I hate to ask another acoustic guitar question, but...

[Corran]

Okay, I've got a very important session in a few days with less than optimal setup time and I need some help.

I've written a piece for acoustic guitar and flute, kind of a bluegrass/classical hybrid thing. I am having to track the parts separately (this is non-negotiable). I will have endless amounts of time to get the flute parts right since I'm playing them but the guitar parts have to be nailed down quickly so that's the question here.

I want a full stereo sound, not mono. I want that "sparkly" sound but plenty of depth in the sound (lows), not just the high frequencies.

How would you go about miking the guitar? This will be in a medium-small room with hardwood floors, with the option of some acoustic baffling (sheets).

Mics available are Schoeps CMC6/MK4 (2), OktavaMod PE 219 LDC (2), Earthworks QTC-1 (2) or SR-77 (2), heavily modded BM-5 stereo ribbon, and plenty of cheaper stuff. I'm willing to put up several pairs to ensure success.


A friend of mine played some basic guitar to give me some ideas and the best setup seemed to be one Schoeps at the body/neck joint about 8" out and the other below the bridge but it still wasn't quite right. I always have trouble with the guitar image sounding skewed to the left because of the bigger sound from the sound board. Panning to correct this just makes the guitar sound rather thin.

Thanks for your suggestions and sorry to have another ac. guitar question, did some searching and nothing really struck me as what I was looking for.

[andersmv]

Where are you in south georgia? I think a rode nt-4 paired with something like a ribbon would be PERFECT from what I gathered of the description of sound you want. I have one and I'm in Warner Robins and would be willing to let you borrow it. Let me know. The NT-4 is my favorite mic for guitars when I do stereo and it usually plays really well with other mics. It's in XY so setup is about as easy as you can ask for when it comes to set up and finding a good sound.

[Corran]

Hey there -

Funny you are in WR. I was teaching at Northside High in the Spring. I am actually now down here in Valdosta starting grad work.

I appreciate your offer but I actually had an NT-4 and sold it - it wasn't my cup of tea. I could do an X-Y pair with my Schoeps but X-Y was also not my preference on acoustic. However, where do you place the X-Y pair? I might not have had it in an optimal position.

The more I thought about it, I was thinking of putting one Schoeps under the bridge and one where the neck and body meet, both something like 8-10" out, then one Oktava 219PE over his right shoulder and one further back in the room, and then the stereo ribbon mic like 2 feet in front of the guitar somewhere. This would give me lots of options. BUT, I don't really record guitar a lot so this is just shooting in the dark based on my readings and limited experience.

[Audiop]

I've had nice results using X/Y MKH8040 and some reverb on acoustic (steel).

Add a pair of omnis or fig-8 at one-two meter or so as an option for mixdown.

I would position the mic's slightly above the guitar looking down in order to avoid excess boominess. Also possibly somewhere in front of 12th fret or so in order to avoid excessive noise from nails/pick.


/Peter

[jnorman]

hi bryan - how about a spaced pair of the EW's? i think this is exactly the kind of thing those mics excel at - just dont aim one right at the soundhole. otherwise, i think an XY pair of cards at the 12th fret might work. i have also had the problem of the mic on the soundboard being boomy and heavy, so if you do that, aim it considerably away from the hole.

a more interesting problem for this effort, though, may be the distance balancing between the flute and the guitar. typically, flute sounds pretty crummy to me if it is close miced, and only starts getting useable at about 4 feet, and is usually better at 6-8 feet. whereas the acoustic guitar almost has to be close miced (i have never gotten a decent guitar sound further out than 18". so, when you blend a flute at 6' with a guitar at 18", the difference in distance is quite evident in the mix. just putting more verb on the guitar does not fix that. rolling off the highs can help push the guitar back some.

however, i think that you might want to put up both a close stereo pair and a more distant stereo pair when tracking the guitar - use mostly the distant stereo pair in the mix, and just bring up enough of the close pair to enhance the clarity. this is what i do when tracking flute with pedal harp.

[Corran]

Thanks for the suggestions guys. Yes I am worried about the flute sounding further back than the guitar, but on the other hand this will probably be less classical and more bluegrass really, so a closer mic on the flute might actually be what's called for.

As for the EW spaced pair, I used them for that on a singer/songwriter once and it did sound good, but there was something not quite right about the sound. I can't describe it, but it was just off somehow. I might be throwing up the QTC-1's as a AB pair further back in the room for potential ambiance. I hope the guitarist doesn't mind that I might have 7 mics up for options galore.

[joelpatterson]

He'll probably say, "What is this... only seven mics???"

[Corran]

In case anyone was wondering:

I used the pair of Schoeps, one under the bridge and the other at the neck. I also had an Oktava 219PE aimed at the sound hole about 4 feet away above the music stand. Overall the sound was excellent but a little bass-shy. Some EQ and I was set. I think this guitar was just a little shy in the lows and I didn't notice it until later since I wasn't actively monitoring (giving direction to the musician). If I could redo it I'd just move the Schoeps in towards the sound hole just a tad and maybe have the Oktava a little closer.

I guess I ended up not using a ton of mics but I think it worked out. The CMC64's are amazing as usual.

[jnorman]

so what about the flute part? i am still interested about the distance balancing issue...

[Corran]

Working on it now. Space is not the problem - getting an acceptable flute sound is! I am ultra-picky about this and I am of the opinion that flute is the hardest instrument to record. Especially if you want an up-front sound.

[DannyL]

I have found that the double bass (acoustic, dog house, etc) is the hardest instrument to record.

For flute you could try 1 Schoeps pointing down at the mouthpiece from 9" to a foot away, kind of angling towards the keys, the distance depending on the amount of room reverberation. To get less breath, move away from the mouth of the player. (you) To get farther away, use a more directional mic. Or Try a bidirectional mic with the back part of the pattern focused into a baffle.

danny

[Corran]

Yeah I was planning on trying out a mic or two above pointed towards the keys when I go to re-record it. I also have a stereo ribbon mic that I can toy around with. I was also going to try simply stereo miking in a rather dry hall and see what I can do to the guitar effects-wise to bring it into the room. Or possibly even play the guitar part out of speakers in the room and play along to make the whole thing sound like it's in that room. I don't know.

I think I stress over flute the most because it's my instrument.