Venue Damage - Liability Question

[balanceman]

So I recently recorded a week long seminar for a privately funded foundation in a hall on a university campus. I used pro gaff to tape down my cables in order to eliminate a trip hazard and to protect the cabling. I always use the same brand of tape and have never had a problem in any venue. This time, it pulled up a little bit of the floor's finish with the tape when I loaded out.
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Today, I received the following email:

Hello,
An issue has been brought with me about recording at -- Hall. We have not received an invoice yet, but we are going to be charged for damages to the floor of the hall. We were told that the tape used for the recording caused damages. I have been told that if/when we receive an invoice for this I am supposed to forward it to you. I will let you know more when I find out more.
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What would you do in this situation?
I feel that it is for situations like this that the venue carries insurance.

Also to be noted- both the university and the folks who hired me have MILLIONS of dollars. I have been lucky just to pay my bills doing nothing but audio. I can't afford extra expenses in any way! I have liability insurance, but would hate to have to utilize it.

[NorseHorse]

First thing I would do:

Get in touch with the AV / Production staff from the venue. Find out what type of tape they use. If they use gaff tape and you use gaff tape, you can use that in your refusal to pay (since you are using the "house approved" type of tape). The AV staff might even speak up on your behalf to whomever is giving you a hard time. Gaff tape is the professional standard and if they had special needs, they should have noted that. They surely have had others use gaff tape before.

Make sure:

A. They explain EXACTLY what the damage is.
B. They send you a picture of the damage.
C. They explain how it was caused by your tape.

The person sending you the email might not have even seen the spot they're going to charge you for. Notice how they said "We've been told..." Also, find out just who told them. Good luck. You've got to be ALL OVER THIS if you want to keep your cash.

On the other hand, maybe you should just buy a little finish and clean up the floor? They might LOVE you for it.

EDIT: On the other other hand, perhaps you should ask the person who email you (is that the person who hired you?) for the contact info the person who wants to charge. The person who hired you would probably LOVE to be taken out of the middle-man position. Deal DIRECTLY with whomever has taken issue with you.

[Plush]

When you receive their bill, tear it up. You are not liable for anything.

Wear and tear on premises is part of being a presenter. You did not ever agree to indemnify the presenter.

I am totally serious here. Please call them up and explain that you are not a fool. Don't let them trifle with you.

What a joke!

[matthewd]

We have encountered this and subsequently do have public liability insurance tied in with employers liability so if someone you are working with has an accident themselves or damages the venue, the company is covered. I don't know how it works in your region, but there is some protection in being a limited company too when it comes to personal liability just supposing lets say a sling falls on somebody's head. The cost is not all that high in comparison to the risk - we pay less than £1000 a year.

It came about because we were asked to produce such a certificate before being allowed to work in certain venues. I would say in your case, perhaps they should have asked to see a certificate of insurance, otherwise it may perhaps be fair to say assume the venue covers external contractors although this might be a bit optimistic. If you are not prepared in future to purchase insurance, perhaps a clause on your quotation saying you accept no liability - trouble is, by flagging it up, then people will ask.

I would think the bill might not be all that big in this instance. I'll leave it with you to decide what to do about the bill this time.

Matt

[Indrestudios]

I'm curious, have you delivered their masters to them yet? If not, I'd hold tight until this gets sorted out. It's pretty crappy that they're expending the energy to go after you, the little guy (no offense) for such a repair. I'd liken this to a guest (paid) lecturer coming in and leaving a mark with his coffee cup on the podium. Do you think they'd go after that guy to refinish the podium?

That said, I've had even the best pro gaff tape leave marks depending on any number of factors: heat, humidity, foot traffic, duration of project.

-MC

[aussie_techie]

A reason i use cheap gaff, it comes up easily and leaves nothing behind. Not a cheap gaff that leaves its glue behind of course.

If its some major damage they have a point but if its only small then its all part of wear on a building and something they have to maintain anyway.

You may ant to gently remind them what could of happened if you didnt tape down the cable and how much more they could be up for in liabilities from people tripping. I find that bringing things back to general OH&S is often a good way to go. or start quoting standards at them and most people just get confused and hopefully leave you alone.

[John Willett]

For cables across floors I use a special yellow/black tape that's only sticky at the edges - so no sticky on the cables and is also designed to come up easily and not leave a residue.

But - for your problem - this is what public liability insurance is for.

If you were negligent in using the wrong tape and damaged the floor as a consequence, then you really *are* liable for the damage - unfortunately.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by John Willett

But - for your problem - this is what public liability insurance is for.

Yes - but if this is a private insurance, they will probably refuse to pay for damages caused during professional work...

