Edirol R44 preamp challenge

[springer]

With the hope that the TRS plugs actually by-pass the unit's preamps, I did a little test the other night on a jazz duo.
2 AKG c480's taped together on piano
2 BK 4011's taped together on Bass

One of each went thru dav and other stright into the XLR of the R44. Can you tell the difference?
Pics and results to follow Monday/Tuesday

[Douglas Whates]

Both signal chains sound great and, as far as I can tell from such a short clip, nice sounding instruments and players... which is obviously the most important thing!

edit - strange that it still says your clips have been viewed "0 times", even though I downloaded them both twice!

[Dave Ferris]

Hard to get my ear around it in 13 seconds but I'm going to take a non-engineer guess--B was the DAV pre?

They both did sound good. I'm looking at the Oade modded R-44 for recording my D and vocal.

[springer]

Thanks to Norse for pointing reminding me that there is noise in the right channel of the 'B' example. It was the DAV, I swapped it out for another channel later. I hope I don't have a bad channel in my DAV...
So B was the DAV.

Does anyone know for sure if the TRS by-passes the preamp section. The schematic doesn't appear to show this and I am not that good with schematics anyway...

As a testament to the HP amp I was able to isolate the noise in the right channel and fix it so the HP amp is good enough for me.

[NorseHorse]

I do not think the TRS "bypasses" the preamp section like we're used to describing. Otherwise the gain settings would change depending on whether you had an XLR or TRS plugged in.

Do NOT, however, confuse the inputs on the R-44 with the inputs on let's say a standard mixer (or my Focusrite Saffire). On regular mixers and preamps, the MIC-in is different from the LINE-in because the MIC automatically adds 10-20dB gain even on the lowest settings. That is to say, it's ALWAYS amplifying. With an input like the R-44, the 6db stepped gain structure allows the dual XLR-TRS jack to accept a wide range of signals, both LINE (+4) and MIC. That is to say, it's NOT always amplifying and when the input is set to +4 it's a LINE input. With continuously variable circuits or circuits with smaller steps, accomodating such a wide dynamic range is more difficult to do so separate LINE inputs are created.

It should be noted that the TRS jacks do not pass phantom power. But if you have a dynamic microphone that has a TRS output, the R-44 will treat it just the same as if it's plugged into the XLR.

Springer, thanks a lot for the sample above. I was able to pick them apart quite readily, but side-by-side with the DAV, the R44 preamps are even nicer than I realized. Excellent shoot-out.

[springer]

One other thing - I had the DAV with -20db pad on and the r44 gain at about 9:00 with the middle knob at noon as always. Here's the mic setup for those interested.

[Dave Ferris]

So the R-44 was a NON modded Oade model?

So the Oade mod on the R-44 will make it sound "that much better" ?

[springer]

Hi Dave,
Yes mine is a stock unit and I think Norse has the Oade modded one. I am very impressed with the sound of mine so far.

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by springer

One other thing - I had the DAV with -20db pad on and the r44 gain at about 9:00 with the middle knob at noon as always. Here's the mic setup for those interested.

This means the signal from the DAV also had 12db of amplification from the R-44 (ie. "-8db"). To get the most out of any external pres, make sure the R-44 sensitivity knob is all the way to the left --> 7 o'clock ("+4db").

Also, the PAD on the DAV effects the input stage, so unless you have an extremely hot input signal or are trying to "drive" the preamp to get a certain sound, you shouldn't use it. It's different from an output trim pot. If you ever pad the signal for the sake of a softer output, your signal to noise ratio will suffer somewhat.

Cheers.

[tapermark2006]

Is that the Laurelthirst Public House?

Originally Posted by springer

One other thing - I had the DAV with -20db pad on and the r44 gain at about 9:00 with the middle knob at noon as always. Here's the mic setup for those interested.

[springer]

Hey Norse - you mean all the way to the left is +4db? There is no 6:00 - there is 5:00 and 7:00, and I take it we are talking about "sensitivity' (outer knob).

tapermark - nope it is Wilf's.

[Ozpeter]

So the Oade mod on the R-44 will make it sound "that much better" ?

Well, different - "better" would be subjective. The Oade mods seem to be based on Mr Oade's personal preferences rather than on measurements - nothing wrong with that as I don't doubt he's got a fine set of ears, but my taste might (or might not) differ.

Note that not all the R-44 preamp steps are 6dB - one is 12dB.

