Article: First, We Kill All the Soundmen

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Toro

If by local you mean MTV3 ok sure, if by local you mean a local club than ok. But i played big, i played small, and i played really really big, playing for a local club doesn't have anything to do with it, there's some good engineers and some REALLY bad ones out there thats all i'm saying you can not defend all of them. paying you ha !! exactly like paying you extra, what engineers don't get pay to do the job i'm asking? cause i've heard that before.. you know like " they don't pay me enough to do that kind of job for you "... thats all i'm saying i usually do not argue with an engineer next thing you know my snare is not there anymore

It's nice to take home more than the cost of the mics they broke.

Speaking of which - the snare would still be there if you hadn't knocked the head off my 57 - but I foxed you, at least sometimes. Electro-Voice 664 - try breaking THAT with a mere drumstick!

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by jhg

From both sides of things, I've never experienced the treatment the writer described.
Really, the band showing up on time? The soundmen(nice, cause women don't rock the board) not geeking out over shit the band has no clue about. "So the vocal seems a bit sibilant in these monitors, so I'm sidechaining the comp on the vox channel to try to take care of that, sorry I didn't bring my de-esser, forgot about this setup" The singer, while eyes glossing over, but excited that someone gives a damn "Um, ok"

I guess in all the years of playing and live work I just never played or worked anywhere as terrible as the author of this article. I've mixed for bar tab + fish and chips and played for a hell of a lot less than that.

Commence horror stories now. I had a couple I wrote out, but there are simply too many.

I've known several women who rock the board quite well, thank you!

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Toro

wait till we meet each others --two p's-- i'm going to map it out for you !! you going to be working over time, dub it out for us, doing huge drops and playing breaks in between sets is going to be awesome !! As far as working with pro engineers go, i worked with some really really good ones, I think KCRW was a pretty cool radio gig they have good stuff... but i've done bigger than that So what's your point two p's you claim that all engineers are good and musicians don't run into bad ones like i said before its 50/50 at least for me i'm out there 2, 3, 4, times a week, i'm nyc breakbeat drummer baby you didn't heard? LOL just joking

No, if you'd read my post carefully you'd know that I stated that a good part of the problem is asshole clubowners who refuse to pay a competent sound engineer and instead give a few extra bucks to a bartender, janitor, family member, or, god forbid, DJ to make sure that the sound is godawful.

[Toro]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

No, if you'd read my post carefully you'd know that I stated that a good part of the problem is asshole clubowners who refuse to pay a competent sound engineer and instead give a few extra bucks to a bartender, janitor, family member, or, god forbid, DJ to make sure that the sound is godawful.

Fair enough

[alcohol]

It was obvious to me that the author of First We Kill All the Soundmen was being facetious, especially about the musicians. I didn't read the whole thing, but, it's a fair wager that 50% of the people that do sound at clubs are incompetent or don't give a shit.

That's been my experience as a musician and as a member of the audience. These are for local clubs of around 200 or 400 people and not big acts or the really large clubs.

I do work as a soundman for a couple of bands that do quite well in Boston. They've asked me to do their sound because of the poor performance of most of the soundmen they've experienced around the city. These clubs usually hire a soundman and have a permanent system installed.

This past Thursday we did a gig. The sound guy was setting up his equipment, which was top shelf. I asked him if I could set the levels for the band I work with and he got immediately hostile. After I calmed him down, buy telling him it was an inquiry and not a demand he said it was fine.

The guy would not let the bands set up in the way they are accustomed to, and insisted that they set up their band members as he saw fit. He was so obstinate that the band members agreed because he threatened to walk out. Band memebers were calling him the 'sound****'. He did get a decent sound. I did my band's set and then he told me that he was 'taught' that you set levels and then you don't have anything else to do. I've seen this done time and time again with soundmen and then you wonder why the background harmonies can't be heard, or the lead guitar doesn't fill in adequately when taking a solo, or the tenor singers are killing your ears because it sounds so harsh.

These kind of experiences are more typical than rare.

Last time I played where I hired a soundman I tipped the guy $50 for doing a good job, so it's not like you must suck for being a soundman, but chances are you do.

[gorillainthemix]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

No, if you'd read my post carefully you'd know that I stated that a good part of the problem is asshole clubowners who refuse to pay a competent sound engineer and instead give a few extra bucks to a bartender, janitor, family member, or, god forbid, DJ to make sure that the sound is godawful.

32 posts per day....dude, get a life.

