Why Do So many guitar players play with a 100w head and 4x12?

[B.Santillan]

Originally Posted by memphisindie

If they are both measured peak watts, yeah, RMS maybe maybe not. 50 watts rms does not necessarily peak at 50 watts, it could be much higher and a 100 watt rms amp may be exponentially more peak than a 50 watt rms........ (disclaimer)As far as I remember, and it's also frequency dependent and load dependent.

Ted Weber says that a tube amp can put out as much as 50% more wattage than it's rating when dimed.

but I think we're just confusing the original poster. All other things being equal, 100 watts is 3db louder than 50. When you start changing the speaker load, speaker efficiency and transformer efficiency that rule pretty much goes out the window.

[SmooveG]

I use a Musicman 50 watt combo with 1 12. Ive used it for
28 years and it's usually singers and not the sound man telling me to turn
down. I play with the band not in front of it. Oddly whenever I
hand my guitar to someone they play way to loudtutt NO DYNAMICS.
Play Smoove. let the guitar do the cutting just like a quality hand saw. Stay away from monitors and loud basses if possible, then you don't have to compete to hear yourself.

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by NoFalsetto

Because it goes to 11.

Yeah!!!

[Tibbon]

Aside from wanting sparkly clean tones at high volume (just use a JC-120 at that point if you need it that clean?) I see little point in using 100 watt heads mostly. Yea, I've played on plexi's and mesa amps and its just not needed most of the time. There's few venues that you can dime an AC30 on before the FOH guy tries to kill you. There are of course rare exceptions.

Don't try to pull up a Beatles reference on this one. The Beatles mainly used super loud amps live because they HAD to. FOH systems weren't much in those days. If they used them in the studio it was because they had them given to them by Vox for their sponsorship and they had them laying around.

A Matchless DC-30, Vox AC-30, etc... plenty of volume for nearly any live situation. Even in an arena or festival situation you aren't relying on the amp itself to push to the entire audience.

Honestly, some guys are just ******s who think they need the loudest thing out there and they need to always turn it up all the way. It simply isn't the case. Lots of immature guys in bands.

[matthewvandenham]

Originally Posted by B.Santillan

1. Because 10 isn't necessarily the only way an amp sounds good. Diming your amp (even a 5 watt amp) will give you a lot of compression (which as electric guitar players we rely on more than we would probably like to admit), and it will be so loud that your ears will be compressing and the frequency response of your ears will change so that you are hearing more low and high end than is actually there.

This has already been explained to you by me and at least one other guy. Lots of people don't really appreciate the sound of power tube saturation/compression because your low end gets loose sounding. They prefer the tighter, punchier sound of setting their low end with their eq, then using either a compression pedal and pre-amp gain for their compression, or just their pre amp gain.

2. I don't really understand why you're confused. The decibel system is logarithmic..... is that what's confusing you? I guess it is a little confusing.

Also, is it really that mind blowing that there's more to volume than power? the efficiency of both your speakers and power transformer will affect the volume of your rig.

3. Get a dB meter from radio shack, turn your amp all the way up, play, and watch the meter.


you should get Nika aldrich's book: "digital audio explained" It has a lot of great info about digital audio and also a really good, really easy to understand chapter about the ear, hearing, and the decibel system.

or at least check this out..... If you're decent at math this may help. If you're not good at math I don't think it will confuse you any more than you are though........ Decibel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ya I guess what I was saying in so many words is that I don't appreciate the sound of an amp with too much if any compression and I don't really agree with you on the low end being tighter with 100w w/4x12's... I guess 'tighter' is one way of putting it, but to my ears it sounds FLAT and Dry...like a solid state amp sounds. when a lower wattage tube amp is fully saturated there's so much more colour and life to the sound...I can really feel the the warmth and bite of the amp.

it's just one of those preference/opinion based threads...so there's going to be all kinds of conflicting ideas going on in this thread no matter what...but thanks for your comments and i'll try to run in to that book you've mentioned. cheers

[B.Santillan]

Originally Posted by matthewvandenham

ya I guess what I was saying in so many words is that I don't appreciate the sound of an amp with too much if any compression and I don't really agree with you on the low end being tighter with 100w w/4x12's... I guess 'tighter' is one way of putting it, but to my ears it sounds FLAT and Dry...like a solid state amp sounds. when a lower wattage tube amp is fully saturated there's so much more colour and life to the sound...I can really feel the the warmth and bite of the amp.

it's just one of those preference/opinion based threads...so there's going to be all kinds of conflicting ideas going on in this thread no matter what...but thanks for your comments and i'll try to run in to that book you've mentioned. cheers

Distortion/saturation is compression. That's part of what happens when you dime your amp. You cause a shitload of compression and the harmonic content changes. You're also playing at incredibly loud volumes causing the frequency response of your ears to change.

