What goes here? -- this week's preamp thread

[David Rick]

Nature abhors a vacuum, and Gearslutz abhore empty rack spaces. I've been thinking about filling this one with some kind of "color" preamp. It seems like maybe I should have something Neve-ish in the rack, but I can't decide.

On the one hand, I think that's an interesting sound and one I've sometimes wished I had available for vocal tracking. On the other hand, I have no idea whether it would be of any use in the bulk of my work, which is classical location stuff.

Another possibility would be to get a Forssell SMP-2, but I've already got a lot of clean channels available: Besides the four channels of Millennia shown here, there's another eight in my second rack, plus eight channels of the preamp built into the Prism Orpheus. So I'm wanting some kind of color piece that's useful in the way the Pacifica can be useful. I'm not wanting something that's got so much of its own sound that it doesn't respect the instrument it's recording.

Non-negotiable requirements: It must be a one rack space stereo (or more) preamp with 48V phantom. It must have a built-in power supply -- no bricks or wall warts. It must be built to withstand the rigors of being moved -- no hothouse flower tube gear need apply.

One Neve-family candidate that meets those requirements is the Aurora GTQ2. But the question remains: Would I use it often enough on location to justify hauling it around, or would it be used only for the occasional vocal overdub?

And if not the GTQ2, then what?

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

[mixedupsteve]

Mercenary Audio - Great River MP-2NV Mercenary Edition Dual Channel Mic Pre/DI

I've got one channel and it's sweet!

[RobAnderson]

It's not Neve-ish in color, but what about an API 3124?

They have enough color to be different, but can still respect the sound of the instrument, four channels in one rack space and if you get the "M" version, you have a nice small mixer combo.

To my ear, they make a very nice combination with Schoeps.

[Plush]

It's very clear that you require the d.a.v. electronics Broadhurst Gardens #1U.

Please do give in to the urge for incredible sound. None better, many more expensive.

Endorsed!

[Mazo Audio]

Fun Thread. I put my vote in for Flamingo. Very musical, the option to add some color, excellent metering, and pretty green knobs.

[Chris Wilson]

If I were in the market for a micpre complying to the criteria listed, I would call Nathan and audition Atlas Pro Audio's new Juggernaut Twin.

Between the selectable impedance, the multiple input and output transformers, and whatever a FAT switch is, I imagine one could get all kinds of subtle tones that are still perfectly suited to classical music. I really like the dual XLR outs on the unit. It's such a simple and practical idea, I really wish my preamps had those. Recording to two sources would a lot simpler. People seemed to love the 500 series model, so I imagine this unit is pretty stellar as well.

APA - Juggernaut Twin NOW SHIPPING!, Juggernaut 500 series, Revolver, Blank Panels - Call Us US Toll Free @ 1.866.235.0953, Ph. 813.746.4058

[Jim vanBergen]

Hey David,

I love my GTQ2-Mk3, but I would also consider the Daking Pre IV, the Wunder PAR IV, and the RND Portico 5012. Oops, the 5012 uses a wall wart PSU. Color is good!

Hope these thoughts help.

[fifthcircle]

My "color" rack that I bring into the field consists of a Pacifica, a DAV BG2 and an API A2D (312 pre). That combination of preamps works really well together on various gigs. I'll use the Pacifica for mains, DAV for flanks and API for various soloists and places where color works well.

I was was redoing it, I'd probbably grab a 4 channel colored pre instead of the current API. The 3124 would certainly be high on the list. A number of the pres the Jim just mentioned would be as well (my racks are only 3U so I have to keep things small)

--Ben

[edwinhurwitz]

Boy, it would be great if you could get two Seventh Circle N72s into a single rack space! I've had those and the API 3124+ and loved them both (the latter is instant great drums), but for overall flexibility would probably go with the N72 style sound.

Edwin

[NathanEldred]

Originally Posted by Chris Wilson

If I were in the market for a micpre complying to the criteria listed, I would call Nathan and audition Atlas Pro Audio's new Juggernaut Twin.

Between the selectable impedance, the multiple input and output transformers, and whatever a FAT switch is, I imagine one could get all kinds of subtle tones that are still perfectly suited to classical music. I really like the dual XLR outs on the unit. It's such a simple and practical idea, I really wish my preamps had those. Recording to two sources would a lot simpler. People seemed to love the 500 series model, so I imagine this unit is pretty stellar as well.

