What would you do?

JohnDoe · 25th July 2009

Hello everybody

Sorry to be posting this anonymously, but since it is a bit of a sensitive situation, I'd rather my real name not be associated with it.

Some one was referred to me to do a recording of a recital. The person asked about video recording, and I informed them that I only do audio and could recommend a couple of videographers if that's what they needed. The person informed me of their budget and (what I did not expect) asked if I would keep the date on hold just in case the videographer(s) was not available.

There are two people whom I would normally refer for this sort of thing. One would be out of the stated budget, and so the job would probably bounce right back to me. The other would be priced right on the budget and I am pretty sure he would deliver what this person is looking for. As a result, he would get the work (and whatever repeat business results from it) and I would not. As people, I am on friendly terms with both of these guys.

However, the story goes a bit deeper. Unbeknownst to him, the on-budget guy undercut me on a job and cost me a gig a couple of months ago. I found out about it when he dropped me an email asking to borrow some mic's and stands for the date (I said nothing about my knowledge, but offered to loan him some cheap chinese condensers - which he declined).

I know he did not do this maliciously - he did it as a favor for the conductor (who is a personal friend of his) and also to test out his new multitrack audio rig. To make life a little more complicated, I think he actually may have initially recommended me for the gig (I seem to remember him asking me about a referral a few months prior to the situation - before he had multitrack capability - though the conductor named one of the players in the orchestra - for whom I have also done a bit of work - as the referring party). In the end, the conductor balked at my price (even though it was heavily discounted) and went with the "free" guy. I understand why it went down as it did, and maybe he even did me a favor by taking a lowball job in less-than-good circumstances, but I have to admit I am still a little sore about it. Also, by doing what he did, he has established himself as a direct competitor on the lower end of the price scale.

The current job in question is not a big money job - I could live without it, but it would be great to have the additional business since things are a little slow, and it's always nice to get a new client with the chance for repeat business. I could do the right thing as a person and recommend this person to the guy who will give them what they want at the price they need, or I can do what's right as a business person and grab the gig for myself.

Sorry for the length of the post, but what would you do? Karma or cash?

Jim vanBergen · 26th July 2009

Reading your post, it sounds as though you will feel better if you get the $$ and the client; see if you can get return biz for4 more money later. You're not "taking" a job away from someone else if the call came to you originally, so no harm, no foul.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnDoe

Hello everybody

Sorry to be posting this anonymously, but since it is a bit of a sensitive situation, I'd rather my real name not be associated with it.

Some one was referred to me to do a recording of a recital. The person asked about video recording, and I informed them that I only do audio and could recommend a couple of videographers if that's what they needed. The person informed me of their budget and (what I did not expect) asked if I would keep the date on hold just in case the videographer(s) was not available.

There are two people whom I would normally refer for this sort of thing. One would be out of the stated budget, and so the job would probably bounce right back to me. The other would be priced right on the budget and I am pretty sure he would deliver what this person is looking for. As a result, he would get the work (and whatever repeat business results from it) and I would not. As people, I am on friendly terms with both of these guys.

However, the story goes a bit deeper. Unbeknownst to him, the on-budget guy undercut me on a job and cost me a gig a couple of months ago. I found out about it when he dropped me an email asking to borrow some mic's and stands for the date (I said nothing about my knowledge, but offered to loan him some cheap chinese condensers - which he declined).

I know he did not do this maliciously - he did it as a favor for the conductor (who is a personal friend of his) and also to test out his new multitrack audio rig. To make life a little more complicated, I think he actually may have initially recommended me for the gig (I seem to remember him asking me about a referral a few months prior to the situation - before he had multitrack capability - though the conductor named one of the players in the orchestra - for whom I have also done a bit of work - as the referring party). In the end, the conductor balked at my price (even though it was heavily discounted) and went with the "free" guy. I understand why it went down as it did, and maybe he even did me a favor by taking a lowball job in less-than-good circumstances, but I have to admit I am still a little sore about it. Also, by doing what he did, he has established himself as a direct competitor on the lower end of the price scale.

The current job in question is not a big money job - I could live without it, but it would be great to have the additional business since things are a little slow, and it's always nice to get a new client with the chance for repeat business. I could do the right thing as a person and recommend this person to the guy who will give them what they want at the price they need, or I can do what's right as a business person and grab the gig for myself.