If you were negligent in using the wrong tape and damaged the floor as a consequence, then you really *are* liable for the damage - unfortunately.

No doubt... Someone in a hall I worked in recently showed me damage caused by a previous recording team - an XLR plug had apparently broken off a tiny bit of the wall while cables were rolled up - they said this was around € 7000,- of damage (or was it 700? Anyway, a fair deal of money...) It's an historic building and all...
I was quite carful after that...

[Thomas W. Bethe]

In our town where we do a lot of recording the fire marshall is somewhat anal and has been known to walk in before the concert starts to check to make sure all the cables are taped down. We normally tape down our cables every time they cross an aisle or egress point. In one of the buildings we typically do recordings in the floor tile is coming up and the glue no longer holds it down securely. If we put any gaffers tape on the floor tile it pulls them up when we remove the tape. We simply pull the tile off and place it back on the floor. We have told the building manager about the problem but so far nothing has been done. The tiles are rubber and so far we have not managed to break one but it is an ongoing problem.

We use good quality gaffers tape (about $15.00 per roll) and it sticks well and comes up easily off most floor surfaces. In one church they had just put down new carpeting and our gaffers tape would not stick to it. We had to use twice the normal amount of gaffers tape before it would stick. When we took up the gaffers tape it left a faint outline on the new carpet. It turned out that the carpeting was full of "fluff" and no one had vacuumed the carpeting since it was put down. We told the church about the problem as soon as we discovered it. We gave them our phone number and told them to call if there was a problem. We never heard from them but the director of the choir we were recording said as soon as they vacuumed the rug the faint outline disappeared.

The only damage we have ever encountered was some paint that came off a wall when we taped the AC power to the wall. When we took off the gaffers tape it pulled a bit of the paint with it. We showed it to the building manager and gave him our phone number. We never heard from him so I assume they were able to touch up the paint.

Most places that are available for rent realize that by the simple act of having people in the hall there maybe some accidental minor damage. They usually are not anal and will usually just fix the problem and let it go. We have gotten into some places that were unusual in construction or furnishings and we always ask what they use to tape cables down and if possible we try and use the same tape from the same supplier so there is no question about the suitability of the tape.

One place we worked had marble floors. We told owner of the hall that we had to tape our cables down and wanted to check with him to see if there were any problems with the gaffers tape we use. He said no and to go ahead and use it. When we took it up you could see faint lines where the polish was dull. We again told the owner of the hall the problem and gave him our phone number but never heard from him so I have to assume that with some cleaner and wax they were able to repair the dullness.

I find it to be a good idea to identify the problem and to tell the hall's owner or manager about the problem so there are no "gray" areas down the road. So far the honesty is the best policy has worked in our favor.

[LX3]

Hmm

Seems to me that if the university are renting out their hall for events, they surely have to expect some wear and tear (within reasonable limits of course)... don't they? If they don't want it damaged, they shouldn't make it available. If the hall happens to be of some sort of historic architectural significance, then they should have explained this to you in advance, so you could take steps to ensure negligible-to-zero impact on the structure. (I guess that wasn't the case.)

Did you see the "finish" coming off as you took the tape up? How bad is the damage? If you couldn't see it happening at the time, how can it be that bad? (unless it was dark when you de-rigged).

I'm a bit of a gaffer nerd. If anything, I find that it's cheap tape that grips like crazy and pulls paint off woodwork etc. I always use the expensive low-tack stuff (e.g. LeMark) wherever possible, if only because it's easier to take up and doesn't leave junk all over my cables... but also because it's less likely to damage surfaces, and sometimes you don't find out that it's going to damage a surface until it's too late. I have higher-grip tape for those few occasions when I really need it to stick, but I rarely find I have to use it.

Is there an agreement for this job that states that the hirer is responsible for any damage to the venue? Find out how much they're talking about for repairs. If it's small, I would suck it up and pay it just to maintain goodwill with the people you're working for. But if not, maybe you should check the contracts and hold your ground if possible, or see if it's covered under somebody's insurance.

As Indre said, everyone tends to pass the blame on to the next guy down the chain, until someone gets fired or sued. It really saddens me that no-one takes responsibility for anything these days... It seems particularly prevalent in the US.

My 2c anyhow.

[talbe1019]

If one of the people in attendence (watching the show) damaged the floor would he send them a bill too?

[big country]

I would make sure the floors were instaled properly

[mixedupsteve]

Make sure you go look at it right away. It might not even be damage caused by you and they can't just fix things and them tell you it's your fault. The floor finish may be bad or failing anyway. I've never seen gaff tape damage anything thats in good shape.

[matt thomas]

I don't know about the law where you are, but I would be surprised if it is substantially different from law that I am familiar with.

