Conga drum micing and mixing

[Yetti]

I have a band coming in next week that is Latin / Jazz...Band leader made it a point many times during pre production meeting that they want a deep, full conga sound....there will be Bass and acoustic guitar, but the percussion element will be prominant.
Recordings I have done with congas in the past have not made this a feature instument, so usually 1 or 2 SM81's about 6-8" from the top head sat in a crowded mix just fine.
Does anyone have experience with 2nd mic placment?
Shell? Bottom? Put the congas on plywood and room mic 3 or 4 feet back?
Sure, I can do brief trial and error, but I always try not to dick around too long....wanna keep the positive vibe moving through the session.

Thanks in advance!

[surflounge]

Maybe ask the player how it was done before.

[deeper]

Originally Posted by Yetti

they want a deep, full conga sound

Make sure the congas are emitting a deep, full conga sound before it reaches the microphone. If the congas don't sound "deep and full" by themselves, you're going to have a tough time capturing something that isn't there to begin with.

Have you used two mics on a drum before? The top mic captures the "snap" or "crack" that makes the drum cut through the mix. For more body, try putting a second mic underneath the elevated conga. A Sennheiser 441 works well. You will probably have to experiment with mic placement before you get the sound you desire. You will probably need to flip the phase on either the top or bottom mic.

However, if your room is large enough, the "deepest, fullest" sound will likely be achieved not by close-miking, but by miking the room.

Regardless, the "deepest, fullest" sounding congas requires (1) a big room that gives the low frequencies room to blossom, (2) quality congas that are tuned well, (3) a performer with great technique.

[flober1970]

Place a large piece of wood below the congas.

F

[big country]

a really good kick drum sounds best with a ribbon Mic on a pillow laying down inside
I'm wondering if you somehow if ya ran the ribbon inside the conga drum it
possibly would capture that same feel

thats really the only kick sound Ive heard that was like holy shit
and I'm some how sure if you did the same thing you might get some holy shit sounds
out of conga

you could also try taping some Piezos to the shell for effect revers the phase and maybe
get some more high freq out of the top mic on a hard pan

so you'd go hard left shell pies reversd phase and sdC top , hard right ribbon underneath

[Jules]

Best conga recording tip I know is to not obsess about equal LOOKING levels on your record meters. Obviously don't overload the loudest one but don't freak if the quieter one ( the hi one?) looks low level. If it SOUNDS fine then it IS fine.

Compression will bring out the "wet fish slap" if it's needed.

Crossed 421's ??? And dbx 160 vu ?

Good luck.

Hey why not spend a few mins hunting for the deepest sound placement in your room ? Could be one corner is ideal for them....

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Jules

Best conga recording tip I know is to not obsess about equal LOOKING levels on your record meters. Obviously don't overload the loudest one but don't freak if the quieter one ( the hi one?) looks low level. If it SOUNDS fine then it IS fine.

Compression will bring out the "wet fish slap" if it's needed.

Crossed 421's ??? And dbx 160 vu ?

Good luck.

Hey why not spend a few mins hunting for the deepest sound placement in your room ? Could be one corner is ideal for them....

I seem to recall that technique being used to record Armando Paraza at the Automatt on a session I worked..... A wood floor is essential for a good sound..... Think it was into a Trident 80b, may have used an API pre or two though.....

BeyerDynamic M201N(C)s might work better than 421s. So might Sennheiser MD409s if you can find a pair...... M88s might work well, too......

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by big country

a really good kick drum sounds best with a ribbon Mic on a pillow laying down inside
I'm wondering if you somehow if ya ran the ribbon inside the conga drum it
possibly would capture that same feel

you could also try taping some Piezos to the shell for effect revers the phase and maybe
get some more high freq out of the top mic on a hard pan

Bad ideas. Don't want a pillow in a conga, the bottom has to be clear. A ribbon in a conga probably wouldn't work very well.

And piezos? Hah!

[mdoelger]

i had good success with congas micing from unterneath with a md421 and from above about 5-6 feet away with a nice LDC.

the md421 picks up the initial umph and the LDC gives the crispness of the slap together with the breathing of the room.

[Yetti]

Originally Posted by surflounge

Maybe ask the player how it was done before.

I don't think they were 100% happy with what has been done before....

[big country]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

Bad ideas. Don't want a pillow in a conga, the bottom has to be clear. A ribbon in a conga probably wouldn't work very well.

And piezos? Hah!

no pillows in the conga thanks what was I thinking


haaa back!

if you were a real engineer you could make a motor that fits and works perfectly
in a conga then you wouldn't need a pillow

[Yetti]

Originally Posted by Jules

Best conga recording tip I know is to not obsess about equal LOOKING levels on your record meters. Obviously don't overload the loudest one but don't freak if the quieter one ( the hi one?) looks low level. If it SOUNDS fine then it IS fine.

Compression will bring out the "wet fish slap" if it's needed.

Crossed 421's ??? And dbx 160 vu ?

