Live mixers using waay too much sub for show?

[glenn Taylor]

I went and watched a country rock band I am going to record in my studio next week today. Outdoor 4 th of july concert 4 thousand people. Drums,bass,acc,e guit steel guit and singer. They were pretty good but the bass was killing me. is this the new sound or a problem of too much subs? Has anyone else experinced this at a concert before?
GT.

[larry b]

I dont know but it's def not as bad as way too much tinny high-end.

[andersmv]

I'm finding that to be true, it seems like more and more bass is being used. Most of the time it seems like systems have too many sub, especially in mega church settings. It kills me to see the nice equipment some churches have and how unbalanced their mixes are, I prefer the mix I do at my church with no sub at all and crappy gear... (I'm not saying that to boast about my skills, I'm saying it to drive the point home that to me the subs are sooo overused at many churches that it just kills what would of been a decent mix. Turn the subs down about 3 or 5 DB and we are good!)

[glenn Taylor]

Don't get me wrong I am a bassplayer. I like fat lows. The guy in the band is a great bass player but he and the drums kick were covering up the lead singer and his accoutic guitar. I made a field mix and came home with the lows rolled down on my i tunes and I was able to hear the original songs in a more natural light. Its's like if the sub amp master volume should be set at 3 they run it at 6. Maybe it's the new sound? But for a straight on country rock band?
GT.

[arkmabat]

I was at this dinky little Blue Oyster Cult concert at the fair last year and MAN!!! The bass was just crankin'...I'd say it's the new norm...all the drunk people around me couldn't tell one way from another anyway though...but it sounded GREAT! what a shame they missed it...

[la grange]

many reasons could be the problem but I don't think it is a trend that is appearing as a sudden.
1) could be a problem on the day of the show, cross over malfunction, top end boxes down.
2) the type of boxes used, ex: adamson has lot more low end than Meyer
3) the engineer didn't take into account the public during his sound check and the top end was reduced.
4) the engineer was not so good.
5) the band/producer wanted the sound to thump.

the list of reason can go on but I don't think it is a rend at all...I hope so anyway!

Oli

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by arkmabat

I was at this dinky little Blue Oyster Cult concert at the fair last year and MAN!!! The bass was just crankin'...I'd say it's the new norm...all the drunk people around me couldn't tell one way from another anyway though...but it sounded GREAT! what a shame they missed it...

The ORIGINAL FOH guy for BOC,George Geranious, was a good friend of mine - GREAT sound man. I have no idea who they have now, but I'd bet all the money in my banik account that he can't touch George - or even get close......

[studjo]

aw come on guys the equipement is never a problem when you have too much subs. How difficult may it be to tune the system for a nice bass response? That's why they have those nice 31 band EQs at FOH and if it's really out of hand turn down the amps ...
There are places where the bass is booming from stage because of a loud player and bad acoustics but in all other cases: turn down the low end.
I mixed a show 2 days ago where the rental company insisted in using the Yamaha Subkick. I told em that I won't use it for that kind of music but they really wanted to hear it. So I mixed the show and they were amazed that I cut the subkick at 50Hz - they asked me why I did that and I told em if they think I need more sublows
Some guys just need their trousers making the music ...

Jo

[jasonraboin]

Actually, getting even sub response in a venue is one of the most difficult things that a system tech has to do. There are many heated discussions and threads about the best way to do this. People are trying out many different sub arrangements, with out of phase subs facing backwards to create a cardiod sub array, flown subs, etc. There is a good article about the system Metallica is using in the round on their current tour. There is also an article by Dave Rat that sheds a lot of light on the subject. I would check those out before assuming that it's as easy as reaching for the 50 hz on the graph.

That said, I do think that there is a tendency to use a lot, some would say too much, sub in live concerts. I try very hard when mixing not to fall prey to the "lead kick drum" thing that is in fashion these days. I think what may be hard for studio engineers to grasp, though, is that even though so much of the same gear is being used, live mixing is a very different sport. Especially for a rock / country act. The notes come past and are gone for ever. You are working in an environment where often inebriated people are looking to have a good time, and a thumping bass gets them moving. It's more about creating energy and excitement and less about creating a timeless piece of art.

[-Noodles-]

I find that a lot of American engineers use WAY more Sub than UK engineers, but a to why that is ; I have little idea.

