Live sound / mono or stereo?

[opentune]

There´s a couple of posts around here in which one can read
that the majority of live sound rigs in the US are mono.
I even read that some people prefer that.

Mono? Why would you do that?

Hell, make it stereo! Use the pan pots! Use your reverb units!
Give it some space! Make it happen!

Don´t get me wrong - i´m not talking about crazy panpot orgys,
where the folks on the right side of the venue can´t hear the floor tom.
I´m talking about the small things that can get the mix on a
higher quality level.
Wether it´s a small club or a huge open air - you can always make
use of a stereo rig.

What do you guys think?

[-Noodles-]

Depends on the style of band, a lot of bands sound better in mono.
Gives it more power some think!

I personally think that stereo should be used, lightly, whenever possible,

I never hard pan stuff unless it's keys (basically a dual mono signal) as I want the whole audience to hear all the instruments.

[Alex Specht]

Originally Posted by -Noodles-

as I want the whole audience to hear all the instruments.

It really depends on the venue. If you are in a concert hall, with the first row of seats back far enough from the stage you can do a very good stereo mix. However, something like an outdoor festival with delay speakers, panning doesnt make sense.

We can also do LCR mix with center fills in mono, so that the majority of the house gets the stereo mix, while the people front and center get mono.

Generally, we set up the system in stereo, regardless, but mix accordingly.

If we are strapped for gear, or in a hurry, or for "talking heads" we might setup the rig in mono.

[fifthcircle]

I usually set up all of my sytems to come off the stage as a stereo system. How "stereo" the mix is depends on the venue. Most of the bands I'll mix will get a stereo mix. That said, especially if the venue is assymetric, the mix will not be very wide for the reasons mentioned earlier. Full panning width would be avoided and forces that would usually be panned wide would get say a 9:00 to 3:00 spread. It allows for the space that you gain in a stereo mix, but still allows folks to hear what is going on.

In a symetrical venue or indoors, almost all mixes are stereo to bring the space into the mix and the room.

--Ben

[equallyscrewed]

Depends on the venue.

Smaller venues, yea pan away! It can also help with any phase issues from the stage spilling into the front.

Huge festivals? unlikely to pan far at all! remember that there will proberly be an array of speakers further up the field past the mixing tower so your stereo field is massive. Panning will mean that no one will be hearing the same thing and the emphasis will be different for every person.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by -Noodles-

Depends on the style of band, a lot of bands sound better in mono.
Gives it more power some think!

I personally think that stereo should be used, lightly, whenever possible,

I never hard pan stuff unless it's keys (basically a dual mono signal) as I want the whole audience to hear all the instruments.

I do some guerrilla record work in a small venue out here which runs "straight up" mono or very, very slightly panned channels. The chain's #1 engineer was there last time and he said it just does not work in the small room to run stereo. Of course that screws me on a SBD feed, but he is not running his board for me. He is running it for the audience. Kind of makes for wookie mixes with a strong mono flavor. I try to use just a taste of the SBD feed but of course it will always make for fuzzy imaging.

I learned here that the mix is never done, you just give up on it. I think the trick is to get to "giving up" quicker in each session.

[GZsound]

I have tried stereo mixes and ultimately stick with mono.

It seems that everytime I tried judicious panning..some guy from the right side of the audience would come tell me to turn up the guitar..that I had panned slightly left.

A stereo mix only works for those sitting exactly in the middle..


In my opinion.

[Remoteness]

Size matters with regard to stereo live sound mixing.
Stereo can work very well in small rooms.
Mono works best in large venues.

IMO, everyone should hear the full mix; mono gets that job done.
Not everyone is in the sweet spot seats to take full advantage of a killer stereo mix.

Now, it would be seriously cool if we could send our FOH stereo mix via RF repeater to everyone's iPod w/ RF receiver adaptor.

Imagine how awesome it would be if everyone had IEMs.
Think of the killer audience tracks you would have when your capturing the show.

[aussie_techie]

There is no reason to setup a system in mono these days. You may still run a mono mix but you want to keep independent control of each stack/array.