Sorry for the length of the post, but what would you do? Karma or cash?

rumleymusic · 26th July 2009

I would suggest the videographer with the higher price regardless of what happened. It will show the client how much things cost in reality and make your services seem more affordable. There is nothing wrong with looking out for #1 in a competitive market.

You should never go out of your way to undercut someone else, but in this case I see nothing wrong with not recommending a person who may have less experience in multitrack recording. Remember that your reputation also is reflected on the quality of the work from the people you recommend (and on their business ethics).

CAMGRec · 26th July 2009

Hmm, it sounds like you have a real issue with this guy yet you acknowledge that "Unbeknownst to him," he got the job over you, and that "he did it as a favor for the conductor (who is a personal friend of his)" and "he did not do this maliciously" and you think "he actually may have initially recommended me for the gig." Not only that, but you even claim to "understand why it went down as it did," and you conclude by saying "maybe he even did me a favor by taking a lowball job in less-than-good circumstances."

And what have you done so far? you've "said nothing about my knowledge, but offered to loan him some cheap chinese condensers."

I know we're all in a cut-throat business and times are really tight right now, but I'm glad I'm not out there competing with you.

As far as "Karma or cash" - you said they wanted a video guy and you do audio, so how would you take the gig anyway?

If you're capable, take the job. End of story.

P.S. - just a recommendation if you're really worried about "Karma"...when that guy called you to borrow some gear, you should have offered him something decent. I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but that's how you get Karma working for you.

JohnDoe · 27th July 2009

Quote:

Hmm, it sounds like you have a real issue with this guy yet you acknowledge that "Unbeknownst to him," he got the job over you, and that "he did it as a favor for the conductor (who is a personal friend of his)" and "he did not do this maliciously" and you think "he actually may have initially recommended me for the gig." Not only that, but you even claim to "understand why it went down as it did," and you conclude by saying "maybe he even did me a favor by taking a lowball job in less-than-good circumstances."

And what have you done so far? you've "said nothing about my knowledge, but offered to loan him some cheap chinese condensers."

...

P.S. - just a recommendation if you're really worried about "Karma"...when that guy called you to borrow some gear, you should have offered him something decent. I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but that's how you get Karma working for you.
...
If you're capable, take the job. End of story.

I appreciate your candor, but there are some things you may not know based on your reply:

1 - this is no hobby for me - I use my good mic's to put a roof over my head and feed my family. I do not loan them to anyone. I would even have a problem renting them. The offer of the chinese condensers was actually as far as I would go if anyone approached me wanting to "borrow" my gear. The fact that he asked to borrow my gear for a job that actually took bread off my table was adding insult to injury, whether he knew it or not.

To take your own point and turn it around, why did he take the job from me if he did not have the capability in the first place?

2 - I am giving him a free pass by saying "unbeknownst" If he actually did give me a referral to this particular conductor, then he knew who he was undercutting. The conductor never mentioned his name, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

3 - The conductor actually had the date booked with me, but backed out when I suggested that he may want to leave himself a little more time in the session to accomplish what he wanted. He had the "free" option, so instead of rebooking and doing it right, he went with that instead.

4 - I have given this guy lots of referral business over the years - many of which panned out nicely for him.

Quote:

I know we're all in a cut-throat business and times are really tight right now, but I'm glad I'm not out there competing with you.

As far as "Karma or cash" - you said they wanted a video guy and you do audio, so how would you take the gig anyway?

If you're capable, take the job. End of story.

I can't compete with free. This guy is a freelancer - he knows the deal with taking bread off of other people's table. His audio rig is nowhere near as capable as mine.

It would be as though, in the current situation I am faced with, I refer the person to him, let them book it, and then contact them with an offer to do the job for free because I want to test out my new semi-pro camcorder.

How would he feel then?

I appreciate your honesty and showing me the other side of the coin, but I am really struggling with this one. How do I put money in his pocket when he has just taken some out of mine?

boojum · 27th July 2009

I do not loan gear to anyone. The gear is expensive. Why have a hassle about "Well it was working when I was using it. I don't know how it got broken."? I would wind up losing the gear and the relationship.