Seems to be something either in the cultural differences, or the systems that are being hired out by the companies (read; spec'd wrong).

[js1]

Lots of bass, fine. Uncontrolled, ringing, muddy low end, not cool.

I wear hearing protection at most live shows. Cutting the level down 15-25 db (I have different plugs depending on the assault) makes it easier for the brain to process the music correctly. The number of shows where I hear the kick drum ringing on the verge of feeding back on every kick is surprising. Combined with muddy no definition bass masking the other instruments.

The worst offenders are touring bands playing 1000 people shows where the audience stands (not really a 1000 "seater") and they have a big rig that could cover a room 3 times the size.

js

[Jim vanBergen]

It's not just the soundman. Many of the acts I work with expect to hear MASSIVE low end onstage to confirm the sub is "correct" from their position.

Most of us who mix live sound tend to expect systems with a 2:1, sometimes a 4:1 sub to mid/high ratio.

All I expect is to be able to push 125dB from the sub where I can push 120dB from the mid-high.

The key is knowing how to build a mix, how to isolate instruments, and blend them together.

Once you get past the equipment, the acoustics of the room, the effect of the audience, then you have to deal with the politics of personalities- artist, their entourage, managers, tour managers, production people, promoters, label execs, etc etc etc.

The best thing I have found, is to find as many people as you can who are working (ask for management) and say, "I am a professional in the sound industry, and I find the levels very painful, and obviously far beyond OSHA's specified acceptance levels. Who is liable for the damages by this production?" Once this gets thru, you can usually watch the levels drop.

I have also been able to walk out to FOH, say "the subs are killing me over here, can you have a listen for a sec, or send your system tech?" and either 1)watch as a guy with a tablet walk over, make an adjustment, and walk away, 2) get ignored, or 3) the guy says "f#ck you." But I usually feel better anyway.

When I'm mixing, I have usually had someone from the artist tell me exactly how they want it to sound, and am in that "zone". But I tend to mix more quietly than many other mixers I know- I work within the acoustic, not in spite of it.
Cheers-

JvB

Originally Posted by glissando

Actually this is a disturbing trend that has been going on for quite a long time. A lot of Techs and FOH guys seem to think that more sub is better. I tend to think in terms of how little sub can you get away with and still have the energy of an exciting show. Too much bottom can eat up your guitars and vocals in a hurry. Those are two things that I find lacking most when I go see others mix.


A couple of things for the OP

80-100 Hz usually deserves a good cut (on the FOH graphs) in a lot of cases...that is the area that can kill the definition of your mix...and is usually a crossover point in the PA...

Most guys/gals are pushing the sub too much

Sub is felt, you don't need a ton to accomplish your goal there

To the guy who posted cutting 50 hz on the kik...way to stick to your guns...I cut low on kik drums a lot in clubs...if I see a boost on a kik, usually there is something wrong


also this is slightly related but something that can help keep things in perspective...try to mix @ 100db (A Weighted!) 102 with peaks at 104 is loud enough for any show...mixing at 96 outside is also a good excercise and can help keep your sub in check

[studjo]

e 96dB is an exercise? I try to mix at that level all the time and yes I fight with the level coming from stage but I don't destroy my ears or the ears of the audience for money. I know I'm never over 100dB on any show I mix - if they want more they have to hire someone else

oh and tuning a system isn't easy but keeping the subs in place is pretty easy - it's called mixing

Originally Posted by glissando

Actually this is a disturbing trend that has been going on for quite a long time. A lot of Techs and FOH guys seem to think that more sub is better. I tend to think in terms of how little sub can you get away with and still have the energy of an exciting show. Too much bottom can eat up your guitars and vocals in a hurry. Those are two things that I find lacking most when I go see others mix.


A couple of things for the OP

80-100 Hz usually deserves a good cut (on the FOH graphs) in a lot of cases...that is the area that can kill the definition of your mix...and is usually a crossover point in the PA...

Most guys/gals are pushing the sub too much

Sub is felt, you don't need a ton to accomplish your goal there

To the guy who posted cutting 50 hz on the kik...way to stick to your guns...I cut low on kik drums a lot in clubs...if I see a boost on a kik, usually there is something wrong


also this is slightly related but something that can help keep things in perspective...try to mix @ 100db (A Weighted!) 102 with peaks at 104 is loud enough for any show...mixing at 96 outside is also a good excercise and can help keep your sub in check

[roadsweeper]

Check out the Iration Steppas sound system, then you'll know what too much bass is. It literally makes your jeans push against the front of your legs. But that's for dub so I suppose it's allowed.