[Beyersound]

I spent a lot of years mixing big tours in many of the largest venues there are. Stereo was always the way, it is always a benefit, and even more so in very large, ambient, rooms. I spent 14 months on a groundbreaking tour that as far as we knew, was the first high spl, 360 degree stereo, in the round tour. It is now the most common audio configuration in large scale arena type touring. We learned a lot about stereo and audience coverage on that tour. Stereo is a benefit live, just as in the studio, but you have to follow some special guidelines. Panning has to be done a little more carefully. You don't do as much hard panning. For example, if you take the "pan all stereo effects hard left and right" approach, you wind up with a washy mess for the people who sit on the far sides. Being a little more meticulous about spreading them around more helps minimize this effect. One of the other techniques in regard to rock guitars, is to take them in stereo and pan them at approximately 3 and 11 or 9 and 1 o'clock. This keeps some punch and beef in the middle, so everyone on all sides can hear them, and you keep them a little brighter on the sides to give you some image and feel of panorama. The stereo benefits are the usual, keep the instruments off of the vocal, etc, etc. It also helps you to create the larger than life feel that many live engineers seek, I know I do.

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Now, it would be seriously cool if we could send our FOH stereo mix via RF repeater to everyone's iPod w/ RF receiver adaptor.

Imagine how awesome it would be if everyone had IEMs.
Think of the killer audience tracks you would have when your capturing the show.

+1! Nice thought, I have had that one many times myself!

[jude]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Size matters with regard to stereo live sound mixing.
Stereo can work very well in small rooms.
Mono works best in large venues.

i have to disagree to an extent.

mono front fills, sure but the entire PA mixed in mono?!
no on any sho im mixing. sure, some crush to the front just to get spat on/jumped on/assulted in a mosh but many hang back to HEAR the sound.

so mono overheads, all the gtrs comming from exactly the center.... give me a break, we're not in the 50's any more.

im not talking about massive panning, just enought to give the mix some room. its not hard, and i never once have had a complaint about mixing in stereo or even LCR, the same can not be said for shows ive been asked to mix in mono.

you have 2 ears, every member of the crowd has 2 ears, give them a real mix otherwise they are going to walk away from the gig praising the lighting guy, and how many of us want that?!?!?

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by aussie_techie

There is no reason to setup a system in mono these days. You may still run a mono mix but you want to keep independent control of each stack/array.

True; let us call it dual mono if you like.
Independent control is key - I would not think of doing it any other way.

[Remoteness]

I don't know jude; a great mix is still a great mix whether it's mixed in stereo or mono.

Even in the studio or mixing a live performance with audience, I always reference mono when I mix stereo. I do my best to make sure my mixes sound just as good in mono.

Now, let us say your in a ten thousand capacity venue, why should the folks on the right side of the venue hear the stuff you panned to the left (a bit) low in volume than the stuff you're mirroring to the right? Everyone should hear exactly the same thing; shouldn't they?

In a small venue you can have a lot of fun with your stereo mix because for the most part everyone gets to hear the room and not just the speaker cluster aimed at them.

Hey, if it's important for it to sound excellent in stereo at FOH and you happen to be at a facility that lets you setup smack center of the room, well go for it. I always try to seat (stand) as close to FOH as possible, so it's all good for me, but what about everyone else that is not in the sweet spot?

You're right we have two ears, but we all don't set in the center of the room just behind (or in front) of FOH. Sometimes people sit hard right or hard left and their two ears can only listen to what's coming at them in a large venue.

IMHO, a "real mix" is not going to help them hear the balance the same way someone seating in the center seat will hear it.

In any event, mix it like you want it to sound; don't let me or anyone else stop you from doing your thing.

Look at it this way:
The ones sitting far right or left will probably not hear the difference of that stereo mix anyway. Perhaps the folks that work hard at getting those (perfect) center seats are the one you really have to impress.

Originally Posted by jude

i have to disagree to an extent.

mono front fills, sure but the entire PA mixed in mono?!
no on any sho im mixing. sure, some crush to the front just to get spat on/jumped on/assulted in a mosh but many hang back to HEAR the sound.

so mono overheads, all the gtrs comming from exactly the center.... give me a break, we're not in the 50's any more.

im not talking about massive panning, just enought to give the mix some room. its not hard, and i never once have had a complaint about mixing in stereo or even LCR, the same can not be said for shows ive been asked to mix in mono.

you have 2 ears, every member of the crowd has 2 ears, give them a real mix otherwise they are going to walk away from the gig praising the lighting guy, and how many of us want that?!?!?

[mixedupsteve]

If the bulk of the seating is inside the speaker placement in a smallish room then I might use a little panning. The typical house seating arrangement rarely meets this so dual mono or 12 oclock panning is the way it usually ends up.

[big country]

better speakers

[GZsound]

Originally Posted by aussie_techie

There is no reason to setup a system in mono these days. You may still run a mono mix but you want to keep independent control of each stack/array.

