Best Rack Mixer for sending drum submix to FOH

[Tibbon]

I'm putting together a neat electronic/acoustic hybrid drumkit. I'll probably end up with 10-15 source lines (some coming from micing the drumkit, others from synths, samplers and sequencers). Most clubs are going to hate having 15 sources coming from the kit and honestly I don't trust them so well to know what's coming up from a sequencer and do anything even semi-right with it.

I'm thinking of having a rack of gear that I pre-mix/process/sequence/automate everything with and then send the FOH a few busses and tell them initially to set everything flat and then take it from there for balance issues. Also this way if I play a smaller venue that can't really handle much I can just send them a stereo feed that's already mixed.

I'm probably dealing with:

Kick (electronic)
Snare (Acoustic, top, SM57)
Snare (electronic from trigger on snare)
3 toms (electronic)
OH L (real cymbals, unsure which mics so far)
OH R
S-5000 (main kick/snare/etc samples for triggers)
Compressor for snare
Stereo comp for OHs
Some guitar pedals/filters
Reverb/Delay unit (MPX-1 or Kurz Rumor perhaps?)


While I'd LOVE a Venue system or something to interface with, I can't afford that- at all. The older Roland VM-7100 system looks really compelling. They can be had for under $1000ish, have automation, plenty of inputs, 8 outputs standard, etc. I used to use a Mackie LM-3204 for keyboards, but it doesn't have enough outputs to give the house stuff to mess with. Figuring the house needs:

-Kick/low end stuff
-Snare
-Toms (could be mono)
-OHs
-Stereo bus of effects/loops
-Click (to send to other musicians IEMs/monitors)

So that's 8 outputs...

Any thoughts as to what mixer might help handle this best? I'd prefer to keep it rackmounted. While I normally don't love digital mixers, there's some pretty strong advantages to having a digital mixer with scene memory and maybe some basic EQ automation. Even better if it has switchable Aux loops so I can send stuff selectively through effects/filters in realtime.

thoughts? advice? Doing electronic/industrial/rock stuff. Think NIN/Garbage/etc

[surflounge]

could this work?

SM 82S Splitter Mixer

[drBill]

Pricey, but absolutely worth it. Can be configured with stereo modules, dual mono's, groups, matrix, pre's/no pre's, etc.. Great EQ, tons of headroom, punchy sound.

D&R Vision Rackmount

This one has 10 Mono Deluxe inputs (w/ pre's and 4 band sweepable EQ), 1 Stereo Deluxe module, one DUAL Group module, and the masters, but it can be configured many different ways. The Mono modules have a "direct out" if you don't need to subgroup with a gain independant of the main fader. Super versatile.





thumbsupthumbsup

[Tibbon]

I think what I really want ends up being a Speck XtraMix (Speck Electronics - Xtramix Line Mixer) plus something like a Rocktron Patchmate to switch effects and pedals... yet that's SUPER pricy and there's gotta be something more reasonable.

Definitely needs 8 outputs from busses, and I'd love to be able to switch/reroute effects on the fly easily (some midi footpedal would make this easy with some digital mixer that has scenes). I'm thinking it would be fun to have different song sections occasionally have slightly different sounds/processing (would potentially use a sequencer on my computer or in the S5000 to switch patches in the song)

[surflounge]

what about:

API 8MX2 ATI's powerful 8 X 2 X 8 Mixer / Mic Pre

I'm looking for the same thing

[travisbrown]

I'd use Hear Technologies MixBack and use the 12 sends as your busses.

[Spiritworks]

APB Dynasonics Pro Rack Housethumbsup

[synthoid]

I did a show last saturday with a similar set of requirements (electronic music), using Ableton Live running on a Macbook Pro with a buffer size of 32 samples @ 48KHz. First time I've tried this at a live show; previously we were sending a huge number of inputs to the FOH console and both the PA mix and the monitor mixes were nightmares.

Ableton is a good solid mixer, and of course it can do all kinds of other fancy stuff besides. I had compressors and limiters and EQs running on various channels, vocal effects, even a software electric piano that I played from a MIDI controller, all kinds of stuff.

