Main pair for an orchestra

[tamasdragon]

What would you recommend as an orchestra main pair (or decca?)?
I mean the most versatile or musical, whatever. So please recommend.
TD

[d_fu]

What is the best car?


I would suggest this..

[Don S]

Start with a pair of Schoeps MK21. You'll need a third in order to make a decca tree. Another good choice is the DPA 4006TL with the APE (plastic balls that go on the end to make the mic more directional ).

[tamasdragon]

Originally Posted by d_fu

What is the best car?


I would suggest this..

Thanks. I know you are basicly right. But after reading almost similar threads for hours, and did not find valuable answer, I thought I ask it again.
Thanks for the suggestion.
TD

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by tamasdragon

But after reading almost similar threads for hours, and did not find valuable answer, I thought I ask it again.

Maybe you didn't find the right answer becase there is no "best microphone". And it all depends on your budget also... If you can afford it, try a couple of TLM 50s...




I use a pair of Neumann KM 131, sometimes also Sennheiser MKH 40. Happy with both.

[tamasdragon]

No, I know there isn't magic bullet, but the vast majority of the threads are arguing againts each other. Thanks for the suggestion.
TD

[Corran]

Budget?

[tamasdragon]

3-4k euro for a starter.

[d_fu]

And you want to spend all that just on a main pair, i.e. you've got all the preamps, ADCs, spot mics, etc. that you might need?

€ 2500 will buy you a pair of MKH 20 or 8020... Or KM 131.
4000 will buy you a pair of DPA 4006 TL...

So many choices - and no way to find out which one you prefer except actually trying them out yourself.

[RMJAZZ]

If you like LDC's for a main pair...get Schoeps.

If you like LDC's for main pair...get Neumann M149 or M150.

For the 3-4k Euros budget, I would get a pair of Schoeps.

IMHO

Rob

[tamasdragon]

Schoeps seems like the winner for me.
TD

[ghellquist]

I have used a Schoeps MSTC64 (two MK4 in fixed ORTF configuration) as my "lazy" setup for some years. It simply works on almost anything according to my experience and is very easy to setup. I have quite often borrowed the mic to "less experienced" people together with a Sound Device 722 and they always come back with useable recordings. So this is one setup I really recommend.

Omnis of course are unbeatable in some situations according to my ears. Which of them you choose is I believe a matter of taste. I like the Microtech Gefell M296 but this is probably not shared by everyone. Or why not the Neumann KM183. Or DPA. Or Schoeps. Or Sennheiser. There are a few to test.

I did a few recordings with the Royer SF24 that was simply stunning. In my hands though it only worked in very few rooms. Sold that one.

Gunnar

[d_fu]

Seems to depend a bit on what else you're working with... A DG engineer I know finds MKH 20 boring when used alone, but swears by them when used with spots...

[Corran]

With that budget I'd also say Schoeps, with both a pair of cardioid and omni capsules if you could swing it. If you don't often record in good rooms maybe the subcardioids instead of omnis (MK21).

it's a matter of taste at that point whether you go for Schoeps, DPA, Neumann, Sennheiser, etc.

[mathieujm]

Originally Posted by Corran

With that budget I'd also say Schoeps, with both a pair of cardioid and omni capsules if you could swing it. If you don't often record in good rooms maybe the subcardioids instead of omnis (MK21).

From the literature, MK22 could be the right capsule, but nobody talk about them

JMM

[didier.brest]

Because it has been issued very recently. I understood that it sounds like a MK21 but it is a bit more directive, intermediate between MK21 and MK4.

[Corran]

Yeah too new, I'd love to hear what people around here think about them though.

[0VU]

Originally Posted by Corran

Yeah too new, I'd love to hear what people around here think about them though.

On another site, just after Christmas, I wrote the following about them after using them in my pre Christmas work; I tried them a few times during November but it was only when I got into the usual Christmas rush that I was able to really give them a workout:

I've had a pair on loan since early December, specifically to try them out on a series of jobs in the weeks before Christmas, and I like them a lot. The trouble is that my shopping list was already full before these found their way to a spot near the top of the list.

