do subs ever get placed along with delayed speakers?

[audiothings]

people in the the balcony are complaining that they cannot hear enough bass... people in the front rows are saying that there is too much of it.

the producer is asking for subs in the balcony. i have never seen subs in balconies.

in this case... jbl vrx arrays, with only tops in the balcony and the subs placed on the floor at FOH...

what do i not know?

[bishopthomas]

It's not extremely common, but if the situation requires it then it must be done. Although, how much low frequency energy is actually required up there? How are you running the VRX's and where is the low end crossed over? They go down to 80 Hz (assuming you have the 932's), so depending on what type of show you have that should reproduce quite a bit of low frequency. How many subs are on the ground? How are the VRX tops flown in the balcony? The VRX subs are made to rig with the tops, so depending on your situation you might be able to just add the sub on top of the mid/high box.

[Enginearing]

by the looks of it the VRX array is designed to be flown with subs in the array. this would be a much better option as it would throw your bottom end to where you want it.

Its uncommon probably because of the omni nature of most subs. (don't want it coming from behind causing cancellation now do we...) to try and cardioid configure something i would think would take too many boxes. the flown sub as the system is designed will be your best bet.

think JBL have an array calc. somewhere on the site which may help predictions and save time faffing on the gig....

[63hz]

are the delayed vrx on short throw?
having the 3 horns per box they can get a bit bitey in the top end
but yes i have use subs with delays when the gig has called for it
and just because someone else hasn't done it isn't a reason not to try, it may work for you and your venue.

[jude]

Originally Posted by 63hz

...
but yes i have use subs with delays when the gig has called for it

ive had gigs that have called for 4 subs a side on the delay stacks... then again, i guess your not talking about punk or metal shows?

[audiothings]

ok now i have more info and have put the subs at delay position on the mist recent shows.

the subs are from the srx series and cannot be flown, the tops are 12" passive vrx...

this last venue was a 1000 seater hall and there was *absolutely* no space for rigging, to fly even the tops... apart from the fixed seating, additional chairs were occupying every available inch...

so we placed a sub vertically on the side of the stage (in front of the curtain) and two tops on the sub itself... (on each side of the stage, of course). and another sub plus two tops about 50' into the room...

there were people seated inches away from the delay position... the high frequencies were excruciating to those immediately near... so i put a subtractive shelving eq (-3 dB at around 2K) on the delay matrix, and it kind of sorted things out...

all of this was done out of necessity dictated by space constraints... not because i *wanted* to experiment with delayed subs...

there was no place for center fills, so there were seats where there was no direct sound... but the hall did not sound bad by itself, so i guess it was ok...

anyway the shows went off great and sound was quite even and clear....

as an aside... under these circumstances, i cannot take the absolute quality of sound seriously because of how much i have to equalize the headworn omnis to get enough gain before feedback... and then there is reverb and sometimes delay on the headworn mics, which are picking up the sound of the monitors and the hall... so you can imagine...

any suggestions and thoughts welcome... i am mixing six theater performances early next month and i am dreading it... this particular venue has installed sound and they want to use hanging mics and PZMs... a real nightmare, compared to the lesser evil of headworn omnis...

[juanpz]

I've seen subs on balconies every now and again.
I specifically remember flown subs @ HOB in Orlando.

[Jim vanBergen]

Subs are put with delayed systems when the system designer is able to do a proper set of calculations and make sure they have evenly distributed sound system. Are you doing theatre, rock, jazz?

I see more subs in delayed systems for theatre shows where even distribution is more important than LOUD (rock/one-off systems) . Most of my designs that utilize delayed subs have been for theatrical, permanent installations in multi-use halls, or large, distributed systems for classical music.

here are some locations I have used:

1) Rigging subs on the balcony rail
2) putting subs in the underbalcony plenum space
3) putting subs overhead of audience (usually in a lighting truss or followspot position)
4) putting subs in the rearmost box position
5) hiding subs in the rear wall/corner of the back of the seating area

A trick I see used from time to time (more often with line array systems needing delays for rear areas) is to use low power, full-range delay boxes, and shelve off HF and have much more impact in mids and low mids .


Hope this helps.
JvB

[jude]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

here are some locations I have used:

1) Rigging subs on the balcony rail
2) putting subs in the underbalcony plenum space
3) putting subs overhead of audience (usually in a lighting truss or followspot position)
4) putting subs in the rearmost box position
5) hiding subs in the rear wall/corner of the back of the seating area

man, you gotta feel sorry for the spot opperator

[plexisys]

For touring usually not. To much trouble with phase issues. To many odd spaces that cause more problems than adding more low end would help.