Good luck.

Hey why not spend a few mins hunting for the deepest sound placement in your room ? Could be one corner is ideal for them....

Thanks Jules and eveyone else for the input...
I typically record acoustic instruments near the wood wall, as the reflections off the wall and glass sound best to me.
I will pick up a piece of plywood for the floor to see if that helps the sound of the conga, but my room has 7' cielings so it may not.. but I'll try it.
I don't have a pair of 421's, but I have 1.....the K2 does pretty well for me as a room mic, so I may begin with a K2, 421, and the SM81 as my starting point through Pacifica.
Since they are looking for a paticular sound, I think it will remain positive and fun if the trial and error time goes for 15 min. or 20 min, but again.... I would be happy to spend and entire afternoon experimenting , but musicians are not usually Gearsluts...

I will post examples.
Thanks again Brothas!

[big country]

[ElMosca]

Originally Posted by Yetti

I have a band coming in next week that is Latin / Jazz...Band leader made it a point many times during pre production meeting that they want a deep, full conga sound....

Some good advice has already been given, but here's my $0.02:

- If the congas don't sound full and round in the room, that should be your first concern.
- If the floor is bare, you don't need plywood under the drums. If it is carpeted, then proceed with the plywood.
- Are the drums mounted on stands or held between the player's legs? If they're mounted, the bass tones will be more present than if they are on the floor.
- Watch the player's technique and make sure all the main "gestures" (i.e. the open tone, the slap, the touches (heel/toe and fingertips), and a bass palm hit) are captured correctly during sound check. Ask the player to produce the various hits while placing mics, etc.

I usually just set up an overhead mic (or a pair, if the client demands it) 3 or 4 ft above the heads and am done. If I ever needed more bass from the congas, I would place a kick drum mic near the bottom of the drums (not inside, and for sanity's sake, do not stick a pillow in it). Listen and experiment.

Good luck,
++aldo

[big country]

humm

listen and experiment but dont put a pillow inside a conga


so by experiment do you mean put a 57 on it or what does experiment
mean

[ElMosca]

Originally Posted by big country

humm

listen and experiment but dont put a pillow inside a conga


so by experiment do you mean put a 57 on it or what does experiment
mean

I meant "experiment with microphone selection and placement". There's plenty of different timbres to be found proceeding in this manner.

I do not recommend placing a delicate microphone directly under the drum opening, because congas move a lot of air and can damage the diaphragm/ribbon. And I do not recommend dampening the sound by placing soft objects inside the body of the drum because you'd be killing a lot of the frequencies that define the "essence of the conga sound." I tried it once and it sounded like $hit to me, but "rules" are meant to be broken, so if you find your sound by sticking a pillow in your conga, by all means, have at it.

Cheers,
++aldo

[macr0w]

Your not going to get deep and low tones from a conga with a pillow in it.

I'm all for experimenting but that's not going to work.

I was going to say that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard but I guess I wont.

[big country]

a ribbon Mic in a conga would most definitely benefit with some type of
dampening

[big country]

the smaller the hole on a hand drum the deeper the tone , more concentrated phase happenings opposite of talking through a cone
cone ups the higher freq.
its phase amplification
putting some type of dampening will stop some of the phase comb filter
altering the end frequency

with a ribbon Mic you would want one side covered in hopes
the ribbon would ride the sound sound waves like a good surf board
if you left both sides open you would definitely have phase complications

[teleharmonium]

My experience recording congas is limited, but it was on an excellent player. He uses plywood squares under each drum, wherever he plays. I used a Beyer M101 omni dynamic around his shoulder not far from the heads, and an AT4047 overhead. That turned out pretty well; he's a veteran session player and liked the results too. I've mixed other tracks of the same player that I did not originally track, done I believe with stereo C3000s, which didn't sound that great to me but were usable in a dense mix.

Next time I track him on congas I will probably start out with a Uher M539 omni, which has a larger element and more lows, and I would not be opposed to trying a ribbon overhead, or at knee level about 2-3 feet in front of the drums. I think the natural sounding lows and mids from the ribbon would blend nicely with the detail of the omni dynamic nearer the heads.

[ElMosca]

Originally Posted by teleharmonium

My experience recording congas is limited, but it was on an excellent player. He uses plywood squares under each drum, wherever he plays. I used a Beyer M101 omni dynamic around his shoulder not far from the heads, and an AT4047 overhead. That turned out pretty well; he's a veteran session player and liked the results too. I've mixed other tracks of the same player that I did not originally track, done I believe with stereo C3000s, which didn't sound that great to me but were usable in a dense mix.

Next time I track him on congas I will probably start out with a Uher M539 omni, which has a larger element and more lows, and I would not be opposed to trying a ribbon overhead, or at knee level about 2-3 feet in front of the drums. I think the natural sounding lows and mids from the ribbon would blend nicely with the detail of the omni dynamic nearer the heads.

