Live Gig Recording Sessions @ Bars: Monitor Bleed

royceg · 7th July 2009

Im getting tons of bleed obviously when im recording this gig. I know placement helps and i was thinking of taking care of "cleaning" and sweetening the mix in post, but does anyone have any tricks to help during the tracking process and some post programs to use to help with noise?

I know phase can help but will that affect my overall blend between tracks? (Im also not sure of the best settings in protools, if say i wanted to use gates and compressors during tracking of 16 channels.)

So any monitor advice?

And then secondly, any H/W buffer, Cache Settings and Overall Settings to help balance Protools for tracking and a few plugins?

Murton · 7th July 2009

Position your monitors according to the polar patterns of the microphones around them, this not only helps reduce feedback but will reduce spill.

Phase is pretty hard to use to eliminate monitors but could be used to great extend with some careful planning to position mic's 180 degrees out of phase with the monitors, IR reverb the monitors and see what spill it gets out.

high and low passing some things may help reduce spill between microphones.

royceg · 7th July 2009

Im familiar with using off-axis rejection on my mics. But the stage is small and the monitors the FOH guy uses is not moveable.
So, im guessing bleed is inevitable. I guess i'll just try to even out the bleed and sweeten the mix in post. Any good plug-ins for noise?

I am however unfamiliar with IR. Any insight?

Roland · 7th July 2009

For starters you don't want to be playing with phase to remove sound leakage from your recordings, IMHO you will do more damage than good. Mics with tight polar control, properly deployed will do the job. Bleed is always inevitable, particularly with on-stage monitors, the trick is to set good on stage levels for the band without the monitors and use the monitors to re-enforce that sound so the band can hear themselves. It sounds too me that this is possibly the monitors/stage sound is too loud, or out of balance. This is a typical amateur mistake. I've heard and done plenty of live recordings with wedges and sidefills yet have had little problem producing a good final mix even with the bleed.

Regards

Roland

royceg · 8th July 2009

Thnx so much for the input. I feel utilizing the mics to the best of their ability will be my only option. Sadly the FOH guys are somewhat amateur and the stage is definitely not constructed the proper way. The stage sound actually isn't too loud its that the room we're in is so small.

A thing that is weird is that when i solo each channel while tracking the audio is clean and tight with very little bleed. all together though, the guitar disappears or becomes muddy as well as the vocals. My thoughts were phase, but i assume tracking out of phase won't help. Post will be my haven for this one then, hopefully.

mixedupsteve · 8th July 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by royceg

A thing that is weird is that when i solo each channel while tracking the audio is clean and tight with very little bleed. all together though, the guitar disappears or becomes muddy as well as the vocals. My thoughts were phase, but i assume tracking out of phase won't help. Post will be my haven for this one then, hopefully.

This isn't unusual at all. In mixdown don't be afraid to make eq cuts on instruments leaving them their own space in the spectrum and nothing more. When you solo the instrument it might not sound great but when you put the whole thing together it will be fine. Don't track with compressors. It will make your problem worse.

royceg · 9th July 2009

Hey cool. Thnx for the input. I def went through the gauntlet in school so i'm familiar with proper tracking.

Although, any insights or tricks with singers moving to and from the mics? I always have to ride the gain while they sing and doing it through 2 sets of 30-45 minutes is rough.

But cool thnx again for the response. I just want to know if there were any tricks i didn't know about for bleed from monitors.

royceg · 11th July 2009

would a gate help with the noise floor on the vocals?

**Remoteness** · 12th July 2009

Have you checked out these threads yet?
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/tags/virtual-gobo/

maxpidge · 12th July 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by royceg

would a gate help with the noise floor on the vocals?

don't track live with any plug-ins, fix things in post...

royceg · 15th July 2009

Max

Thnx for the input. I knew not to, but i wasn't sure if anyone had any tricks up their sleeve that i was unaware of. Good looking out!

---------------------------------

juanpz · 20th July 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by royceg

Im getting tons of bleed obviously when im recording this gig. I know placement helps and i was thinking of taking care of "cleaning" and sweetening the mix in post, but does anyone have any tricks to help during the tracking process and some post programs to use to help with noise?

I know phase can help but will that affect my overall blend between tracks? (Im also not sure of the best settings in protools, if say i wanted to use gates and compressors during tracking of 16 channels.)

So any monitor advice?

And then secondly, any H/W buffer, Cache Settings and Overall Settings to help balance Protools for tracking and a few plugins?

If I were you I would concentrate on reducing the stage volume. Why is it so loud in the venue that you record in? Do they play a heavy rockn roll that requires you to crank up the monitor mixes?

Most bars and small venues that I go and record in are small enough so that the only thing that the performers need to hear is the vocals on stage.

Try In ear Monitors if possible?
Mic with better off axis rejection?
Monitor wedges that have a better spread, ie no hot spots?
Multiple wedge setup?