[John Eppstein]

Interesting that all you guys are bitching about the low end - I hear a lot of shows that are just the opposite -WAY too much upper mid - painful, dangerous levels. It makes me wonder if the guy mixing has midrange and high frequency hearing damage......

That being said, there are a lot of systems around these days where the system doesn't seem to work well with the room - you can walk the hall and hear the room modes - way too much bass here, none at all over there.... In a situation like that the location of FOH may not be (usually isn't) at all representative of the overall room sound - and some rooms have acoustics that are simply impossible.

I realize that it's probably heresy to some of you but I don't think that a lot of the new line array systems really sound that great. The sight lines are lovely and the systems are more compact and easier to truck than they used to be, but the actual sound quality doesn't seem as good. Some systems are using phase adjustment for "steering" - I don't see how you can tinker with the phase response without screwing up the sound.....

I thought the comment one guy made about American sound engineers mixing more bass heavy than Brits to be interesting - back when I was touring in the late '70s to early '80s it was just the opposite - British acts would tour with HUGE Martin systems with stacks of subs up to the roof..... TASCO, ML, Brittania Row.......

[studjo]

90% of the time I work on Line Arrays I whish I'd be standing in front of a nice EAW 850 stack. Line Arrays are great if they are built to the highest standards (Meyer) and are working in big enough Venues IMVHO - both pretty rare around my parts

Jo

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by glissando

Either way, walking up to them in the middle of a show only serves your ego.

I see your point, and should have made myself clear: if I'm not mixing the show, I'm often the audio production manager and they are the visiting mixer, so I know the rig and they are looking to me for information on whats working.

But I suppose we will have to disagree on this, on shows I am not involved with, I have in the past had several thanks from other engineers from pointing out when there is a system imbalance, but a lot has to do with politics and treading lightly in THEIR best interest. I'm not usually a total insensitive prick to people, no matter how I sound in my posts. You're welcome to have your opinion of me.

Originally Posted by glissando

You are both right about line arrays in the wrong application...but that really doesn't have much to do with sub info...and yes mixing in North America @ 96 db is an exercise..and a good one...and most shows are plagued with too much sub John not mid highs, although sometimes that happens of course. It most definitely is a mindset of the FOH engineer....JVB, you should know better than to criticize the FOH engineer during a show unless they are a friend...even then buddy, are you trying to prove something with that. If you do mix live for a living, you should know full well that they are either dealing with shitty circumstances or they are just plain mixing shitty that night. Either way, walking up to them in the middle of a show only serves your ego.

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by jasonraboin

Actually, getting even sub response in a venue is one of the most difficult things that a system tech has to do. There are many heated discussions and threads about the best way to do this. People are trying out many different sub arrangements, with out of phase subs facing backwards to create a cardiod sub array, flown subs, etc. There is a good article about the system Metallica is using in the round on their current tour. There is also an article by Dave Rat that sheds a lot of light on the subject. I would check those out before assuming that it's as easy as reaching for the 50 hz on the graph.

That said, I do think that there is a tendency to use a lot, some would say too much, sub in live concerts. I try very hard when mixing not to fall prey to the "lead kick drum" thing that is in fashion these days. I think what may be hard for studio engineers to grasp, though, is that even though so much of the same gear is being used, live mixing is a very different sport. Especially for a rock / country act. The notes come past and are gone for ever. You are working in an environment where often inebriated people are looking to have a good time, and a thumping bass gets them moving. It's more about creating energy and excitement and less about creating a timeless piece of art.

[edwinhurwitz]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

I realize that it's probably heresy to some of you but I don't think that a lot of the new line array systems really sound that great. The sight lines are lovely and the systems are more compact and easier to truck than they used to be, but the actual sound quality doesn't seem as good. Some systems are using phase adjustment for "steering" - I don't see how you can tinker with the phase response without screwing up the sound.....

I'm a touring bass player and I hate line arrays. To my ear, they've done to live music what mp3s have done for recorded music. They are way more convenient, they can sound OK at best, but most of them sound pretty terrible.