Recommend the better of the two competitors. You don't owe the low-baller any favors. Karma my ass; this is business, not Ashram 101. Kindness is one thing; self-sacrifice is another.

That said I am an amateur with some good gear. I do not offer my services any place where a pro would be competing and lose a paying deal on account of what I am doing. First it is unethical and second I am not sure I am as good as a pro. So why disappoint someone who has the money to spend and expects, and is due, a professional job? When I am good enough to bill out I can compete with the pros.

That's just my $0.02

JohnDoe · 27th July 2009

Bugger me.

I gave the person both numbers - let the universe sort it out.

videoteque · 27th July 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by boojum

Karma my ass

That was funny!

We are living these stupid times in which if you act as a bastard you feel bad, but if you act as a good person... you feel worse!!!

JohnDoe · 8th August 2009

Just wanted to let everyone know how it turned out.

As expected, the cheaper guy got the gig. I did not follow up to find out how it worked out - perhaps I should.

To date, I have not yet gotten a thank you or any acknowledgment at all from him for sending work his way (though I find it interesting that he had no trouble finding my email when he wanted to borrow $6k worth of kit).

I don't know how anyone else here does it, but I'll always drop an email or a call to say thanks to someone who refers me for a job - even if the gig doesn't work out. Is this not a common thing to do?

Perhpas the next time we meet on a gig he'll mention it, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt till then.

However, a good bit of work did come my way shortly thereafter, so I guess the universe smiled on the good deed after all.

boojum · 9th August 2009

Common decency dictates a "thank you" note at the least.

Audiop · 9th August 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by boojum

Common decency dictates a "thank you" note at the least.

Indeed!

/Peter

joelpatterson · 9th August 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnDoe

... To date, I have not yet gotten a thank you or any acknowledgment at all ...

This is the signal flare, for me, that I'm dealing with a lout. Do someone a favor, and be greeted with a deafening silence... I try to imagine, from their point of view, what's going on, and all I can envision is a sneaky, selfish, entitleized ethos that is really just good ol' shameless rip-offery. I don't forget how they acted... but someone they always do. VERY interesting...

Thomas W. Bethe · 10th August 2009

Not to steal this tread...but it seems this is something along the same lines...

A couple of years ago we were unable to do a gig for one of our on going clients due to a previous commitment. We recommended another audio company that we knew would do a good job. They did a good job but in the process stole the client from us. It was not that they did a much better job than we normally do but they low balled the price and the client, always being on the lookout for a "better deal" went with them. Soon after the client stopped using us the other company raised their rates and the client called me up and asked if we could start doing their concerts again. I am never sure what to do in such cases and told the client I would get back to them. Any ideas?????

I could be Mr. Nice Guy and take the client back but the minute they find someone cheaper they probably would be gone in a flash or I could say no and leave them with the company they went with or some other sound company.

Suggestions would be welcomed....Thanks in advance.

5flagsaudio · 10th August 2009

To quote Michael Corleone "It's not personal, Sonny. It's just business."

Yes, if you take the client back, it's possible they could bail on you again for the next person that comes along with a lower offer. Or maybe they'll remember what happened the last time they bailed on you. Or the entire group could be killed in a freak accident and you'll have no more client. It's pointless to worry about things beyond your control. Take the client back and don't stress about it.

NorseHorse · 10th August 2009

+1 .

CAMGRec · 10th August 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5flagsaudio

To quote Michael Corleone "It's not personal, Sonny. It's just business."

Yes, if you take the client back, it's possible they could bail on you again for the next person that comes along with a lower offer. Or maybe they'll remember what happened the last time they bailed on you. Or the entire group could be killed in a freak accident and you'll have no more client. It's pointless to worry about things beyond your control. Take the client back and don't stress about it.

GREAT ADVICE!

I would add, take the client back, but make sure to charge more than you did previously, but slightly less than the company they've been using.

LX3 · 10th August 2009

I agree, I'd probably just accept the work (that is, if I liked doing their work before. I'm surmising, from the fact that you're having to decide one way or another, that you can afford to say no to them).

Do you think it's possible that the outfit you gave the job to didn't intentionally lowball you... they might simply have charged their usual rate? And the client neglected to tell them how much cheaper they were than you...

Unless you discussed it in advance, and they deliberately went in cheaper.