If their floor is not up to standard to cope with standard use for the purpose they hire it out for it is not your fault.

When someone hires you their venue for a specific purpose, and you use the venue in a way that is standard for the purpose they hired it for, it is up to them that the venue is suitable. And as using gaffer tape is standard, indeed it is in the interest of safety, then they have in effect agreed that you could use aforementioned gaffer tape.

This is assuming you used a quality tape, and used it in the normal way

Worst case scenario is that they would disagree with you. And in such a case I highly doubt they would want to take it to court.

you should also consider how much you want to keep on their good side.

An above post suggests calling others to ask if they use gaffer tape, especially employees of the venue, this is a good idea too.

hope that helps

narco

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Yes - but if this is a private insurance, they will probably refuse to pay for damages caused during professional work...


No doubt... Someone in a hall I worked in recently showed me damage caused by a previous recording team - an XLR plug had apparently broken off a tiny bit of the wall while cables were rolled up - they said this was around € 7000,- of damage (or was it 700? Anyway, a fair deal of money...) It's an historic building and all...
I was quite carful after that...

This is why I have public liability insurance myself.

I joined BECTU (the broadcast union in the UK) and for an extra (approx.) £24 a year I get £5,000,000 Public Liability Insurance.

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by balanceman

So I recently recorded a week long seminar for a privately funded foundation in a hall on a university campus. I used pro gaff to tape down my cables in order to eliminate a trip hazard and to protect the cabling. I always use the same brand of tape and have never had a problem in any venue. This time, it pulled up a little bit of the floor's finish with the tape when I loaded out.
-------------------------------------------
Today, I received the following email:

Hello,
An issue has been brought with me about recording at -- Hall. We have not received an invoice yet, but we are going to be charged for damages to the floor of the hall. We were told that the tape used for the recording caused damages. I have been told that if/when we receive an invoice for this I am supposed to forward it to you. I will let you know more when I find out more.
------------------------------------------------
What would you do in this situation?
I feel that it is for situations like this that the venue carries insurance.

Also to be noted- both the university and the folks who hired me have MILLIONS of dollars. I have been lucky just to pay my bills doing nothing but audio. I can't afford extra expenses in any way! I have liability insurance, but would hate to have to utilize it.

I agree with most of the posters that, having not been told there was a prohibition to gaff tape on the front end, there should be no problem. I imagine the tape left a mark, probably by removing a bit of wax or polish. That's been my experience... or, as at Coventry Cathedral, where it actually removed grime, revealing a bit of the "true" finish of the floor.

In Rome recently, at Basilica St. Paul's Outside the Walls, I was being really careful about taping down my mic cables... until the cathedral staff put down the power run they had agreed to make for my main position. I was carefully applying the tiniest bits possible of gaff I had brought with me... when they pulled out a roll of (and I'm not joking)... the thinnest 2" paper masking tape imaginable. When the first person to scuff over it on an aisle ripped it to shreds, they came back with (no joke, again) a roll of clear 2" packing tape. Massive amounts of it. I was a bit less apprehensive about my pro gaff from that point on...

On a side note, lots of convention hotels (Gaylord Opryland, for one) refuse to allow ANY tape on carpet, ordering that either all runs be picked, hung and dropped (the in-house riggers make out well on that) or that carpet runner be used. So... I now own about 120' of 2x3, 3x5, and 4x6 rubber backed carpet pieces, as well as about 150' of plastic runner. It all goes out only for large AV gigs... but I do carry 10 or 12 of the carpet pieces rolled up and held with a bungee on nearly every gig.

If someone asks about the tape... I just remind them dealing with it and its residue are a far sight less expensive than dealing with a liability lawsuit... in which case, the $2M Professional Liability policy I've carried for years provides some cover. Never had to try it, though.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by talbe1019

If one of the people in attendence (watching the show) damaged the floor would he send them a bill too?

It is somewhat different. In one case you are a paying customer in the other you are getting paid to do some work in the venue.

[matthewd]

I think it is quite a strong point that had you not used tape, somebody could have fallen and filed a lawsuit against the venue although bearing in mind the way they are reacting, perhaps they would have tried to pin this on you too.

Altogether a nasty business and testimony to the scourge of the legal profession and its sickening no win no fee mentality.

Thanks for the tip about BECTU John - I'll look into that.

Matt

[talbe1019]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

It is somewhat different. In one case you are a paying customer in the other you are getting paid to do some work in the venue.

I understand that...but if you drop a glass bottle, or scrape the floor with a chair the damage is the same. I have to agree with Plush...this would not be negligence, this is normal wear and tear.

