Why Do So many guitar players play with a 100w head and 4x12?

[matthewvandenham]

OK, so at just about every show I've played at or been to the sound guy would tell the guitarist(s) to 'turn it down'. Why do guitarists and bassists for the matter use such over powered amps for shows? Wouldn't a 50w or lower head give you thicker tone because you would be able to to crank the tubes and get it hotter? for example, if a guitarist with a 100-150w tube amp plays at 3-4 on the volume scale (at shows) then that is around 60-70% of the tubes not being pumped/used...what's the point in having so much power, is it just for show? And why is a 12" (like the celestion v30) speaker so common in 'good' guitar cabs ? I would think a 15" speaker would give you much heavier/thicker tone(?). I also wonder why guitarists don't consider buying a quality microphone that's (well suited to that particular style) instead of buying cheesy fx pedals or things that don't matter too much. Most venues don't carry very good quality mics, so if you have your own mic you'd have an edge on your live-sound.

[PhilR]

Play guitar in a band for a couple of years, then answer yourself.

[Gordon]

Before I flame you for not knowing anything, what instruments do you play?

As a bass player I something use 600 watts of amplification.

[PhilR]

Originally Posted by Gordon

Before I flame you for not knowing anything, what instruments do you play?

As a bass player I something use 600 watts of amplification.

Ditto, and sometimes I still don't have enough stage volume. And no, I've never played a stage bigger than a decent-size club.

[dkelley]

maybe ask yourself why do so many guitar amp manufacturers sell 100 watt heads and 4x12 cabs.

I use a small 50 watt vox combo... but back when I played live gigs in rock bands all the time I used some pretty huge amps - 8x10s, dual 4x12s, several heads.

you use what you need to use to cut through and yet still sit well during rhythm playing.

I for one though do feel that most guitar players play too loud in band rehearsals. The level should be set by the acoustic instrument (drums). if you can't play to a great mix level in the room with your ears to blend with the drums then you're not listening to the right thing.

cheers,

Don

[videoracer]

Big ego's

[Draw the Moral]

Originally Posted by dkelley

maybe ask yourself why do so many guitar amp manufacturers sell 100 watt heads and 4x12 cabs.

I use a small 50 watt vox combo... but back when I played live gigs in rock bands all the time I used some pretty huge amps - 8x10s, dual 4x12s, several heads.

you use what you need to use to cut through and yet still sit well during rhythm playing.

I for one though do feel that most guitar players play too loud in band rehearsals. The level should be set by the acoustic instrument (drums). if you can't play to a great mix level in the room with your ears to blend with the drums then you're not listening to the right thing.

cheers,

Don

+5

We guitarists are notorious for being too loud. I specifically try to be a little quiet so that I have some room to turn up if I need to.

I know that I'm playing my part correctly (most of the time) because I've practiced, so I want to hear everyone else to make sure it blends. To me, the joy of playing with a band is not hearing myself, it's hearing the whole mix of the instruments.


But yeah, even if you are trying to listen, you still need a pretty hefty amp when you consider a drummer, a bass player, possibly a second guitarist, maybe keyboards and a singer.
So unless you are playing jazz and the drummer is using brushes, you'll need some power.

[shanabit]

Originally Posted by matthewvandenham

Why do guitarists and bassists for the matter use such over powered guitar- amps for shows? Wouldn't a 50w head give you thicker tone because you would be able to to crank the tube and get it hotter?
And can someone confirm if a larger speaker (like a 15" vs a v30 - 12") would give you thicker tone?

So they can turn it up, why else? Ego for sure. Most will say its about the TONE they get. I say its so they can be heard over everyone else.

