My best setup for a string quintet recording?

[Rasmus Faber]

Hey guys

I have a couple of string quintet recording sessions coming up. It would be great to get some input on how to use my gear in the best way. I have some good stuff and some not so good stuff, and I wanna utilize it in the best way.

The room is not big, but well sounding. About 15m2.
Setting of the quintet is 2 violins, 2 violas, and 1 cello.
I'm also maybe looking to make an investment for this recording, so suggestions there are welcomed also.

Mic pre's:
Neve 1073DPA
AEA TRP
Rme FF800 internal pre's

Mics:
Flea 47
Coles 4040
2x Thomann SCT800
2x Thomann RB500
Shure SM7B
4x Shure SM57

I'm interested to try M/S or Blumlein stereo sometime, but I dont have a fig8 mic.. Anyway, I'm not sure this is the right moment to do that, but maybe?

Thanks for any input!

R

[lord_bunny]

Too bad no figure 8's... my first choice is Blumlien or M/S, then spot mics on each instrument (although it would mostly be the stereo pair in the mix)

[Rasmus Faber]

Perhaps my choice of investment should be one good mic with fig8 pattern, that I could use with the Flea 47 for M/S.
Investing in 2 good fig8 mics for Blumlein is a bit strong for my budget at the moment

Unless Blumlein is waaaaayyy better than M/S, but as the room is not very big I guess the difference wouldnt be to big anyway right?

Oh, I forgot to mention some gear
, I also have a Brauner C mic, 2 AKG 451B (stereo paired), and 2 Reddi tube DI boxes (pretty good for the 57s)

[Rasmus Faber]

Ps, I do this in my own studio, but I accidentally put this in the remote forum... Well, as long as someone reads it!

[Recording David]

If you can get the cello on a low riser, no need for any spots at all - you would never spot every instrument in a classical-style recording like this. A stereo pair of omnis is the best thing for this type of recording - often in conjunction with a Jecklin disc.

Edit: if you can't get a riser for the cello, use that Flea 47 to spot the cello

[5flagsaudio]

Originally Posted by Rasmus Faber

Hey guys

I have a couple of string quintet recording sessions coming up. It would be great to get some input on how to use my gear in the best way. I have some good stuff and some not so good stuff, and I wanna utilize it in the best way.

The room is not big, but well sounding. About 15m2.
Setting of the quintet is 2 violins, 2 violas, and 1 cello.
I'm also maybe looking to make an investment for this recording, so suggestions there are welcomed also.

Mic pre's:
Neve 1073DPA
AEA TRP
Rme FF800 internal pre's

Mics:
Flea 47
Coles 4040
2x Thomann SCT800
2x Thomann RB500
Shure SM7B
4x Shure SM57

I'm interested to try M/S or Blumlein stereo sometime, but I dont have a fig8 mic.. Anyway, I'm not sure this is the right moment to do that, but maybe?

Thanks for any input!

R

But you do have a figure of 8. Add a second 4040 for blumlein or pair it with you 47 for M/S.

[Rasmus Faber]

Originally Posted by 5flagsaudio

But you do have a figure of 8. Add a second 4040 for blumlein or pair it with you 47 for M/S.

Thats true, but had an impression that ribbons wouldnt work well for Stereo because of the low gain, maybe I'm wrong here?

Hmm, another 4040 is tempting. Also tried it for close miking a solo cello before with wonderful results!

Sorry, what exactly would such a low riser look like?

Also, what is a Jecklin disc?

Thanks!

[Recording David]

^^ The riser is simply a wooden block about 6" high for the cellist to sit on. It means he's slightly closer to the mics, so he's better matched to the violins & viola in the recording balance. Have a look here: piano trio mikage on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

A Jecklin disk can be seen here: Optimum Stereo Signal Recording with the Jecklin Disk

It improves stereo imaging when a pair of HF lift omnis are used.

[Recording David]

Originally Posted by Rasmus Faber

Thats true, but had an impression that ribbons wouldnt work well for Stereo because of the low gain, maybe I'm wrong here?

Ribbons in Blumlein (i.e. stereo) sound fantastic under the right circumstances - if you use them with a suitable preamp (and I see you have TRP) there should be no problem.

[mathieujm]

Originally Posted by Recording David

A Jecklin disk can be seen here: Optimum Stereo Signal Recording with the Jecklin Disk

It improves stereo imaging when a pair of HF lift omnis are used.

I doubt distant omnis even with a Jecklin disk will be the best way in a so small room.
More directionnal setups will be better to get less reflections from the walls.

JMM

[Rasmus Faber]

Originally Posted by Recording David

^^ The riser is simply a wooden block about 6" high for the cellist to sit on. It means he's slightly closer to the mics, so he's better matched to the violins & viola in the recording balance. Have a look here: piano trio mikage on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
A Jecklin disk can be seen here: Optimum Stereo Signal Recording with the Jecklin Disk
It improves stereo imaging when a pair of HF lift omnis are used.

Thats very interesting! I suppose that means you're suggesting I mic the ensemble from the middle of the room and above?
I really never thought of doing that, but rather micing it at ear level, in front of the ensemble (cause thats where I usually hear them). But maybe I get better result micing from above? If so, how should an MS or Blumlein be setup? Maybe that setting is just for using a jecklin disk like that..?