[balanceman]

I knew I'd get good perspective from everyone. If only I could use gearslutz opinions as legal fodder in my argument.

I am hoping the bill never comes my way. If it does, I intend to ask for lots of documentation of the damage, 3x repair estimates, etc...

This is the second year I have done this gig. I don't know if it is going on next year or not.
Not sure if I'd get the call again anyway....

I am tending not to worry about it, but it is an annoyance that it would even come back to me...

I would think "normal wear and tear in a public venue" would cover it...

I used fancy gaff tape etc.....

will post here if the time comes (let's hope not!)...

[Remoteness]

I'm coming in a bit late to this discussion, but here's my two cent worth...

I’ve been there and also been on both sides of that situation and it’s never comfortable.
Furthermore, not all gaffer’s tape is the same or acts the same in different environments and such.

That email was written to motivate a response, but how you will handle it is the million dollar question.
There are so many angles you can look at it from, but which one is the right one for your circumstance?

I’m not sure if getting in touch with their A/V department will help you much since it really isn’t about the type of gaffer’s tape used it; it’s about the fact that your tape damaged their floor even if it’s the same brand and model number.

Gaffer’s tape may indeed be the professional standard, but like with anything else, if you damage something (pro or not) someone is liable.

In any event, getting a picture or going by to see the damage is a good starting point.
Having the option to repair the damage yourself or hiring your own team should be addressed if you feel you are responsible.

At first thought it would seem to be your client’s responsibility to deal with it since you were not directly involved with the venue.

I can understand Plush’s post since I have felt that way at times too.
Depending in the situation I either paid the bill or ignored the bill.
The liability question must be answered first – Who is liable and is wear and tear your responsibility?

It’s a open and close case if you were asked to provide a certificate of liability upfront.
You really should discuss this with your client since (IMHO) it’s really on them.
You also want to consider how important future work at this facility is for you and all the ramifications with regard to all this scuttlebutt. You are only as good as your last gig, but if you feel it truly is not your responsibility fight for your rights until the end!

I like how Michael is thinking with regard to this situation…
“Hold the masters and hold tight until it gets sorted out is an excellent plan for sure.”

I also like Tom’s mindset…
“Identify the problem and to tell the hall's owner or manager about the problem so there are no "gray" areas down the road.”

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by balanceman

Also to be noted- both the university and the folks who hired me have MILLIONS of dollars.

The person who hired you has millions of dollars? This is perhaps one reason why the university is charging. When they know the renters have enough money, sometimes the accounting folks attach extra fees more liberally. There is a good chance this isn't really directed at you and is just the university's way of getting a bit more out cha-ching out of their well-endowed guest(s).

Cheers.

[balanceman]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

The person who hired you has millions of dollars? This is perhaps one reason why the university is charging. When they know the renters have enough money, sometimes the accounting folks attach extra fees more liberally. There is a good chance this isn't really directed at you and is just the university's way of getting a bit more out cha-ching out of their well-endowed guest(s).

Cheers.

who, in turn, pass the buck to the broke sound guy!
no one ever became a millionaire giving away their money....

[mixedupsteve]

You might consider this an opportunity to score goodwill. If the damage is minor and your cost is reasonable then pay it or correct it quickly. Make sure both the client and the University knows you took care of it. You'll move up their list of contractors to use. If the bill is alot then just turn it over to your insurance and let them know you've turned it over to the insurance company.

[just.sounds]

IMHO this is a bad choice of flooring for such a venue. Maybe the bill can go to the installer of that floor.

But with communication and a bit of giving and taking from either side things get sorted in the nicest way.

Let us know how it works out
good luck

[Thomas W. Bethe]

We did a recording in a old Catholic church. The place was beautiful and everywhere you looked there was ornate statues and beautiful mosaics and paintings. The ensemble we were recording was in the middle of the church and so all microphone lines had to be brought into the middle of the church. We asked for permission to run our cables over the floor and tape then down. The father told us we would have to sign a forum that would hold us responsible for any damage done to the church. It was a three page contract and I got dizzy reading the first page. There were so many wherefores and whereas clauses that you would have had to have had a degree from Harvard to understand it. I took the contract to the conductor of the ensemble and told her that I could not in all good conscious sign it without consulting with my lawyer so I told her we could not record the concert. She took the document from me, went to the father's office and about five minutes later she came back and said just be careful and just do what you have to do. We did not run into any problems and when we left the father came over to us and said "you are always welcome here and I am sorry about the misunderstanding" and "Your conductor should be a lawyer or a bishop she certainly knows how to get things done her way" and chuckled. I gained a lot of respect for the conductor that day. Sometimes it takes a skillful and strong willed person to get things done.