Why do they ALWAYS turn down the volume on the Bass or Guitar during sound check when setting volumes on the board and then turn it up when you start playing and screw up your whole monitor mix on the stage? Drives me nuts

[dysenterygary]

Originally Posted by matthewvandenham

OK, so at just about every show I've played at or been to the sound guy would tell the guitarist(s) to 'turn it down'. Why do guitarists and bassists for the matter use such over powered amps for shows? Wouldn't a 50w or lower head give you thicker tone because you would be able to to crank the tubes and get it hotter? for example, if a guitarist with a 100-150w tube amp plays at 3-4 on the volume scale (at shows) then that is around 60-70% of the tubes not being pumped/used...what's the point in having so much power, is it just for show? And why is a 12" (like the celestion v30) speaker so common in 'good' guitar cabs ? I would think a 15" speaker would give you much heavier/thicker tone(?). I also wonder why guitarists don't consider buying a quality microphone that's (well suited to that particular style) instead of buying cheesy fx pedals or things that don't matter too much. Most venues don't carry very good quality mics, so if you have your own mic you'd have an edge on your live-sound.

As a guitarist w/way too overpowered equipment, I will honestly say its for the look, and the bragging rights. I have never had my mesa triple rec over 2!!! on stage or in practice. I have mine set at 100watt and its just insanely loud. I actually couldn't ever imagine a stage where I would need it blasting. I don't get the "it needs to be loud so I can hear it" argument... don't you people use monitors?? Now there is the manly awesomeness to knowing that you could crank it up and blow up a small village though, that is nice. Its main purpose is to look good and sound good, and it does both of those things really well.

[docbop]

Because <fill in guitar hero of the week> did in a picture somewhere. They don't realize how many fake amps are on stages for show. That most of all that volume hey love is coming from the PA and mic'ing one amp and it backup on-stage. That in the studio their hero used a small amp that sound sweet. They don't want to know how their hero have to control the photos they are in so they don't lose their endorsements.

How many studios have these little off brand amp no guitarist would be seen with, but put a mic on it and it sound great in a recording. That amp is still around the studio for a reason.

I remember a session once and the guitar sound was too clean. The artist a guitarist wasn't around so we got and old monitor amp and a radio shack outdoor patio speaker and re-amp the track. Guitarist loved the sound till he saw the little setup in the live room.

[DamnYankee]

Originally Posted by matthewvandenham

Every show I've ever played or been to the sound guy would tell the guitarist to 'turn it down!' because at jams we all like to play at around 4.5-5.

Why do guitarists and bassists for the matter use such over powered guitar- amps for shows? Wouldn't a 50w head give you thicker tone because you would be able to to crank the tube and get it hotter?
And can someone confirm if a larger speaker (like a 15" vs a v30 - 12") would give you thicker tone?

The 100W question is addressed in one of my record engineering books. According to the math, the difference between a 100W vs 50W is a volume output difference of only 3dB. Which means, it's not much at all. You'd think the 100W would be twice as loud, but that's not how it works.

To answer your speaker size question: you can design any size speaker to do whatever you want it to do with a particular electronics component. I think guitar amps and their frequencies are "voiced" for 12" speakers...unless of course you're using the rare Rockman 500W head - and those are engineered for the Rockman 3-way guitar cabinet (15", 10", horn).

[KeithMoonwannabe]

I guess I'm not egotistical enough....the rig I'm saving for is an Orange 2x12" cab with Eminence Governor and Red Fang speakers and a Vox Night Train Head. I think a 4x12" and 100 watt head is overkill at least for my practice space, friends recording studios, and the venues I play in. I'd rather get a kickass tone than be the loudest thing on stage.

Then an assortment of various effects pedals (which I already possess)
Keeley modded Vox Wah, Keeley Blues Driver, Keeley Sparkle Drive, Voodoo Lab Superfuzz, Voodoo Lab Micro Vibe, Voodoo Lab Analog Chorus, Voodoo Lab Tremolo, Line 6 Verbzilla, MXR Carbon Copy Analog Delay, Peterson Strobe Stomp Tuner.

My amp right now is simply a VOX AC4TV combo. I mike it up when I play out with a Blue Ball.