APA - Juggernaut Twin NOW SHIPPING!, Juggernaut 500 series, Revolver, Blank Panels - Call Us US Toll Free @ 1.866.235.0953, Ph. 813.746.4058

Juggernaut can work well for classical or dirty rock and roll or anywhere in between.

[David Rick]

Thanks everyone -- lots of interesting suggestions here! I'd love to hear people's take on what these different preamps are best at. Ben has already provided some guidance based on his experience. Anyone else?

David

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

To my ear, they make a very nice combination with Schoeps.

I second that. I often use my Schoeps with the 3124 and love that combo on all kinds of acoustic instruments.

[edwinhurwitz]

Originally Posted by Rick Sutton

I second that. I often use my Schoeps with the 3124 and love that combo on all kinds of acoustic instruments.

Interesting. In what context (ie. folk, bluegrass, classical?). I tried my 3124+ with acoustic instruments in a folk/bluegrass context and wasn't really that happy with it. I preferred my 7th Circle and Grace pres in those areas. Of course, not being an owner of Schoeps might have something to do with it.

Edwin

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by edwinhurwitz

Interesting. In what context (ie. folk, bluegrass, classical?). I tried my 3124+ with acoustic instruments in a folk/bluegrass context and wasn't really that happy with it. I preferred my 7th Circle and Grace pres in those areas. Of course, not being an owner of Schoeps might have something to do with it.

Edwin

Folk/bluegrass/acoustic instrumental. Around here it really isn't all traditional but kinda acoustic/folk/progressive? Yup. just used that combo (Schoeps/3124) on acoustic guitar overdubs on a project yesterday. I also find that the 3124 and my C24 are beautiful on mandolin. I take 8 channels of 3124 out on acoustic inst remotes, often coupled with KM84's and I could't be happier with everything from mando to drums to stand up bass. I tend to like a little iron in my sound. Out of the 20 channels of outboard pres I have, 18 are transformer coupled, the exception is the Forssell. Actually I find the Schoeps combined with the Forssell too clean/boring for me! But put a clean pre like a Forssell with a mic with some color and I'm happy. We all have different tastes, I find Grace to be boring.....but I'm certainly not the final arbiter, just know what makes ME happy! Cheers,
Rick

[fifthcircle]

I will say that the one issue with the API pres is that the front to back imaging isn't very good.

I don't expect them to act like my Grace pres (where I can hear clearly 20+ feet away). But when I've used them for simple things like an instrument and piano, the piano gets a more distant sound. The front source is beautiful, but I find that the more distant things lack a bit. This is not the case with my Pacifica.

Because of this, the API is used for spot mics. It works beautifully for that and I'm thrilled that I own it. I most recently used it for vocal mics with Sennheiser 8040 mics for a big classical festival and it sounded great. I'm still happy that I have it, it just didn't give me what I had originally expected to get.

-Ben

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

I will say that the one issue with the API pres is that the front to back imaging isn't very good.

I don't expect them to act like my Grace pres (where I can hear clearly 20+ feet away). But when I've used them for simple things like an instrument and piano, the piano gets a more distant sound. The front source is beautiful, but I find that the more distant things lack a bit. This is not the case with my Pacifica.

Because of this, the API is used for spot mics. It works beautifully for that and I'm thrilled that I own it. I most recently used it for vocal mics with Sennheiser 8040 mics for a big classical festival and it sounded great. I'm still happy that I have it, it just didn't give me what I had originally expected to get.

-Ben

As usual, very interesting observations from Ben. I come from a more "pop" background and tend to mic individual instruments more than sections or groups. Could be why I like API pre's so much. When I recently needed to record a more distant source I also found the Pacifica to have a more open sound and swapped it in for the API. Different horses for different courses!

[Jim vanBergen]

I like the Aurora or RND 5012 Neve sound on stereo pairs as well as for lead instrumentation when I want little color and not a clinical neutrality, expecially for strings or winds. I think the Daking is very similar to API in the forward mids, (it always feels a little "front") so I'd use that for a featured instrument. In the world of rock music, API is a quick go-to for guitars and drums, but they work equally well for many other types or styles (for example, tambura in Indian music, or a tabla when they are featured; fiddle or electric violin that needs punch in a country or rock mix, or clarinet in a big band.)