They got used on classical music concerts in larger concert halls (2500-5000+ seats) carol concerts ranging from largish cathedrals (2000-3000 seats) to churches (about 500 seats) to the Ball Room at Buckingham Palace (in carpeted floor setup seating about 400-500) in the roles of ORTF and ORTF-like near coincident (different spacing) main pair setups, as spot mics on RC700/1200 extension tubes for vocal soloists, as speech mics for readings, and on solo harp, lute, and clarinet.

Before trying them I was interested but not especially convinced that I really needed them as I have many other Schoeps capsules (including MK4 and MK21) and couldn't really see that I'd have a great need for an intermediate pattern. Having now tried them, I found them far more useful than I expected; partly due to the polar pattern and partly sue to the very 'friendly' way that they resolve the frequency spectrum. They worked particularly well in the Harp/Lute/Guitar spot roles and proved very useful in the close up vocal spot role (think Pavarotti/3 Tenors type positioning) with heavy PA coverage and close foldback speakers, etc..As a main stereo pickup I found them rather LF light but my most used choices for this on full range programme would probably be spaced/baffled omnis of some sort or maybe the MK21s in an ORTF-like array for things where the omni LF extension isn't needed. The HF resolution and 'texture' on the MK22 is very beguiling, particularly on plucked things like harps and lute/guitar; smooth and clear without being hard or clinical.

For me, a very useful capsule and definitely on the buy soon list. How soon will depend upon how long I can get away with holding on to the demo pair

Subsequent to this, in early February, I bought the demo pair I'd been using as I couldn't see them go back. Since then I've added two more, selling some MK4s to fund them; I've kept only two MK4s (so that I can do a 'by the book' ORTF or Double MS if I want to).

The MK22s are for me, a great general purpose 'cardioid' mic. They find use more or less anywhere that I'd normally consider a small diaphragm cardioid, or where formerly I'd have chosen an MK21 for its sound despite really needing a bit more separation but not wanting the sound of an MK4. The MK22 doesn't sound exactly like either the MK4 or the MK21, rather a combination. It has a lot of the mid and HF characteristics of the MK21 but with a slightly more defined top and more 'reach'. The LF response I still find a little light compared to an MK21, more akin to the MK4 but with less proximity effect than an MK4. It also seems refreshingly (though not completely) free of the upper mid crunch/resonant distortions/colourations of most cardioid mics. These combine with a wider and smoother than MK4 sweet spot and less forward mid and HF presentation to make a good spot mic for really close work (Pavarotti style), for anywhere that you want extra separation without emphasis of HF and upper mid, particularly transients, and for picking up things like guitars in heavily PA'ed concerts where you (or the PA people) might need/want to get very close for separation but want to avoid picking up too small an area of the instrument, and don't want proximity effect emphasising the low end or the player's movements or a bright HF response unpleasantly emphasising transients, mechanical noise or any extant timbral hardness.

When I first heard about it, the MK22 seemed like a solution to a problem I didn't have but I rapidly came to appreciate it both as a more elegant solution to a number of situations where I'd been working around compromises imposed by, or things I didn't like about, other mics and as a new and very useful mic in its own right. In use, the width/shape of the polar pattern is comparable to the DPA4011 but with the Schoeps family sound rather than DPAs sometimes slightly clinical detatchment.

It'd be rare that I'd choose cardioids of any sort as a main pickup, as in most situations I prefer omnis or subcardioids but the MK22 is an interesting compromise. As a Mid mic in MS, the wider sweet spot is welcome and the smooth off axis response works well; I've found it replacing a DPA4011 in that role on several jobs (not to mention that it's marginally easier to mount two Schoeps than one Schoeps and one DPA). In an ORTF setup I prefer it to a pair of MK4s, though it does need a slightly wider separation (so ORTF is a misnomer) as it seems to produce a smoother and more even image and has a little more LF extension. I've recently been playing with using them instead of the subcardioid pair in the combined subcardioid-omni pairs on a single bar that was discussed in another thread and the results are interesting and undoubtedly will be useful in some situations.