[narcoman]

Headroom on the output section matters for some amps - particularly Orange and Matamps.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by matthewvandenham

OK, so at just about every show I've played at or been to the sound guy would tell the guitarist(s) to 'turn it down'. Why do guitarists and bassists for the matter use such over powered amps for shows? Wouldn't a 50w or lower head give you thicker tone because you would be able to to crank the tubes and get it hotter? for example, if a guitarist with a 100-150w tube amp plays at 3-4 on the volume scale (at shows) then that is around 60-70% of the tubes not being pumped/used...what's the point in having so much power, is it just for show?

100W is not double as loud as 50W, far from it.


What I found is that Marshalls (especially older ones) sound great and powerful yet warm. Although I love Fender amps and contantly use them live, often they are more piercing and hurtful to your ears because of the twangier midrange character and especially the open back design.

Originally Posted by matthewvandenham

I also wonder why guitarists don't consider buying a quality microphone that's (well suited to that particular style) instead of buying cheesy fx pedals or things that don't matter too much. Most venues don't carry very good quality mics, so if you have your own mic you'd have an edge on your live-sound.

An edge and tinnitus, yeah. Nothing beats a SM57!

Ever wondered why Cream-era Clapton, Page, Hendrix or SRV got such great guitar sounds? Yes, it was in their minds and fingers but it was also the fact that the amps were wide-open. It used to be called rock and roll and it was loud and powerful. That's probably hard to grasp when you're working with Guitar Rig on a laptop in your bedroom....

[KeithMoonwannabe]

this is kind of a bizarre post. Who cares what other people use as far as gear? I'd be less concerned with that and focus on what works for you.

You want plenty of headroom to cut over a drummer, bassist, other guitarists, vocalists, keyboardists, instruments, etc.

100W vs say 50W isn't as much as you'd think.

I prefer using combos and low power tube heads for the lightweight design and tone they offer. My favorite amp of all time is probably the VOX AC15 and then the Orange Rocker 30.

I'm currently saving for a VOX night train head and an orange 2x12" cab, I'll be loading it with a couple of Eminence speakers.

[Umami Uni]

Originally Posted by Draw the Moral

We guitarists are notorious for being too loud. To me, the joy of playing with a band is not hearing myself, it's hearing the whole mix of the instruments.

I couldn't agree more with this!

Originally Posted by dysentarygary

As a guitarist w/way too overpowered equipment, I will honestly say its for the look, and the bragging rights. I have never had my mesa triple rec over 2!!! on stage or in practice. I actually couldn't ever imagine a stage where I would need it blasting. Its main purpose is to look good...

However,You're just in idiot- I bet you stuff a nice sock in your pants too onstage too. A prime example of undeserved equipment going to some cock showoff that happens to have some extra cash. yacktutt

[ohmicide]

i guess if you're playing small venues with the house PA you might use them as a guarantee that you wont be sacrificing your tone (due to shitty microphone, pa, engineer, cables or whatever)

but other than that i see nothing wrong with bringing a small amp or combo amp with you and mic'ing it up with a 57 or whatever microphone you like

[aclarson]

Different cabinet sizes have different tones, and greater numbers of speakers adds more depth to a tone because each speaker is like a different voice with different characteristics. They all blend together to make one very rich sound, assuming you're driving it with a good amp. It's like Slipperman talks about in his guide, when you learn the points of speaker excursion and cabinet involvement, you find the point at which the cabinet resonates the best, and it's not at quiet levels.

I do agree that 100w is usually overkill, even with a 4 x 12", my Mesa 50/50 on low power mode (20w a channel) can get louder than I ever need. The high power mode is nice for clean headroom, though.

I'd agree that many guitarists get big cabs because that's what they see others have, but I don't think that diminishes their value in the right setting. Many guitarists have great amps and set them to sound awful.

It's just like any great tool - dangerous in the wrong hands.