I'm just telling you that that's why a lot of rock and metal dudes use 100 watt or higher amps instead of lower wattage amps. For a tighter, punchier sound.

You get your distortion in a different way. It's a little looser sounding, but the compression you get is a little cleaner and you get some interesting things going on with the harmonics.

There's nothing wrong with either school of thought. There is a right and wrong place for each sound and both will cut through the mix when done properly.

[matthewvandenham]

I hear what you're saying but in my 15 years of experience playing drums/guitar/bass/singing in various hardcore, metal, punk, ska, rock/grunge and surf bands, I've come to realize that a 100w head is much too loud for subtleties... it just punishes my ears when turned up to 4 or 5. ...but when played at two or
three on the volume scale, they tend to sound rather dry and dull. I've played with guitarists that use: Mesa Roadster/Triple recto, Peavey XXL, EVH, a few Marshall valvestates/solidstate amps and a jcm 800, line6 spider 3, Fender Tremolux. And I've owned various (mediocre) practice amps myself. Out of all of the amps I've used, my favorite was the 60's Fender (blond face) ...Amp Guide » Tremolux (Blonde). It did not have the ability to overpower (30-35w's) the band but the tone just cut through and it sounded fantastic on the clean. I always wondered what was so special about that amp... it had such beautiful subtleties and warmth at higher volumes...the only thing was that it lacked a gain channel so it was pretty much useless to me.

vox and orange also make beautiful sounding amps... I've grown tired of the mesa/marshall/peavey/engl/etc etc 100+w sounds...same old 'chuga-chuga' that only gets used during jams if you have a big enough jam space to accomodate it.

[daleybenjamin]

I play the guitar and bass, and, speaking from experience in both the studio and on the stage, it's not a bad thing to have too much power, especially when you're playing the bass.

I use a Genz Benz GBE-1200 with an Ampeg SVT-810E cabinet, and I find that the tone and power are both excellent. 1200 watts is not too much, and I can get a really clean, natural bass sound with adequate volume. It's the way to go, I personally believe. People have different opinions, but, with bass, most people agree that power is just as important as tone; with that much power behind eight awesome speakers, you really can't go wrong.

The summary for bass is that power is good!

For guitar, it's a bit different. First of all, I want to say that 15" speakers with guitar sound bad, because the frequencies are too high. It'll just sound muddy. I know some people who use it to get an intentionally sludgy sound, but their guitars are usually tuned down to unimaginable levels. I know some baritone guitarists who use 15" speakers, but there's just no point.

When it comes to playing, I'd rather have too much power than not enough, but, if you're being mic'd, then, sure, a 40 watt or 50 watt amp will sound better for distortion.

I don't know what everyone else thinks, but I think you worry too much, haha.

Everyone must use a 100 watt amp with four 12" speakers because, through the many, many years of electric guitar, people have found that it works the BEST.

[guitardom]

Originally Posted by matthewvandenham

I hear what you're saying but in my 15 years of experience playing drums/guitar/bass/singing in various hardcore, metal, punk, ska, rock/grunge and surf bands, I've come to realize that a 100w head is much too loud for subtleties... it just punishes my ears when turned up to 4 or 5. ...but when played at two or
three on the volume scale, they tend to sound rather dry and dull. I've played with guitarists that use: Mesa Roadster/Triple recto, Peavey XXL, EVH, a few Marshall valvestates/solidstate amps and a jcm 800, line6 spider 3, Fender Tremolux. And I've owned various (mediocre) practice amps myself. Out of all of the amps I've used, my favorite was the 60's Fender (blond face) ...Amp Guide » Tremolux (Blonde). It did not have the ability to overpower (30-35w's) the band but the tone just cut through and it sounded fantastic on the clean. I always wondered what was so special about that amp... it had such beautiful subtleties and warmth at higher volumes...the only thing was that it lacked a gain channel so it was pretty much useless to me.

vox and orange also make beautiful sounding amps... I've grown tired of the mesa/marshall/peavey/engl/etc etc 100+w sounds...same old 'chuga-chuga' that only gets used during jams if you have a big enough jam space to accomodate it.