Often for me it's a choice of what do I either want to treat specially, or to trust the preamp to do perfectly without a change of placement or EQ. I've recently used a Neve for dobro in a live mic, and selected my GTQ for accordion because I knew I could use the EQ to get the tone I wanted when the mic placement during a live recording was not giving me what I desired. I am quick to put lead vocals on the GTQ because I can trust the preamp to roll gently with dynamic swings and the EQ to take subtle adjustments that add sheen to a track. It's so much about choosing a paint brush and using a technique...

The funny thing is, any one of us could probably get very different, but very good versions of the same event using all of any one high end mic preamp- all API, all Neve style, all Grace, all Millenia, all Forsell, all GML, all Pacifica, all (your favorite here) etc- and like what they do because of the small bits of character that we love about how they reproduce something. If you HAVE 48 channels of API available, or Wunder, or Daking, you'd use it, no question. If you have nothing but 48 ch of Millenia (oh no!) would you still track a rock band with it? I bet the answer is yes!

JvB

[RobAnderson]

Interesting. In what context (ie. folk, bluegrass, classical?). I tried my 3124+ with acoustic instruments in a folk/bluegrass context and wasn't really that happy with it. I preferred my 7th Circle and Grace pres in those areas. Of course, not being an owner of Schoeps might have something to do with it.

Edwin

I've used it in some chamber music sessions, solo piano, choir, jazz recordings.

It really does have something to do with the mic being used - there is just something about the API that complements the Schoeps nicely.

I also very much like the Hardy M-2, but it does not have the "colorful" characteristic that Mr. Rick seems to be looking for.

[eastfoldpicker]

Vintage Design DMP

[David Rick]

Originally Posted by Plush

It's very clear that you require the d.a.v. electronics Broadhurst Gardens #1U.

Please do give in to the urge for incredible sound. None better, many more expensive.

Endorsed!

Right on cue, Plush! I really should try one of these DAV preamps sometime to see what the fuss is about. They certainly have a vocal contingent (pun intended) here on the Remote forum. But it seems they don't have distribution here, so about the only way to try one is to buy one. And the web site doesn't even say what they cost. Strange way to run a business.

David

[David Rick]

Originally Posted by NathanEldred

Juggernaut can work well for classical or dirty rock and roll or anywhere in between.

This is an intriguing design. I like the idea better than the "one trick pony" preamp I was originally thinking about.

I have to admit that I didn't pay any attention to the Juggernaut when it was first released. It seems like anyone who can solder is making a 500-series mic preamp. But after reading up on the Twin, I found out the designer is Tim Farrant, of Buzz Audio. OK, now you've got my attention, Nathan.

Since 99% of my applications are stereo, I'm wondering how the gain tracking on the JT is from side to side. That's a weak point of my Pacifica. Everything else in my rack has stepped gain switches.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by David Rick

Right on cue, Plush! I really should try one of these DAV preamps sometime to see what the fuss is about. They certainly have a vocal contingent (pun intended) here on the Remote forum. But it seems they don't have distribution here, so about the only way to try one is to buy one. And the web site doesn't even say what they cost. Strange way to run a business.

David

BG No 1 costs 760
BG No 1U costs 890
BG No 2 costs 1440
BG No 3 costs 1680
BG No 4 costs 2050
BG No 5 costs 1200
BG No 6 costs 800
BG No 7 costs 890
BG No 8 costs 2250
BG No 9 costs 750
BG 501 costs 420
all amps work with 115v 60Hz

All prices in U.S dollars, prices include shipping and U.S. import duty .
the easiest and cheapest way to pay is with paypal
the account is mick@davelectronics.com
or you could send a dollar cheque

[NathanEldred]

Originally Posted by David Rick

I have to admit that I didn't pay any attention to the Juggernaut when it was first released. It seems like anyone who can solder is making a 500-series mic preamp. But after reading up on the Twin, I found out the designer is Tim Farrant, of Buzz Audio. OK, now you've got my attention, Nathan.

If it wasn't Tim designing we wouldn't have done it, he's truly a genius, and the Juggernaut is different than what he is doing with Buzz so it's a nice complement. The Juggernaut 500 was crammed with as many features as could physically be fit onto a single slot 500 card. The Juggernaut Twin (the big brother to the Jugg 500) has more physical room being 1ru fully rackmountable, and has more features than the 500 version that many people requested along with my own experiences. Once you experience it, I think you'll realize how nice and convenient it is to have a preamp that can go from huge and full range with tons of detail, to being a sound that could have come out of the early 70's that's more colored, soft and forward with many many settings in between the two extremes.