[ohmicide]

i guess if you're playing small venues with the house PA you might use them as a guarantee that you wont be scarifying your tone (due to shitty microphone, pa, engineer, cables or whatever)

but other than that i see nothing wrong with bringing a small amp or combo amp with you and mic'ing it up with a 57 or whatever microphone you like

[Draw the Moral]

Originally Posted by alehoe

i guess if you're playing small venues with the house PA you might use them as a guarantee that you wont be scarifying your tone (due to shitty microphone, pa, engineer, cables or whatever)

but other than that i see nothing wrong with bringing a small amp or combo amp with you and mic'ing it up with a 57 or whatever microphone you like

Absolutely there's nothing wrong with using a small amp. The only thing about small amps is that you just can't get the range of response that you can from a larger amp.

I've got two amps- a Mesa dual recto maverick an orange crush 10.

I get some great sounds out of the orange, and I use it for solo performances or low key gigs.

But it simply doesn't have the full range of response that the Mesa does.

[matthewvandenham]

ok lets compare say an orange rockerverb 50 vs this crate/burgera stack: the crate/burgera was actually mic'ed and the orange sounds a lot better! it cuts through much better and sounds more full. or how about a mesa single vs a triple rectifier, another triple...

my theory is both mesa triples are playing at 'colder' tube volumes so they don't cut through as well as the 50w which is pumping out tones/sounds tighter and hotter.

Also I think that when you play at louder/hotter volumes, your amp it has greater thump and tone so you can reduce the gain so there's no excess fuzz in the mix. And I think that the tighter encasing of a 2x12 vs a 4x12 gives your tone more punch...there's less air and wiring etc.

so why bother lugging around all that dead weight?

I suppose if you relied exclusively on you amp volume then ya it would be pretty awesome to see someone play like 2 or 3 amps combined on cranked volumes... but I think that most of us don't have that kind of money or have the man power or want to exert that much effort before every show or jams.

also a 50w and a 2x12 or combo, you can play it in your apartment, jam space, studio, venue... a 100w isn't quite as versatile considering the size and loudness.

[ohmicide]

Originally Posted by Draw the Moral

Absolutely there's nothing wrong with using a small amp. The only thing about small amps is that you just can't get the range of response that you can from a larger amp.

I've got two amps- a Mesa dual recto maverick an orange crush 10.

I get some great sounds out of the orange, and I use it for solo performances or low key gigs.

But it simply doesn't have the full range of response that the Mesa does.

well you gotta remember that the orange crush is a solid state amp

[gfcurtis]

Originally Posted by KeithMoonwannabe

You want plenty of headroom to cut over a drummer, bassist, other guitarists, vocalists, keyboardists, instruments, etc.

100W vs say 50W isn't as much as you'd think.

If you want an amp that's half as loud as a 100 watt amp, you have to go ten times less. That means, a 10 watt amp is half as loud as a 100 watt amp. In fact, a 50 watt amp is not even audibly quieter than the 100 watt equivalent.

That and a 100 watt amp cranked with 100 percent efficient speakers is well over 130 dB. That's close to a jet plane taking off.

[dysenterygary]

Originally Posted by Mr_headphones

I couldn't agree more with this!




However,You're just in idiot- I bet you stuff a nice sock in your pants too onstage too. A prime example of undeserved equipment going to some cock showoff that happens to have some extra cash. yacktutt

Haha, no its usually an old dirty tube sock. And I'm the idiot cause I stuff a nice sock "in your pants too onstage too"?? Good try.

[Bouldy]

Not sure where anyone would get the idea from....

[AMIEL]

I do not know..I really prefer great Combo Amps! ..THEY SOUND WARMER AND COOLER TO ME!

[matthewvandenham]

more orange rockerverb...YouTube - Orange Rockerverb 50 Metal - PRS SC245

I hear what buddy is say about the 10w tube amp vs 100w but I think you would require at least 25w to power 2 speakers. not certain on that one.