I think we are talking about MIXING in stereo...panning, etc.

Not independent control of stacks.

[aussie_techie]

Originally Posted by GZsound

I think we are talking about MIXING in stereo...panning, etc.

Not independent control of stacks.

the OP said

Originally Posted by opentune

the majority of live sound rigs in the US are mono.

Note he said the whole rig, now its appears he was only meaning the mix but you have to make the distinction.

I occasionally find people who think just because the will have a mono mix it would make no difference to setup the whole rig in mono. So from experience i know it is very important to make the distinction.

[c.gymer]

Depends on all sorts of things for me. For example, I was doing sound this past weekend in a 300ish capacity big-top style tent. Bands that had a reasonable stage volume were mixed with a fairly dynamic stereo spread, where as bands who refused to turn down tended to have a slightly messed up spread.

For example, we had a VERY loud hardcore band on who point blank refused to play at a reasonable volume on stage. Their ridiculous 4x12 stacks were on the verge of overpowering our quite respectable HK rig! The result was that to run the rig in mono gave zero clarity, so they needed to be hard paned to clear the centre for the vocals, but panning them to their respective sides actually made it worse! I ended up reversing their positions, so the stage left guitar was coming out of the stage right speaker stack, and the opposite for the stage right guitar. Even though it seems counter productive it worked fairly well.

I tend to pan toms, guitars, bv's, keys, whatever a little bit just to give the lead vocal a clear path down the centre, but it's rare for me to do any hard panning, and if I do then it's to work around a problem that cant be solved without clubbing guitarists.

In the future I am going to implement a no 4x12 policy...

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by aussie_techie

There is no reason to setup a system in mono these days. You may still run a mono mix but you want to keep independent control of each stack/array.

Yup.

I always always mix in mono....

[CAMGRec]

Originally Posted by c.gymer

For example, we had a VERY loud hardcore band on who point blank refused to play at a reasonable volume on stage. Their ridiculous 4x12 stacks were on the verge of overpowering our quite respectable HK rig! The result was that to run the rig in mono gave zero clarity, so they needed to be hard paned to clear the centre for the vocals, but panning them to their respective sides actually made it worse! I ended up reversing their positions, so the stage left guitar was coming out of the stage right speaker stack, and the opposite for the stage right guitar. Even though it seems counter productive it worked fairly well.

Stage volume is definitely a factor when sitting up a mix with panning.

Makes perfect sense to pan a guitar to its opposite side if the 4x12 stacks are already providing plenty of volume on that side of the stage.

[Remoteness]

That's totally true in a small space.
IMO, stage volume is not as much of an issue in large venues and such.

Originally Posted by CAMGRec

Stage volume is definitely a factor when sitting up a mix with panning.

Makes perfect sense to pan a guitar to its opposite side if the 4x12 stacks are already providing plenty of volume on that side of the stage.

[Jim vanBergen]

Well, let's consider the real world:

If you hard pan SL & SR guitars, keys and drum kits; what do you think of 40-50% of your listeners NEVER hearing the other side of the system? Wouldn't they be missing something?

Most people don't design true stereo sound reinforcement systems- which is when each speaker (stack or array) covers the ENTIRE audience from its position to create a true stereo image.

Most systems are designed for a narrow stereo image (it's good if you are in the center) and anyone on the L or R sides gets mono and lives with it.

People who sit house R and house L, especially up front, hear the LEAST of stereo, while paying full price. Is that fair?

Me, I often mix stereo effects, stereo guitars, and stereo drum kits. And some patrons get screwed, to be honest.

This weekend I am planning on providing a large stereo system with mono subs that will be perfect for 7,000 people, and less than ideal for 8,000-15,000 others. Is that fair? It's a free concert, but the GOOD seats get the BEST mix.

I mix what is best for the bulk of the people who cared to get there early or in a decent position.

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by c.gymer

I ended up reversing their positions, so the stage left guitar was coming out of the stage right speaker stack, and the opposite for the stage right guitar. Even though it seems counter productive it worked fairly well.

I've been doing this for years. It works fantastically in small spaces. I'm glad to know someone else has had success with this technique.

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Well, let's consider the real world:

If you hard pan SL & SR guitars, keys and drum kits; what do you think of 40-50% of your listeners NEVER hearing the other side of the system? Wouldn't they be missing something?

Most people don't design true stereo sound reinforcement systems- which is when each speaker (stack or array) covers the ENTIRE audience from its position to create a true stereo image.