I think where the line array principle should be applied is the low end more than the high end. The reason for this is that if you stack your subs one wide and higher than the longest wave you want throw, the physics of the system change. Instead of propagating as a portion of a sphere and dropping off exponentially, the sound propagates as a portion of a cylinder and drops off linearly. It also reduces spill into the rafters. This was discovered back in 1973-4 by the Grateful Dead's Wall of Sound and this aspect of it worked well. I heard them do it with a more modern PA outdoors in the summer of 1988 and it was the best bass I've heard before or since. Really clear, present, even everywhere you went and although it was full enough to feel like the ground was shaking, it wasn't too loud and didn't interfere with the rest of the mix. When you got close to the subs, it didn't kill you as they weren't relying on the speakers close to the ground to provide all the sound. It isn't as efficient to truck around (two 45' stacks of subs is a lot of stuff to carry around), but it really works.

I also wonder how much of the low end assault factor is because the subs are cranked to the point of distortion.

The guitar players in my band (who come from primarily the bluegrass world) hate subs. I think it's like the argument about gun control. Subs don't wreck the sound, people do. In any case, the answer to the thread title is yes. For the most part, subs are way too cranked at most shows in the US.

Edwin

Edwin

[fifthcircle]

I agree with the statements about many of the line array systems out there. Many of the popular ones really don't sound particularly good. I have heard some decent ones (Meyer being a favorite), but the sound tends to get pretty nasty off axis of the cabinet. If the mix position is out of the throw of some of these popular systems, you are going to want to push what you can hear and control- ie the subs.

That brings up another issue I've heard with a bunch of the arrays. There is a lack of low and low-mid in the sound and that forces the engineer to move cross-over points and use more sub to compensate for the lack of sound above. As a result, we get a more sub-heavy sound.

Just a thought.

--Ben

[Roland]

To be honest, I've used differing systems over the last 28 years, starting with bass bins, mid bins, HF horn systems from the 70's, through the all in a box systems like the Hill audio M3's and M6's, early Turbosound systems, Meyer MSL 3's, EAW, D&B C4 etc right through to the latest line array systems. Nowadays we are spoilt, certainly in comparison to what was available 15 years ago. With modern digital control, steerable arrays and Simm and Smaart etc, there is no reason why modern systems shouldn't sound great. Of course in poor acoustics, even with the latest kit there are always going to be issues and the digital control systems can help, but they can't change that.

Often with concerts, I see too much of the wrong type of gear, deployed in the wrong way. Line arrays can be great in the right given circumstances, however, because the term "line array" is such a watchword these days, they end up being used in situations where a box system might be better.

Line arrays from the top manufacturers like D&B J series, Meyer, L Acoustic, Martin Longbow, are all capable of fantastic sound when set-up properly, but they need careful system teching and can't compensate for a hack on the desk. Too much bass on systems, too much kick drum, I often think is a result of the FOH engineer doing "his" thing.

Regards


Roland

[tamasdragon]

One answer is insane loudness. The louder the show, the more low you need to compensate the mid and high freqs, or it'll hurt.
Badly tuned system are another reason. There are so much cause before you reach the foh engineer...
Tamas Dragon

[Roland]

Originally Posted by tamasdragon

One answer is insane loudness. The louder the show, the more low you need to compensate the mid and high freqs, or it'll hurt.
Badly tuned system are another reason. There are so much cause before you reach the foh engineer...
Tamas Dragon

It's not always as simple as that though. To start with you need more low end to carry a show, but as the system gets larger because of the way bass carries and HF rolls off over distance you get to the stage where you have to add more mid/tops and less subs. There is little excuse (IMHO) these days for bad deployment, particularly on larger systems, as all the major manufacturers have software for calculating array configurations and with a good system tool such as Smaart and an engineer with good ears there should be little problem. As pointed out above, that doesn't stop a FOH engineer whacking up the bass end on the mix, because that's how he wants to make it sound, this is totally down to the FOH mans POV.

Regards


Roland

[locutus]

Originally Posted by Roland

With modern digital control, steerable arrays and Simm and Smaart etc, there is no reason why modern systems shouldn't sound great. Of course in poor acoustics, even with the latest kit there are always going to be issues and the digital control systems can help, but they can't change that.

