and processes are transparent to the human ear.

But in the context of the discussion we are not talking about audible effects in cables but in preamps and ADC's. Are you suggesting that these do not have an audible effect on the audio?

I am saying that there are active devices that pass without detection in controlled tests. That should not be read as most gear is transparent, cause that's not the case, again according to experience.

Line level electronics is perhaps the easiest thing to get transparent. Power amps and AD/DA possible but harder.

In the end I'm practical. Transparency is the goal for the transmission links for me but let's say that a piece of gear is perfect in all ways except for a small percent of audio pro's or experienced hobbyists that can detect a small but not very unpleasant coloration on some very special program material in the best studios. That does not stop me from buying and using that piece of gear since it practically means diddley in the big scheme of things.

What I like to do though is make sure there are no significant colorations. Once I find gear (transmission links/purely electronic devices) that I can not detect in a blind test I can forget about that gear and work with what really counts. Choice of mic's, placement, acoustics and so on.


/Peter

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by Audiop

What I am saying is that contrary to what you claim there have been plenty of controlled tests that shows many devices and processes are transparent to the human ear.

For example, could you give the reference of a test showing that a preamp is or is not transparent ?

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

For example, could you give the reference of a test showing that a preamp is or is not transparent ?

I'll take a look.

Detecting a coloration is no problem of course.. it's just about picking a poor or less than stellar design and suitable program material.

One test by swedish LTS showed the Bryston 14BSST to be transparent to a very experienced panel (after Bryston changed the design according to the findings during this test).

http://bryston.com/pdfs/07/Swedish14BSSTReview.pdf

Putting this amp to test could be a start for those insisting on all amps having a sound. I've mentioned this test earlier at GS.

Paul Frindle has designed line level preamps that is transparent if memory serves me.

I posted loop tests of Line Audio 8MP and Lynx Aurora 8 here at GS which no one has been able to detect AFAIK. That is one DA, one AD, one attenuator and one mic preamp.. and also 10m generic cables and XLR's which some say colors the sound.


/Peter

[charles maynes]

the 788 is a great and economical solution for an 8 track recorder-

the downsides though-

short battery life

runs pretty hot

limiters are in the digital domain and unavailable at 96k

will not record at higher than 96k.

It is still a lot cheaper than 2 744's and the mixers that need to accompany them though.

And Sound Devices is just the coolest company out there for field recorders.

[Denis Goekdag]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

788 will not record at higher than 96k.

Yep, that is exactly the reason why I haven't replaced my 702 with one yet. To be fair, there really aren't a whole lot of recorders that record at 192 to 8 tracks --- really just the Sonosax, which has different weaknesses (only 4 pres, 6 ADs) and possibly the Deva/Fusion in the most recent soft-/firmware (not too sure about that).

[mosrite]

What I am saying is that contrary to what you claim there have been plenty of controlled tests that shows many devices and processes are transparent to the human ear.

I'm sure that many are, but that was not my point.

I'm dumb or silly who thinks you can get by mounting mic's without a big manfrotto or K&M and even dumber suggesting you could carry eight mic cables in a bag.. ;-)

Big assumptions. Which gets back to my point about it being helpful if people assume the positive in posts.

AudioP, we are going around in circles. I am interested to hear how you get on with the Nagra VI though, keep us informed

[Audiop]

Oki, thanks for the good spirit mosrite!


/Peter