Most systems are designed for a narrow stereo image (it's good if you are in the center) and anyone on the L or R sides gets mono and lives with it.

People who sit house R and house L, especially up front, hear the LEAST of stereo, while paying full price. Is that fair?

Me, I often mix stereo effects, stereo guitars, and stereo drum kits. And some patrons get screwed, to be honest.

This weekend I am planning on providing a large stereo system with mono subs that will be perfect for 7,000 people, and less than ideal for 8,000-15,000 others. Is that fair? It's a free concert, but the GOOD seats get the BEST mix.

I mix what is best for the bulk of the people who cared to get there early or in a decent position.

Check out my post #10, I am curious how many slutz actually did, it addresses much of that issue.

[Howie J]

My new job last year put me in charge of a 600 seat auditorium. Small space in most terms, but the room is wired mono. Yamaha LS9, 4 decent EAW speakers for the mains and balcony, two dual 18" EAW subs and the whole damn thing is mono. It probably doesn't matter most of the times. I run HS/student praise bands about every other week, but a little bit of panning choice would be nice. I'm not a hard panner to begin with, but I'd like to have the option.

Howie J

[jude]

Steve, thanks for your reply..

in response most of the shows i mix are in rooms far longer than they are wide so even with a really wide mix there are only a few (usually really messed up people) who miss out on some of the sounds.

with my panning for a typical rock gig it goes something like this

kick center
snare center
hats a bit right
toms panned to suit
overheads panned 9 & 3
gtr left mic 1 hard left, mic 2 hard right
same for gtr 2
bass center vox center

for gtrs i'll use a sm57 and what ever else i can find that i like. that way grt 1's 57 is left and gtr 2's 57 is right (ie where ther are as you look at the stage) the other mic usually eq'd to sound a bit duller fills the space on the other side.

just thought id explain my reasoning a bit more before everyone has a go at me

[bishopthomas]

I find that a lot of people start panning instruments in a way that does not portray their position on stage. Why should drum overheads and toms be panned hard? One rack tom isn't at far stage right while the other is far stage left. The drummer would have to have awfully long arms to play cymbals spread out across the stage. If the keyboards are in stereo rather than panning them hard left and right I will pan hard right and a little left (or center) or vice versa depending on position. Sometimes panning keys doesn't work if the patch is designed with the left hand panned left and right panned right. It's all about recreating what's on stage, and creative panning doesn't always serve that agenda.

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by Beyersound

Check out my post #10, I am curious how many slutz actually did, it addresses much of that issue.

Yeah, I agreed with your comment, but though I added some useful commentary/thought to the process.

I don't always pan hard, but I wanted people to think about it.

I spend plenty of time panning elements to provide support to the side in which is is not supported (putting amp'd guitars on opposite sides from their position so that people hear the instrument, not a hyped stereo version of it. One the things I hate are hard panned keys that are not programmed to sum to mono, as every mix has to be mono compatible.

Ultimately, it's our job to make those decisions each and every day in a new venue. I tend to make similar choices on broadcast mixes (harder stereo as long as it folds/sums to mono well) as that's why I get hired, and the same goes for live, when i make VERY different choices-- for open air venues, with a more mono compatible mix- but again, it all depends on the venue. The mix I make at the Beacon will be different to what I use at MSG and Radio City, as I'm sure yours would, to make appropriate decisions for each location, audience, and content.

I'm sure we all appreciated your comments. I hope we add positive information & influence.

Best wishes,

JvB

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Most people don't design true stereo sound reinforcement systems- which is when each speaker (stack or array) covers the ENTIRE audience from its position to create a true stereo image.

Bingo!

So many of the speaker systems out there are simply not capable of creating stereo for a full venue. I find this to be especially true with all of the line arrays that are out there.

This is not to slam line arrays- they can solve many problems and help the sound of a system a lot. However, you don't get the same kind of coverage from each of your stacks.

One of the most successful arena gigs I was a part of used an L-C-R array of Martin W8 cabinets. They were hung so that each cluster was arrayed out close to 180 degrees. It meant that anywhere in the room that was within the throw of the cabinets got stereo sound. We'd peridically have guest mixers come in who would mono out the system and the sound just collapsed. Same mics and everything (sometimes even the same show), but the sound died.

I agree that if you have a L-R stack that only covers, say 90-110 degrees each, you are going to be missing some of your stereo on the extremes of the venue. In a case like that, I tend to stay stereo, but my pannings are not anywhere near as wide.

--Ben.