[fifthcircle]

I really like my DAV BG2. I find that it is transparent, but a bit softer than Millennia and Grace which can get a bit of a hard sound. The sound compliments my more colored pres in that rack (the Pacifica and API).

My only issue with it is when I feed it into a mic-level split. When I bring pres to the PA gigs that I do, I have to go through a split. These preamps *do not* like the impedance. I had major issues with motorboating when I did this. That being said, the problem was fixed by making a set of output cables that had resistors in them. I get a couple dB of insertion loss, but that is more than made up with the sonic benefit of not running mic signals for 300+ feet.

--Ben

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

I really like my DAV BG2. I find that it is transparent, but a bit softer than Millennia and Grace which can get a bit of a hard sound. The sound compliments my more colored pres in that rack (the Pacifica and API).

My only issue with it is when I feed it into a mic-level split. When I bring pres to the PA gigs that I do, I have to go through a split. These preamps *do not* like the impedance. I had major issues with motorboating when I did this. That being said, the problem was fixed by making a set of output cables that had resistors in them. I get a couple dB of insertion loss, but that is more than made up with the sonic benefit of not running mic signals for 300+ feet.

--Ben

Reminds me that one of the (many) reasons I prefer to take pres like API and Pacifica on remotes is I feel just a little safer with transformers than transformerless circuits when I'm at the mercy of difficult conditions.

[John Willett]

All you need for the ultimate rack is a Focusrite Red 0

[voidtunes]

+1 for great river pre

[Roland]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

I will say that the one issue with the API pres is that the front to back imaging isn't very good.

I don't expect them to act like my Grace pres (where I can hear clearly 20+ feet away). But when I've used them for simple things like an instrument and piano, the piano gets a more distant sound. The front source is beautiful, but I find that the more distant things lack a bit. This is not the case with my Pacifica.

Because of this, the API is used for spot mics. It works beautifully for that and I'm thrilled that I own it. I most recently used it for vocal mics with Sennheiser 8040 mics for a big classical festival and it sounded great. I'm still happy that I have it, it just didn't give me what I had originally expected to get.

-Ben

This probably means that the Grace has very high resolution and a good phase/frequency response with a good noise floor. For me the API's are a good rock n roll pre, possibly not what I would use for classical work.

Regards


Roland

[fifthcircle]

The characteristic of the Grace that gives you such great front to back imaging also has given me problems in the past. When I record an orchestra, I want to hear an ensemble. With the grace, I tend to hear every instrument and that doesn't do much for an ensemble sound.

I have similar issues with my Sanken mics. Wonderfully clear with an almost crystaline top end. I've pulled them down as a main pair too many times because I can hear everything that I do not want to hear.

API pres are fantastic for rock, but I find them also equally good for classical uses. The issue is that they aren't necessarily appropriate for main pair use. They are quite flattering for other instruments and sources, though. I love them especially for vocal spot mics (concerto, etc.. use for orchestras).

--Ben

[David Rick]

Ben's description of how different preamps exhibit different "depths of field" is interesting. The engineer in me wants to know why! My guess is that it has to do with the impulse response of the preamp.

The preamp he mentions as having a particularly shallow depth of field (API) is transformer-based. I'll bet if we measured the impulse response of this design, we'd find it was pretty long, probably because of transformer ringing. (Getting transformers not to ring is quite a design exercise. Jensen designs theirs for a Bessel response, which has optimal time characteristics. But to acheive that, you have to load them just right.)

At the other end, we have the Grace. This is a transformerless design, and is built with high-bandwidth parts originally intended for video use. I'll bet if you measure the impulse response of this preamp, it will be closer to Dirac than anything else you can find.

Under this hypothesis, when the API is used to record an orchestra, sound from the nearest players excites some ringing which then partially masks the (later) sound from players who are farther away. The Grace does not do this, so the farther players are not discriminated against.

Going further out on a limb, when engineers and producers say that a particular preamp sounds "big", they may actually be saying that it sounds "long"!

Finally, fooling around with the impedance seen by a microphone may generate similar effects if the mic output is transformer-coupled.

Can anyone support this hypothesis with measurements?

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording