Why is there no detail? Need advice.

[Empiria]

I made that recording in a small baroque church. Signal chain was high end, but it seems to be unclear, undetailed and kind of harsh. It was realy hard to find a right place for a main pair in the room. I've never experienced such troubles before. Also, there were problems with power in the church. I felt that even touching preamps (little electric shock). Can it have influence on the sound? Was the acoustic truly so bad? I think it was, but is that the only reason? What do yo u think of it? What was wrong? Thanks a lot!

A short sample includes mains and spots for a choir.

[d_fu]

What kind of mic setup is this? There is a lot of channel separation, nothing much in the middle. Have you got pictures of the church and setup?

[Empiria]

Originally Posted by d_fu

What kind of mic setup is this? There is a lot of channel separation, nothing much in the middle. Have you got pictures of the church and setup?

The mics were Schoeps MK21 in wide ORTF. No pictures. Channel separation is a one thing, but the sound is something different. I tried narrow and wider AB setups, wide ORTF worked the best for clarity (that is not too much anyway).

[boojum]

Tomasz, I thought it had a good sound but was indistinct as if it were AB. I am pretty new at this and can only comment as such. ORTF is 17cm, 110 degrees. Anything else is not ORTF and ORTF is card, not wide/sub cards. With my limited experience I would use the Williams papers (see Rycote) for angles and distances on the subs. It may yield better imaging. Flanking AB's would make the sound less distinct and detract from the near coincident localization.

That said, I did not perceive the "hole in the middle" that D_Fu hears. But he is sharper than I so I defer.

All in all a pretty good recording. It does seem a little harsh, yes. My guess is that the space is so small that you are getting a lot of refraction confusing the image. Good luck with finding the sweet spot. I work with a portable so carrying a mic stand and recorder while wearing earphones is not a hassle. It sounds like this is not your case.

Please let us know what happens. I can learn something with this and maybe others, too.

Cheers

[Petelebu]

the only thing i hear in the middle is a female voice.

[BrianHanke]

For me the issue is that the bass is missing, causing everything to sound a bit thin and weak. Perhaps if you EQ up the low-mids and lows you will find a more balanced sound?

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by boojum

ORTF is card.

The *original* french spec for the ORTF Array was implemented with Hypercardiods in mind, not cardiods. Thats why the included angle is 110, which is twice the angle that causes a 3db drop in sensitivity of a typical Hypercardiod(55 deg).

[Empiria]

Originally Posted by boojum

ORTF is 17cm, 110 degrees. Anything else is not ORTF and ORTF is card, not wide/sub cards.

Yes, you are right, as well is Teddy saying the original ORTF was hypercards. Another thing is that people in pro audio, including some "big" names use wide cardioids for ORTFish setups. Some call them "wide", others "modified", but it works well.

Maybe that setup was too wide, but that is not a reason it sounds poor. What is?

Thanks for your input, gentlemen.

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by Empiria

Maybe that setup was too wide, but that is not a reason it sounds poor. What is?

Thanks for your input, gentlemen.

Not seeing the setup, and I may be all wet, but it seems like (as you've noticed) the room was unkind... almost as if there were a frequency node of some kind in the upper vocal range (listening through Ultrasone 650s) causing it to ring with that bit of harshness. It also sounded like the mics were in a bit too close, and down a bit too close, as well as spread a bit too much. Maybe (if there's another recording in that room) try farther back and higher up (to get a bit away from what was almost a "close mic'ed" sound), with a bit tighter angle (80-90 degrees, maybe?)... The past two or three times out with my 8040s, the 110 degree spread has left a hole... I've been at 90 (or just under... mics turned in to maybe 15-16cm instead of 17cm/110 degrees on my short stereo bar) to bring in the center. The main pair in the St. Paul's clip was like that...

Or... omnis, maybe 30 cm, in this room? Record a bit more diffuse sound, without losing the stereo image? Hope I'm not too far out in left field on this...

As far as power issues... can you use a regulated conditioner? I have a Furman AR-1215 (FurmanSound.com - Pro A/V Product - AR-1215) that I run with good success... or perhaps one of the single rackspace Monster units (MONSTER POWER® Pro Power for Custom Install). Likely both are available for 240/50 applications.

[chris319]

It does not sound unclear and undetailed, but rather sounds badly balanced. There is a hole in the middle. The vocals overpower the strings. There is a female voice in the left channel which is dominant.

Try mixing it to mono and listen.

[Empiria]

Originally Posted by chris319

It does not sound unclear and undetailed, but rather sounds badly balanced.

Balance is one a thing, the sound itself is another.

Harry, I appreciate you advice a lot. Thanks! I am thinking of Furman gear. Most of my work I do in churches, where power is almost as old as walls.

[chris319]

Balance is one a thing, the sound itself is another.

I clearly stated that it does not sound unclear and undetailed. That refers to the sound.

[d_fu]

I must admit I'm also a bit unsure what "undetailed" refers to. Could you post some recordings of yours that you like better, so we can get an idea of what kind of sound you're after?

[Empiria]

Originally Posted by d_fu

I must admit I'm also a bit unsure what "undetailed" refers to. Could you post some recordings of yours that you like better, so we can get an idea of what kind of sound you're after?

Maybe this one or that. Maybe the word 'harsh' describes what I feel in a better way.