Also, I have the ability to change the room sound from mildly reflective to damped, but flipping walls screens. Which would you recommend?
(could of course try it out for an A/B, but its a hassle flipping those screens when the room is full of musicians )

[_Morph_]

Originally Posted by Rasmus Faber

I really never thought of doing that, but rather micing it at ear level, in front of the ensemble (cause thats where I usually hear them). But maybe I get better result micing from above? If so, how should an MS or Blumlein be setup? Maybe that setting is just for using a jecklin disk like that..?

Strings upward radiation is more balanced, which is why a higher microphone position will usually yield better results.

If I were you, I'd start with the Flea and the Coles as an MS pair, and spot mic the soloists with the cardioid condensers.

[jnorman]

I would use a single ORTF pair of nice cardioid SDCs about 10 feet out and 7 feet up. I dont think I would use any spot mics for this.

[Rasmus Faber]

I should have obviously mentioned this, but the recording is an overdub session for a jazz piano trio recording.
One track will be clean quintet on top of the piano trio, the other one many string overdubs to sound lush.

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by Recording David

Edit: if you can't get a riser for the cello, use that Flea 47 to spot the cello

Not sure this is a good idea. Did you listen to the Cello+organ clips available from FLEA web site? I much prefer the FLEA 50 to the FLEA 47 here. The nose, for which U47 is famous, is not well suited to the cello in my taste. Nonetheless, I've no doubt that the FLEA 47 is a great mic. And with a bit of EQ, you may be right.

[Rasmus Faber]

I've used the Coles 4040 to spot the cello before, with absolutely beautiful results! Just the way I want it with a bit of EQ.
Very warm and romantic tone.

[Daniel Stark]

"I would use a single ORTF pair of nice cardioid SDCs about 10 feet out and 7 feet up. I dont think I would use any spot mics for this."

I think this will lead to a "Bingo" moment in this scenario.

[Rasmus Faber]

Originally Posted by Daniel Stark

"I would use a single ORTF pair of nice cardioid SDCs about 10 feet out and 7 feet up. I dont think I would use any spot mics for this."

I think this will lead to a "Bingo" moment in this scenario.

I can do 7 feet up, however the room is not big enough for 10 feet out, more like 7 feet out, but I'll try. Would having those mics pretty close to the wall behind them have a negative effect?

Also, apologize if this is a stupid question, but what does SDC stand for?

Thanks /Rasmus

[didier.brest]

Small Diaphragm Condenser

[Daniel Stark]

Yes--- depending on the material of the wall and the polar pattern the reflections may be an issue.

I think the advantage of small diaphragm for this app is the higher resonant frequency of the capsule, as violins get high in the range the tone will be more even. Please correct me if I am off base here.

[jnorman]

rasmus - since the ORTF setup uses cardioid pattern mics, you should get adequate rejection from reflections off a rear wall, but you can dampen that some if needed by hanging a moving blanket behind the mics to help kill high freq ringy stuff. 7 feet out will probably work okay, but you may need to tighten up how closely the players arrange themselves - you dont want them outside the mic angle.

[7rojo7]

If you have 2 Brauners then use them in ORTF, Coles on the Cello POINTED AT THE BRIDGE from a about 3-4 ft away
if it's for overdub, then just spot every section, they'll need the flexibility to mix it
Then
Coles on the violins, Flea on the violas and Brauner on the cello

[Rasmus Faber]

Thank you!

Since I dont have 2 Brauners, my option is to use the AKG 451 Bs for ORTF, or the Tbone SCT800. I'm not too keen on using the SCT800s, and the AKG sounds really nice on strings, but sometimes I find that they are too directional, and I'm afraid they might "miss" something that is closer to the centre while micing in ORTF. I guess I should probably try to position the players so they are all well within the 110 degree angle...

Got lots of different things to try out now!

[mathieujm]

Originally Posted by Rasmus Faber

Thank you!

Since I dont have 2 Brauners, my option is to use the AKG 451 Bs for ORTF, or the Tbone SCT800. I'm not too keen on using the SCT800s, and the AKG sounds really nice on strings, but sometimes I find that they are too directional, and I'm afraid they might "miss" something that is closer to the centre while micing in ORTF. I guess I should probably try to position the players so they are all well within the 110 degree angle...

You are not obliged to use the "true" ORTF . ORTF setup was studied with Schoeps mk4. If the directivity of your own mics is different, you should adjust the setup. So if you have a hole in the middle, you should reduce the angle of the setup (or move the musicians).

Then do you know that with the ORTF setup, the stereophonic recording angle is only of 95° ? It's why to use real ORTF, you should have great cardios with a smoth response at +/- 60°. Lastly, to use ORTF you should have enough distance to put all the musician in a 95° triangle from the mics.

You should have a look here to see all the important parameters of each mic setup.

JMM

[Rasmus Faber]

Interesting! And I am very grateful for all the help here, thanks for helping me to improve!

Dont know what you guys think about this, but I tried another stereo technique on occasions, with, to my ears, pretty nice results.
I used my AKGs in an x/y setting, then letting the Brauner sticking up in the middle, just behind the crossing point of the AKGs. I did this pretty much just as en experimentation, but ended up sounding so good that I tried it out on a lot of sessions, recording various things. I didnt seem to get a lot of phase issues with this technique..

I wonder how it would sound with the Brauner in the center of an ORTF setup using the AKGs..? Phase problems? Guess I could try.

[7rojo7]

This is what I do most of the time, but my center mic is an omni.
for overdubs, I would spot mic everything, 1 for violins, 1 for violas and 1 for the cello. you'll need the isolation to mix the parts. as nice as some things sound, they won't cut through a mix
don't close mic them, just spread them out a little and get good levels on each section