On the occasions that I get talking to another recording company, rates are rarely something they want to discuss, and even when we do, I often suspect they're not telling me the whole story.

Do you ever find that competitors tell you they charge more than they really do? In an effort to make sure that they keep a slight price advantage over you? Although that sort of tactic can backfire...

Anyhow, it's all work, I would just provide my usual top-quality service, stick by my pricing, and see what happens.

26th July 2009	#3
rumleymusic Lives for gear Joined: Jul 2008 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,554	I would suggest the videographer with the higher price regardless of what happened. It will show the client how much things cost in reality and make your services seem more affordable. There is nothing wrong with looking out for #1 in a competitive market. You should never go out of your way to undercut someone else, but in this case I see nothing wrong with not recommending a person who may have less experience in multitrack recording. Remember that your reputation also is reflected on the quality of the work from the people you recommend (and on their business ethics). __________________ Daniel Rumley Rumley Music and Audio Production http://www.rumleymusic.com

27th July 2009	#6
boojum Lives for gear Joined: May 2007 Location: Astoria, OR, US&A Posts: 2,308 1 Review written	I do not loan gear to anyone. The gear is expensive. Why have a hassle about "Well it was working when I was using it. I don't know how it got broken."? I would wind up losing the gear and the relationship. Recommend the better of the two competitors. You don't owe the low-baller any favors. Karma my ass; this is business, not Ashram 101. Kindness is one thing; self-sacrifice is another. That said I am an amateur with some good gear. I do not offer my services any place where a pro would be competing and lose a paying deal on account of what I am doing. First it is unethical and second I am not sure I am as good as a pro. So why disappoint someone who has the money to spend and expects, and is due, a professional job? When I am good enough to bill out I can compete with the pros. That's just my $0.02 __________________ Nov schmoz ka pop.

10th August 2009	#13
Thomas W. Bethe Lives for gear Joined: Jan 2005 Location: Oberlin, Ohio Posts: 3,273 1 Review written	Not to steal this tread...but it seems this is something along the same lines... A couple of years ago we were unable to do a gig for one of our on going clients due to a previous commitment. We recommended another audio company that we knew would do a good job. They did a good job but in the process stole the client from us. It was not that they did a much better job than we normally do but they low balled the price and the client, always being on the lookout for a "better deal" went with them. Soon after the client stopped using us the other company raised their rates and the client called me up and asked if we could start doing their concerts again. I am never sure what to do in such cases and told the client I would get back to them. Any ideas????? I could be Mr. Nice Guy and take the client back but the minute they find someone cheaper they probably would be gone in a flash or I could say no and leave them with the company they went with or some other sound company. Suggestions would be welcomed....Thanks in advance. __________________ -TOM- Thomas W. Bethel Managing Director Acoustik Musik, Ltd. Room with a View Productions Oberlin, OH 44074 www.acoustikmusik.com Doing what you love is freedom. Loving what you do is happiness.

10th August 2009	#14
5flagsaudio Gear nut Joined: Mar 2008 Location: Northwest Florida Posts: 81	To quote Michael Corleone "It's not personal, Sonny. It's just business." Yes, if you take the client back, it's possible they could bail on you again for the next person that comes along with a lower offer. Or maybe they'll remember what happened the last time they bailed on you. Or the entire group could be killed in a freak accident and you'll have no more client. It's pointless to worry about things beyond your control. Take the client back and don't stress about it. __________________ Jeff Jordan Jordan Audio Services