There is so many things that you can experiment with to try and reduce the bleed. Just experiment

Don't be afraid to confront the band (nicely) to see if they can do anything during their performance to help you out!

juanpz · 20th July 2009

Another .02 cents

Stay away from using gates on any type of vocal

royceg · 24th July 2009

Cool thanks for the feedback. A little too late though as my sessions are now in its third week. Hahah. But its all good. I definitely tried your suggestions with the use of Remoteness' input.

So far so good. And a good thing im stoked about is that my FOH guy is reducive in his mixing technique where he never adds just cuts things in monitors for the band reqeusts.

I did utilize my stage better and my bleed now is minimal which is awesome. I can still find better ways but so far so good. Thnx again!

7th July 2009	#1
royceg Gear Head Joined: Jun 2009 Location: Guam Posts: 60 Thread Starter	Live Gig Recording Sessions @ Bars: Monitor Bleed Im getting tons of bleed obviously when im recording this gig. I know placement helps and i was thinking of taking care of "cleaning" and sweetening the mix in post, but does anyone have any tricks to help during the tracking process and some post programs to use to help with noise? I know phase can help but will that affect my overall blend between tracks? (Im also not sure of the best settings in protools, if say i wanted to use gates and compressors during tracking of 16 channels.) So any monitor advice? And then secondly, any H/W buffer, Cache Settings and Overall Settings to help balance Protools for tracking and a few plugins?

12th July 2009	#9
Remoteness Super Moderator Joined: Aug 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 7,405	Have you checked out these threads yet? http://www.gearslutz.com/board/tags/virtual-gobo/ __________________ Steve Remote AuraSonicLtd.com the home of ASL Mobile & Location Production Remoteness on the Linkedin Network What about my Facebook Profile? Remoteness on Myspace

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7th July 2009	#2
Murton Gear maniac Joined: Feb 2009 Posts: 297	Position your monitors according to the polar patterns of the microphones around them, this not only helps reduce feedback but will reduce spill. Phase is pretty hard to use to eliminate monitors but could be used to great extend with some careful planning to position mic's 180 degrees out of phase with the monitors, IR reverb the monitors and see what spill it gets out. high and low passing some things may help reduce spill between microphones.

7th July 2009	#4
Roland Lives for gear Joined: Oct 2002 Location: St Leonards on Sea, England Posts: 2,133 2 Reviews written	For starters you don't want to be playing with phase to remove sound leakage from your recordings, IMHO you will do more damage than good. Mics with tight polar control, properly deployed will do the job. Bleed is always inevitable, particularly with on-stage monitors, the trick is to set good on stage levels for the band without the monitors and use the monitors to re-enforce that sound so the band can hear themselves. It sounds too me that this is possibly the monitors/stage sound is too loud, or out of balance. This is a typical amateur mistake. I've heard and done plenty of live recordings with wedges and sidefills yet have had little problem producing a good final mix even with the bleed. Regards Roland

8th July 2009	#5
royceg Gear Head Joined: Jun 2009 Location: Guam Posts: 60 Thread Starter	Thnx so much for the input. I feel utilizing the mics to the best of their ability will be my only option. Sadly the FOH guys are somewhat amateur and the stage is definitely not constructed the proper way. The stage sound actually isn't too loud its that the room we're in is so small. A thing that is weird is that when i solo each channel while tracking the audio is clean and tight with very little bleed. all together though, the guitar disappears or becomes muddy as well as the vocals. My thoughts were phase, but i assume tracking out of phase won't help. Post will be my haven for this one then, hopefully.

9th July 2009	#7
royceg Gear Head Joined: Jun 2009 Location: Guam Posts: 60 Thread Starter	Hey cool. Thnx for the input. I def went through the gauntlet in school so i'm familiar with proper tracking. Although, any insights or tricks with singers moving to and from the mics? I always have to ride the gain while they sing and doing it through 2 sets of 30-45 minutes is rough. But cool thnx again for the response. I just want to know if there were any tricks i didn't know about for bleed from monitors.

11th July 2009	#8
royceg Gear Head Joined: Jun 2009 Location: Guam Posts: 60 Thread Starter	would a gate help with the noise floor on the vocals?

15th July 2009	#11
royceg Gear Head Joined: Jun 2009 Location: Guam Posts: 60 Thread Starter	Max Thnx for the input. I knew not to, but i wasn't sure if anyone had any tricks up their sleeve that i was unaware of. Good looking out! ---------------------------------

20th July 2009	#13
juanpz Gear Head Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 58	Another .02 cents Stay away from using gates on any type of vocal

24th July 2009	#14
royceg Gear Head Joined: Jun 2009 Location: Guam Posts: 60 Thread Starter	Cool thanks for the feedback. A little too late though as my sessions are now in its third week. Hahah. But its all good. I definitely tried your suggestions with the use of Remoteness' input. So far so good. And a good thing im stoked about is that my FOH guy is reducive in his mixing technique where he never adds just cuts things in monitors for the band reqeusts. I did utilize my stage better and my bleed now is minimal which is awesome. I can still find better ways but so far so good. Thnx again!