[KeithMoonwannabe]

Originally Posted by gfcurtis

If you want an amp that's half as loud as a 100 watt amp, you have to go ten times less. That means, a 10 watt amp is half as loud as a 100 watt amp. In fact, a 50 watt amp is not even audibly quieter than the 100 watt equivalent.

That and a 100 watt amp cranked with 100 percent efficient speakers is well over 130 dB. That's close to a jet plane taking off.

well that's what I was saying I was just being concise lol

I play a 4 watt tube amp (Vox AC4TV combo and I couldn't be happier) and I'm looking for a 15 watt tube head (eyein the vox night train and the orange tiny terror). I want a 2x12 orange cab with a red fang and a governor (both eminence speakers). Using a Blue Ball on each speaker.

I love my AC4TV I just need some more headroom, I mainly got it as a recording/practice combo amp. But since I just moved I don't have the funds to replace my bigger amp that I sold.

[climber]

Randy Roos, the guitarist in my fusion band In House (inhousetheband.com) plays with a 70's Deluxe with yellow jackets and it still can shred my ears. I guess that's what, 20 watts? fat, warm, loud...what more does he need? oh yes, that's right - looks.

[B.Santillan]

Originally Posted by matthewvandenham

my theory is both mesa triples are playing at 'colder' tube volumes so they don't cut through as well as the 50w which is pumping out tones/sounds tighter and hotter.

Also I think that when you play at louder/hotter volumes, your amp it has greater thump and tone so you can reduce the gain so there's no excess fuzz in the mix. And I think that the tighter encasing of a 2x12 vs a 4x12 gives your tone more punch...there's less air and wiring etc.

also a 50w and a 2x12 or combo, you can play it in your apartment, jam space, studio, venue... a 100w isn't quite as versatile considering the size and loudness.

A lot of metal guitar players use higher wattage to get a tighter low end. The harder you push an amp the more the power tubes saturate and compress and the looser the low end gets. That's great for most music in general, but lots of rock and metal guys want super tight, punchy sounds.

I didn't care to listen to the samples, but there are too many variables to really be able to say why the orange is sticking out in the mix better than the mesa's.

When you play a low wattage amp at really high volumes, the power tubes are compressing a lot more than a high wattage amp, so you might not need as much pre-amp gain to get the amount of compression that you want/need for your playing style.

As far as being able to play a 50 watt 2x12 combo in your apartment and not a 100 watt 4x12, that's just silly. Both are going to be super loud. Doubling your wattage only gives you 3 dB's more volume. Meaning a 50 watt mesa rectifier and a 100 watt rectifier will only be 3dB's apart when they're dimed.

Things get trickier when you start comparing different amps with different transformers, speakers, different numbers of speakers, and cab types, but it wont be the difference between being able to play in your apartment or not being able to play in your apartment.

I just looked up what kind of volume difference you can get from doubling your number of speakers. In a best case scenario you could get approximately a 6 dB boost.

I don't know how big a dB boost or drop you get by using more or less efficient power transformers, but I'm just going to throw what I think is a believable number out....3db...........No, let's be more extreme....6db.

So in a worst case scenario the biggest volume difference will be 15 dB (I doubt this combination is likely, but it's probably possible). That's pretty huge, but when you're talking about 130 dB and 115dB it becomes pretty insignificant. You're talking about painfully loud, or painfully loud. Both are too much for an apartment.

They will definitely sound different though. Whether you think that is a good or a bad thing is only a matter of taste though and in the right hands both will be able to cut through a mix just fine.

Though I do prefer lower wattage amps myself.

also, as far as I know there is no minimum wattage for powering multiple speakers.

another note: While a 15" speaker will generally give you more low end, it will also generally be looser sounding low end. That's why so many bass players use a cab with some 10's in it and a cab with a 15". The idea is that it will be big and tight sounding. And for guitar you don't need that much low end. You need to be leaving room sonically for the bass guitar and drums.