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25th July 2009	#1
JohnDoe Gear interested Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 4 Thread Starter	What would you do? Hello everybody Sorry to be posting this anonymously, but since it is a bit of a sensitive situation, I'd rather my real name not be associated with it. Some one was referred to me to do a recording of a recital. The person asked about video recording, and I informed them that I only do audio and could recommend a couple of videographers if that's what they needed. The person informed me of their budget and (what I did not expect) asked if I would keep the date on hold just in case the videographer(s) was not available. There are two people whom I would normally refer for this sort of thing. One would be out of the stated budget, and so the job would probably bounce right back to me. The other would be priced right on the budget and I am pretty sure he would deliver what this person is looking for. As a result, he would get the work (and whatever repeat business results from it) and I would not. As people, I am on friendly terms with both of these guys. However, the story goes a bit deeper. Unbeknownst to him, the on-budget guy undercut me on a job and cost me a gig a couple of months ago. I found out about it when he dropped me an email asking to borrow some mic's and stands for the date (I said nothing about my knowledge, but offered to loan him some cheap chinese condensers - which he declined). I know he did not do this maliciously - he did it as a favor for the conductor (who is a personal friend of his) and also to test out his new multitrack audio rig. To make life a little more complicated, I think he actually may have initially recommended me for the gig (I seem to remember him asking me about a referral a few months prior to the situation - before he had multitrack capability - though the conductor named one of the players in the orchestra - for whom I have also done a bit of work - as the referring party). In the end, the conductor balked at my price (even though it was heavily discounted) and went with the "free" guy. I understand why it went down as it did, and maybe he even did me a favor by taking a lowball job in less-than-good circumstances, but I have to admit I am still a little sore about it. Also, by doing what he did, he has established himself as a direct competitor on the lower end of the price scale. The current job in question is not a big money job - I could live without it, but it would be great to have the additional business since things are a little slow, and it's always nice to get a new client with the chance for repeat business. I could do the right thing as a person and recommend this person to the guy who will give them what they want at the price they need, or I can do what's right as a business person and grab the gig for myself. Sorry for the length of the post, but what would you do? Karma or cash?

26th July 2009	#4
CAMGRec Gear nut Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 82	Hmm, it sounds like you have a real issue with this guy yet you acknowledge that "Unbeknownst to him," he got the job over you, and that "he did it as a favor for the conductor (who is a personal friend of his)" and "he did not do this maliciously" and you think "he actually may have initially recommended me for the gig." Not only that, but you even claim to "understand why it went down as it did," and you conclude by saying "maybe he even did me a favor by taking a lowball job in less-than-good circumstances." And what have you done so far? you've "said nothing about my knowledge, but offered to loan him some cheap chinese condensers." I know we're all in a cut-throat business and times are really tight right now, but I'm glad I'm not out there competing with you. As far as "Karma or cash" - you said they wanted a video guy and you do audio, so how would you take the gig anyway? If you're capable, take the job. End of story. P.S. - just a recommendation if you're really worried about "Karma"...when that guy called you to borrow some gear, you should have offered him something decent. I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but that's how you get Karma working for you.

8th August 2009	#9
JohnDoe Gear interested Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 4 Thread Starter	Just wanted to let everyone know how it turned out. As expected, the cheaper guy got the gig. I did not follow up to find out how it worked out - perhaps I should. To date, I have not yet gotten a thank you or any acknowledgment at all from him for sending work his way (though I find it interesting that he had no trouble finding my email when he wanted to borrow $6k worth of kit). I don't know how anyone else here does it, but I'll always drop an email or a call to say thanks to someone who refers me for a job - even if the gig doesn't work out. Is this not a common thing to do? Perhpas the next time we meet on a gig he'll mention it, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt till then. However, a good bit of work did come my way shortly thereafter, so I guess the universe smiled on the good deed after all.

9th August 2009	#10
boojum Lives for gear Joined: May 2007 Location: Astoria, OR, US&A Posts: 2,308 1 Review written	Common decency dictates a "thank you" note at the least.

10th August 2009	#15
NorseHorse Lives for gear Joined: Jul 2008 Location: DC Posts: 2,095 2 Reviews written	+1 .

10th August 2009	#17
LX3 Lives for gear Joined: Aug 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,033	I agree, I'd probably just accept the work (that is, if I liked doing their work before. I'm surmising, from the fact that you're having to decide one way or another, that you can afford to say no to them). Do you think it's possible that the outfit you gave the job to didn't intentionally lowball you... they might simply have charged their usual rate? And the client neglected to tell them how much cheaper they were than you... Unless you discussed it in advance, and they deliberately went in cheaper. On the occasions that I get talking to another recording company, rates are rarely something they want to discuss, and even when we do, I often suspect they're not telling me the whole story. Do you ever find that competitors tell you they charge more than they really do? In an effort to make sure that they keep a slight price advantage over you? Although that sort of tactic can backfire... Anyhow, it's all work, I would just provide my usual top-quality service, stick by my pricing, and see what happens.