Nice. I have a somewhat opposite experience (done it a bunch of times, but with players ranging from "OK" to "stellar"), so my tendency has been to stick to the tried and true: a single LDC overhead.

I have also used a ribbon overhead (between 4 and 5 ft above the drum heads) with good results. I tried close mics on each drum using 57s, but I didn't find anything special about it. In fact, I remember that the close mics brought out all the wrong things, i.e. the soft touches that are supposed to fly under the radar on the mix.

Never tried an omni before, so that'll be my next experiment. I'd also like to try a PZM on the floor, some distance away from the drums, but I don't own a PZM yet, so that'll have to wait.

Thanks,
++aldo

[teleharmonium]

I've got an MP3 of a song with the conga recorded as described above, if anybody wants to hear it, pm me an email address where you can receive it as an attachment.

I'm hoping to do another session with the same player, but I want to pick up a better ribbon mic first so I can do the omni high/ribbon low experiment.

[salomonander]

capture "overheads" in case he is using two congas. so a stereo setup is very nice. km84s in xy have served me very well in this application. you dont want the stereo image too big in most situations. oh yeah....the spl transient designer is very nice in the mixing stage...especially if the room isnt perfect. not boosting the attack but just shortening the delay can work very well

[Yetti]

Originally Posted by teleharmonium

My experience recording congas is limited, but it was on an excellent player. He uses plywood squares under each drum, wherever he plays. I used a Beyer M101 omni dynamic around his shoulder not far from the heads, and an AT4047 overhead. That turned out pretty well; he's a veteran session player and liked the results too. I've mixed other tracks of the same player that I did not originally track, done I believe with stereo C3000s, which didn't sound that great to me but were usable in a dense mix.

Next time I track him on congas I will probably start out with a Uher M539 omni, which has a larger element and more lows, and I would not be opposed to trying a ribbon overhead, or at knee level about 2-3 feet in front of the drums. I think the natural sounding lows and mids from the ribbon would blend nicely with the detail of the omni dynamic nearer the heads.

I have 1 ribbon mic..an Apex 215.
I may give that a try near the floor a couple of feet back in combination with the top head mic or mics, as the 215 mids sound smooth.
I like the idea of plywood squares rather than a 4' x 8' full sheet...I will pull out the table saw and cut into 2' x 2' squares...thanks for the suggestions!

[parissound]

Sorry but your all wrong. Congas should be recorded with senn 421'S or similar mic. They should be no further then a foot away from the heads. Wood should be under them, no stands or pillows or mics inside. I record latin perc everyday, this is my main recording instruments. Now, the eq setting is rather simple and generic. I will get to that later since i am on my cell typing this.

[AnthonyRochester]

I haven't found a need to use a 2nd mic in the bottom of a conga, just use 421 on the top, fairly close. Conga is different to djembe. With a djembe I would use a large dynamic mic on the bottom for the boom, but you don't really get that with a conga.

[boothboy]

Originally Posted by Yetti

I don't think they were 100% happy with what has been done before....

a set of 414 over the tops up about 4 feet and 421's on the congas themselves always works for me, on a wood floor or plywood!! good luck
cheers!

[edvdr76]

I've had great results with 414's and 421's.
414's I like to place a little bit further away than the 421's. Maybe about a foot away.......

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by big country

no pillows in the conga thanks what was I thinking


haaa back!

if you were a real engineer you could make a motor that fits and works perfectly
in a conga then you wouldn't need a pillow

I kind of doubt that the drummer would take kindly to modifying his drums..... And I'm not at all sure that a figure 8 ribbon would function correctly inside the drum, as ribbons are velocity devices, not pressure devices. And I suppose that you make ribbon motors all the time? (As it happens I do have some experience working on ribbon mics - while they are quite simple devices in principle it's not nearly as easy as you'd expect.)

Anyway, micing a conga from inside would miss a lot of the slap and other effects. I have had reasonably good results micing a djembe from inside with a high quality miniature lavalier condenser though (Sony ECM-50/ECM-55) Don't know if it would work on a conga. Also, placement was EXTREMELY critical and difficult to maintain.

My rig of preference would be crossed M201s. e609s might also work, and they're cheap!

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by teleharmonium

My experience recording congas is limited, but it was on an excellent player. He uses plywood squares under each drum, wherever he plays. I used a Beyer M101 omni dynamic around his shoulder not far from the heads, and an AT4047 overhead. That turned out pretty well; he's a veteran session player and liked the results too. I've mixed other tracks of the same player that I did not originally track, done I believe with stereo C3000s, which didn't sound that great to me but were usable in a dense mix.

Next time I track him on congas I will probably start out with a Uher M539 omni, which has a larger element and more lows, and I would not be opposed to trying a ribbon overhead, or at knee level about 2-3 feet in front of the drums. I think the natural sounding lows and mids from the ribbon would blend nicely with the detail of the omni dynamic nearer the heads.

The M101 is a fine mic - it's the omni version of the M201 I recommended, and probably a better choice if you only have one.