I am not sure if the digital toys are not often more of a problem than a solution. I see so many people who seem to just assume the magic box will fix all their problems for them. They don't understand or worse, don't care, about acoustics, and think they can just crank on a digital knob to make it all better. Simply setting the system up correctly in the first place, understanding and working with the acoustics, would make most problems go away, and the processing can be used for fine tuning like it is supposed to be.

[dafe]

Originally Posted by edwinhurwitz

For the most part, subs are way too cranked at most shows in the US.

Edwin

Edwin

Same story in the Old World. Sub basses kill the remaining area almost entirely, to the point you can't discern instruments at all. Plain flat sound at horrible volumes. Too much "club music" (whatever this muzak is being called..)?
Had it with a 10 piece reggae/ska outfit (actually good) recently. Unbelievable.

[fallforward]

i hate that most modern rock shows I have seen lately sound like a bass drum concerto. Everything else is mud, can't hear the guitar solos, can't understand the singer -but that kick drum is there!

[Roland]

Originally Posted by locutus

I am not sure if the digital toys are not often more of a problem than a solution. I see so many people who seem to just assume the magic box will fix all their problems for them. They don't understand or worse, don't care, about acoustics, and think they can just crank on a digital knob to make it all better. Simply setting the system up correctly in the first place, understanding and working with the acoustics, would make most problems go away, and the processing can be used for fine tuning like it is supposed to be.

I don't agree, I take credit for comming up with the original concept of digital speaker management and BSS put Omnidrive on the market 18 months after a conversation I had with one of their technical bods at a trade show. It's not a cure all, but DSP processing can make systems perform at near their optimum, before that all we had were simple dividing circuits with filters on them. Now the signal can be taken into the digital domain, delayed, filtered and eq'd as necessary with little or no sonic penalty. With the right measurements, a good system can be made to perform exceptionally. Prior to this systems were without doubt much more crude.

Of course there are always morons that can ignore the measurements and go entirely their own way, but I would honestly say whenever I hear problems with systems it's usually down to the FOH guy or the system not being properly teched out (i.e. no real system engineer being employed, just being winged by FOH).

You go to any major show, festival, large touring concert and the amount of technical work that goes into making those sound rigs work would baffle most people.

Regards



Roland

[locutus]

Originally Posted by Roland

It's not a cure all, but DSP processing can make systems perform at near their optimum, before that all we had were simple dividing circuits with filters on them. Now the signal can be taken into the digital domain, delayed, filtered and eq'd as necessary with little or no sonic penalty. With the right measurements, a good system can be made to perform exceptionally. Prior to this systems were without doubt much more crude.

Of course there are always morons that can ignore the measurements and go entirely their own way, but I would honestly say whenever I hear problems with systems it's usually down to the FOH guy or the system not being properly teched out (i.e. no real system engineer being employed, just being winged by FOH).

You go to any major show, festival, large touring concert and the amount of technical work that goes into making those sound rigs work would baffle most people.

I agree that the power of the digital processing offers a lot of power and can be a great thing. It offers a level of precision and sound sculpting never before available. And at the large budget shows things are usually well done.

I guess I was reacting more to the small to medium size shows I tend to see more often where they don't have a proper system engineer, or anyone else that seems knowledgeable enough. So often I see people not even attempting to start with basic acoustics. Fixing some really simple things before you start playing with processing can make everything so much better in the end.

It is like the "we'll fix it in the mix" attitude. Yes, DSP in the hands of a master can work miracles. But it would be so much better if the mics were just positioned right to begin with.

My point is you need both. DSP should not displace acoustical common sense, but compliment it. Then you can make the good great, or at least the mediocre tolerable.

Just my $.03.

Regards,
Nathan

[garysjo]

Agree it's the "lead bass drum" syndrome. Operator error in my opinion. Sure low end adds to the excitement of the event but many guys go way over board, have for years in my opinion. What about clarity and intelligibility of a vocal? Annoys the hell out of me...

I did see the Police show last summer up here at Great Woods, an outdoor venue not necessarily known for good sound, where the mix was very good including the low end. Quite refreshing for me.

Best low end I have heard was a Metheny show in Boston's Orpheum Theater. Sounded like a record....maybe twice during the show the engineer hit the subs hard for dynamic effect at key points in the tune. Of course this was not a rock show. Quite effective though. Very musical engineer working with Metheny.

I guess the masses like to get the shit kicked out of them during a live event. not I...