If you're like me you're probably very leery of computers on stage but honestly it's worth at least looking into.

I also wish I could rackmount it. The physical part of the laptop is a pain in the neck -- it's just not designed for stage use.

-synthoid

[Tibbon]

Originally Posted by synthoid

I did a show last saturday with a similar set of requirements (electronic music), using Ableton Live running on a Macbook Pro with a buffer size of 32 samples @ 48KHz. First time I've tried this at a live show; previously we were sending a huge number of inputs to the FOH console and both the PA mix and the monitor mixes were nightmares.

Ableton is a good solid mixer, and of course it can do all kinds of other fancy stuff besides. I had compressors and limiters and EQs running on various channels, vocal effects, even a software electric piano that I played from a MIDI controller, all kinds of stuff.

If you're like me you're probably very leery of computers on stage but honestly it's worth at least looking into.

I also wish I could rackmount it. The physical part of the laptop is a pain in the neck -- it's just not designed for stage use.

-synthoid

I'm not totally freaked out by a computer on stage, but I've had them crash and do weird stuff at the most inopportune times. I dunno how I manage to crash MAX/MSP so often, but it does go down at times. I haven't used a laptop live much since around 1999 when I was using it as a sampler before I got an S5000.

A computer definitely might come into the mix at some point. The problem is if I have a computer, I want two and have them running synced for instant fallover in case of a crash (I heard Peter Gabriel had a neat rig setup to auto-switch if Logic crashed on one)

[Tibbon]

Originally Posted by surflounge

what about:

API 8MX2 ATI's powerful 8 X 2 X 8 Mixer / Mic Pre

I'm looking for the same thing

A bit too expensive, but AWESOME for what they are able to fit in a single space, and i'm sure it sounds great.

APB Dynasonics Pro Rack House

Hmm, if I can find one used that looks amazing. Minus some digital recall crap that's pretty much perfect. I was looking at the old Mackie 1604's, but they dont' have enough outputs for me unless I do the thing of using the insert as a unbalanced out...

[Tibbon]

Am I just thinking about this problem wrong? Maybe I don't need to send the FOH as much as I'm thinking?

One cool thing if I did get a Roland VM7100 is that (in theory) the FOH person could have my console beside him, and I'd have the brain in my rack and just a long ethernet cable between the two. Not that I'd trust most of them to run it, but it would work...

Any horrid reviews/thoughts on the Roland for this purpose?

[synthoid]

I think it's really difficult to find the right balance between sending FOH too much and too little, especially for electronic music where many of the things you're sending them are unfamiliar to them or are changing a lot during the show. Send too much and you're certain to get a bad mix. It's impossible for a FOH engineer that doesn't follow your show all the time to balance a bunch of new sounds and keep up with scene changes. Too little, and the balances are all wrong for the venue, and the FOH engineer is reduced to using EQ and comp to fix it.

I've done a similar breakout of drums (kick/snare/hats/loops/click), but I've also just sent them DRUMS already mixed, so they have just a half-dozen inputs or so to manage. Tell you the truth, I think the premixed drums work better so long as you have time to soundcheck the drum mix and have some confidence in how the drum mix will work once the crowd is in the room. There's nothing more frustrating than listening to the FOH trying to make your electronic music match the profile of a live rock band. And the monitor mixes are just as big a problem. Often an unfamiliar FOH engineer will have to spend all of his time on the PA mix, understandably, so that you might get some really wild sh*t through the wedges or in-ears, haha. We've done some shows where the whole band rips their in-ear monitors off at the same moment as though it was planned or something, haha. like strippers.

-synthoid

[Tibbon]

Oh man this one show I played in NYC was my first with IEMs. Everything was peachy (aside from the fact that I could neither see the audience due to the lights, or hear them barely, which was weird) until the 2nd guitarist hit hit keyboard at the beginning of some song. Apparently we'd checked everything except his keyboard for my IEMs. It was all the way up. I looked like a scared cat jumping on stage trying to rip them out.