i think you asked your question but then you answer it yourself. i cannot go buy a 35w boogie mark IV. this is a problem w a lot of this, you want the tone, you gotta get THAT amp. i own a mesa boogie mark V and each channel is selectable between 10-45-90w. but you know, 10w can kick butt, but is sounds horrible when trying to be heavy. plus you are talking amps and tones YOU prefer, i am to guess we like different types of music.

i have a 1x12, 2x12, and 2 4x12 cabs. guess what settings the mark V sound best on when jamming dream theater or something?? 90w on the 4x12! not cause its louder, but because of the impact of everything working so hard, even when not CRANKED up. it just feel BIG. though i can turn it to 45w and push it a bit harder for a bit more compression, though the poweramp tubes shut down a bit to drop it to 45.

another thought.... w a 4x12 cab, at least one that is stereo capable, you can just plug in one side and run it as a 2x12 cab, and still have the air movement in the cab that makes a 4x12 sound so big.

also my 18w dr z maz jr, sounds SO much different on a 1x12 cab and a 2x12 cab. there is a lot of experimentation to be had when looking for tones. speakers and cabs are much underrated imo to a lot of "novices"

someone that would catergorize boogie, marshall, peavey as chuga chuga amps really needs to stop listening to our opinions and go try some other amps out and get some EXPERIENCED personell to show you around them a bit. or maybe get away from mainstream, go check out dr.z / 65 amps / divided by 13 /buddha.... you get what you pay for in the amp world

[7161]

Originally Posted by Chrislpp

an extra 4x12 then?

it was a hughes and ketner (not my choice)... and having used one now my opinion is the best thing to do with it is set the pile of shit rig on fire and kick it off the stage cos it'd be more useful as a festival bonfire frankly

absolutely the shittiest weediest rig i ever played thru in my life

[Jay Dee]

Originally Posted by Newcleardaze

I had a friend who had 4 4x12 cabs and insisted on taking them all onour first gig... we though he was nuts, but relented in spite of the small amount of stage space. The deal was that he had to load and unload all of them himself. Turns out looking cool wasn't all THAT important.

I remember (back in the day) helping to load in/out Ampeg 8X10's for the bass player's rig. Today I truthfully couldn't even physically do it! My back is shot!

[noah330]

^ The 8x10 CAB was the easy part - they had wheels and a handle. I played with a guy who used the 8x10 and 2 SVT heads - these were the old heads and he kept them in a flight case (one was a backup). It took three of us to get that thing loaded.

These days I have an old Fender Deluxe (the Tweed one from the 50s) and a 60's Vibrolux. My big amps (SLO, Twin, etc...) usually stay at home.

[RussMaGuss]

My Ambeg BA115 combo suits me well for the venues I play, but then again, It has a line out, and doesn't need to get mic'd. My venues are small anyways, I'm 18, and I haven't been gigging half as long as many of you, so my rig will probably change to a 4X10 ampeg HLF with a decent head in a couple of years I would imagine.

[beaxarthur]

I've played / recorded hardcore, thrash, metal, etc for a long time. To date I have not found any benefit to using all 100 watts of any of my guit amps (mesa dual rec & '74 OR-120). I use the trick of pulling out the #1 and 4 power tubes and halving the output impedance. Still plenty of wattage at any venue, and you can crank it to 11 in the studio if you feel the need with disturbing the neighbors only slightly less. Not to mention less money blown on tubes. You still get the look and everybody wins.

[disconnected]

When I play bass live I use a Gallien Krueger 400rb (an original one)
I used to use an Ampeg SVT 3 Pro head (early 90's)
with an Ampeg 410 HLF cabinet

The Ampeg is higher watts 275/ 450
but the tone on the 400 rb (200 watts)
is the best so I use that

I also have a GK 700 rb head that is 400 watts (I think)
but I hardly ever use it live

I also have an Ampeg v6 head but never use that live

Most venues DI me and I hate it because I get lost in the mix
most of the time - some mic me
Some places we play have a little P.A.
So its amps to 11 there
I don't think I've ever turned it up past half though
Our drummer is a hard hitter so we have to play a little louder to hear
I can't very well turn down the drums

when I played guitar in my band I used a Fender M80 head
and a Fender 412 cab..not sure on the wattage..
now I have a Fender Hot Rod Deville 60 watts
but I'm just the bass player now
so the Deville is my home toy