[springer]

OK - after some investigation over on tapersection, I found that the outer knob (what they term "sensitivity") is the "inverse of Gain". So the +4db (7:00) should have been the setting I used with the external pre.
...it will be next time.

[Gutbucket]

The only way to bypass the input preamp stage on the R-44 is to use the digital SPDIF input to channels 1 & 2. You can minimize the contribution of the analog input stage by adjusting the outer sensitivity knob to +4db as mentioned, but the signal still passes through it.

[Dave Ferris]

Originally Posted by Gutbucket

The only way to bypass the input preamp stage on the R-44 is to use the digital SPDIF input to channels 1 & 2. You can minimize the contribution of the analog input stage by adjusting the outer sensitivity knob to +4db as mentioned, but the signal still passes through it.

That's just like my old Marantz CD recorder. For the time being I'm going to try that with my newly purchased Spider and see what the results will be.

At $1100 or whatever, that R-44 sounds surprisingly very good to my ears. I always had thought of Edirol stuff has being kinda junky. Who knew..?

[Gutbucket]

The build quality fits the budget price, but the sound is quite good. Even the little hand-held Edirol R-09, the 1st Edirol product I'd used extensively, sounds very good with an external preamp and line level input. I previously had the same impression of Edirol gear, but i've been quite impressed with both recorders. It seems they've put the budgeted dollars into decent engineering. It's not a professional grade Sound Devices machine, but a very good value for the dollar.

[leddy]

Originally Posted by Gutbucket

The build quality fits the budget price, but the sound is quite good. Even the little hand-held Edirol R-09, the 1st Edirol product I'd used extensively, sounds very good with an external preamp and line level input. I previously had the same impression of Edirol gear, but i've been quite impressed with both recorders. It seems they've put the budgeted dollars into decent engineering. It's not a professional grade Sound Devices machine, but a very good value for the dollar.

The R44 looks and feels much more solid than in predecessor, the R4. I've owned a pair of R44's (and sold my R4) since shortly after they came out. Never a problem. With two of them, I can do 8 tracks or do 4 and have a back-up unit on hand.

I've never owned a Nagra or Sound Devices, but I often wonder what you really gain (besides time code) by spending several times the price of the R44.

[Ozpeter]

I've never owned a Nagra or Sound Devices, but I often wonder what you really gain (besides time code) by spending several times the price of the R44.

As far as I know there are no in-the-field real-world comparative tests, properly conducted, of these devices, so it's hard to know. I think it would be generally accepted that there's a 'law of diminishing returns' thing happening at a certain point when spending money on audio gear - audible differences can be subtle, cost differences can be painful.

[leddy]

Originally Posted by Ozpeter

I think it would be generally accepted that there's a 'law of diminishing returns' thing happening at a certain point when spending money on audio gear

Certainly, but there's spending twice as much to get the last 10%, and there's spending four times as much to get the last 2%. Not sure where this one falls...

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by leddy

I've never owned a Nagra or Sound Devices, but I often wonder what you really gain (besides time code) by spending several times the price of the R44.

Nagra VI - Superb mic. pres that can rival the best esoteric ones, the best DAC / ADC around, top notch build quality, reliability and a pro machine that can be used day in, day out for years.

And, I don't really want to spend £3,000 on a mic. and plug it into a £400 recorder.


But - for the price - I *do* recommend the R-44 highly.

[springer]

Hi John,
I think we all wish for a Nagra... practicality rears it's ugly head sometimes tho. On the contrary, I think that is EXACTLY where the money focus should be - on the mics. IMHO


I think I will post a better example as this selection had some noise in the DAV line. More later...

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by John Willett

And, I don't really want to spend £3,000 on a mic. and plug it into a £400 recorder.

Just curious: which £3,000 mic do you have?

Buying top shelf mic's and running them into "a little lesser than" gear makes good sense to me.

The mic's will be around much longer than the stuff they're plugged in to.

[Dave 99]

Hi all,

Total newbie here, this is my 1st post on this site.
Am looking to buy a portable recorder and thanks to the mp3s posted here, I think the Edirol R-44 is what I'm looking for to record live surf bands & for other apps.

I was using an Olympus LS-10 pocket recorder with an external mic, sometimes synched with camcorder, now making a big upgrade. I have no experience yet with decent equipment.

Do users seem to like the Edirol over a similarly priced unit, like the Tascam ?

The only thing I may not like is the design, with those 4 knobs sticking out that can bust off or turn by accident while recording. Anyone have a problem with the design ?

Has anyone ever done a direct comparison between the stock Edirol R-44 & the Oade modded ?

Thanks