I wouldn't say that it'd be an ideal first or only Schoeps capsule (unless you have a specific need for a 'cardioid' mic with a really good sound) for that I'd suggest an MK5 or perhaps MK21 or MK2/MK2S but it's well worth trying out to plug those holes in your mic locker that you never knew existed.

Now I'm just waiting for them to make something I didn't know I needed between the MK21 and the MK2!


Anyway, thread thoroughly hijacked - sorry. As you were

[mathieujm]

Thanks a lot OVU for this great review.

JMM

[Plush]

Very good report, 0VU.

I also am waiting for the Schoeps MK 2(0)21, the new omni sub cardioid omni.

[mixerguy]

to answer the original posters question

it depends on the room



I can't believe this thread got this far without anyone saying just that!!!!

[7rojo7]

I have 3 MK21, 3 MK5 and 3 Brauner Phantom V
I like them all and can use them all for various duties. Depending on the space and the source.
The Brauners are really stupendous mics, even if they're not the tube models, nice capsule and fast transparent amplification

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

to answer the original posters question
it depends on the room

While this may sound like a really clerver answer, in the end, I don't think it is...

So it depends on the room... Great. What does that mean? Can you specify? Which mic is best for which kind of room? If not, then what good is this answer?

Most of us are not fortunate enough to have our own concert hall in the backyard, so we could just by the pair of mics that works best in this specific place...

So again, what good is this statement? How does it help the OP? If he needs to buy (and can afford only) one main pair, it would not even make sense to fine-tune the purchase to a specific (kind of ) room... So the choice will have to be according to a) budget and b) preferences (AB vs. ORTF etc.).
Of course, the choice between e.g. free-field and duffuse-filed omnis will depend a bit on the location (and recording distance one prefers), but ideally, one would want a fairly universally useable solution, esp. if on a budget.


Daniel

[lerone]

With regards to classical music & the room, one would hope that issue would not need mentioning But yes, the Schoeps would be a cracking choice!!!!!!!!

[pkautzsch]

For €4k one can easily get a pair of KM183s and a pair of KM184s. Then you have the omni option, all cardioid options, and the Straus packet option - plus two nice spots when you do an omni main pair. Most flexible solution, I guess.
If you're into MS, the Schoeps exchangeable capsule thing is the way to go, as you can add a single MK8 whenever you feel the need and have the budget.

Depends a bit on the kind of music you want to record, too. And, yes, it does depend on the rooms you expect to be recording in most often - you need to listen yourself and decide if you
- like the room's sound
- need the LF response an omni gives you
- need the directivity a cardioid gives you
- need spaciousness
- need precise image
and, as you most times will need all, find out what your priorities are.

The least important question is if you use free field or diffuse field omnis. Free field omnis are diffuse field omnis with on-board EQ.

[MBishopSFX]

My usual main "pair."

.

[Corran]

Something about a disembodied head floating 13ft above the audience just strikes me as funny.

Around here I get enough complaints about black SDC's, I'd love to put that up and see what happens.

[Adebar]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Maybe you didn't find the right answer becase there is no "best microphone".

Exactly - no best microphone. Thats why I use depending on the situation
Schoeps MK2s
Schoeps MK21
Schoeps MK4
Neumann KM83 (or 131)
Sometimes Neumann U89
Gefell UMT70S
Josephson C617SET

In general I prefer omni (pressure) capsules, but sometimes I even use LD capsules in figure 8 or omni. Of course one could use both, fugure 8 + pressure omni together. Haven´t tried it as main pair yet, but the Josephson C700A could be a real good solution - but not inexpensive.
http://www.josephson.com/pdf/srs7.pdf