[Fletcher]

The first thing that pissed me off about that jag offs rant was saying that bass players aren't musicians... and judging from the level of shit bar he seems to be talking about, in his case he's probably right.

With the people I've worked with over the majority of my career the bass player was as, if not more crucial to the outcome of the overall than the guitar or keyboard player and certainly equally as essential as a quality drummer. Without those element then there is nothing a "soundman" can do to make it sound like what it is... complete shite.

In the case where he's talking about the soundguy getting paid off the door before the band... he's talking about some shit hole cover bar with $1.50 drafts where the band [no matter how miserably they attempt such feats] are there to be a living juke box and play the hits.

These bars don't give a rats ass about anything other then getting girls into the bar so that guys will come to buy them drinks. The band's that play these shit holes get what they deserve... which is usually some numbskull punque who knows less about audio / system tuning / maintenance than my 15 yr. old daughter.

In his case, he's right about "sound check" as there are going to be nothing but shit sounds to check and the whole exercise is a waste of time for all involved. In those bars they'd all be better off with a "PA on a stick" running nothing but vocals and mixed from the stage as the band is far less important to the evening's entertainment than the $1.50 draft beers.

However, in the "real" world [where the band is making more than door and there is a real club system and people working who actually have half a clue] you still run into the occasional dooshbag (spelling error intentional to get around GS "net nanny feature) he described in his little rant. In those cases, I whole heartedly agree with the guy that wrote the rant.

I did sound for a friend's band one night a few months ago. He was headlining a fairly decent club in Boston. When I got there the "soundman" was no where to be found. Having worked this club a few hundred times over the decades I decided to just start without him. Fired up the system... found he had blown drivers on both sides and half an amplifier that was fried.

Called the manager over, showed him what was broken, asked if he could find "the soundman" so we could get this taken care of. Got the moron on his mobile phone, explained what was going on... his response? "well it was fine last night" [!!!]... followed by "and what the hell are you doing fvcking with my system?".

I explained that I doubted it was fine the night before and anyway he looked at the situation it wasn't fine now... "so what's the plan?". He said he'd think about it and we'd "fix it" when he got in. In the meanwhile, since I knew the manager for over a decade we called a local rental company, rented an amp and bought new drivers for his cabinets [something that doesn't usually happen unless you're a friend of the bar's production manager for well over a decade].

I fixed the house system, got everything up and running [a full hour after when "sound check" was supposed to end. Dooshbag house boy shows up 10 minutes before doors yelling about how I fvcked up HIS system. Manager steps in explains that I was doing sound when this bitch "was still shittin' yellow" and for him to try to learn something that night.

No where near the end of the story... but the openers got a decent show, the band I was with did a great show, I got nothing but attitude from 'turd boy' all night and almost every one on the bar staff thanked me for keeping the volume reasonable and that for the first time in ages it didn't "hurt" [this guy who is probably less than half my age seemed to be even deafer than me at 4kHz as the system tuning was a festival of 3-5kHz before I retuned it].

Funny part, a dear friend of mine worked the same bar last night. Ironically he called and asked me if I knew ______ from _____'s. The bar was the same bar I was talking about in my little rant... and apparently the same kid was still mishandling the system... showed up late and had blown drivers. My bro, who has been working steadily in "live sound" for the last [well over] 20 years and is exceptionally tight friends with our mutual friend the bar manager went through the same experience I did. The bar manager caught on that the "experienced" guys he knows found the kid's work unacceptable... and I guess next week the kid will have to start looking for another gig as my bro is going to cover the bar for a week until they find a kid who actually cares.

Sorry for the off-topic rant... my point being that the moron from the real bar will probably find his real level of "expertise" and end up as the moron in some cover joint where the sub-hack who wrote the original rant will probably be gigging next Wednesday night.

[Sqye]

.

+1 on fletcher's take.

i didn't read the article - but sound guys in most small / independent clubs generally suck.

there are a few exceptions - people who actually love what they do, have talent, decent gear, etc.

...when you find these guys - it's like a gift from Zeus - it happens only rarely.


...however, at the pro / large venue / union / major label level - there are plenty of talented sound folks.


go play disney hall in LA - those guys DON'T FUKK AROUND!!! my band played there 2 years ago (i was also musical director / producer) - those were the best techs i've ever dealt with in my life.

...or jeff good (blue october) - that guy's a fukking GENIUS!

jeff will make ANY club sound like a million bucks.

.

[nick-the-sax]

+1 the above.

having played a lot (being a musician primarily), i've very rarely found a soundman to be either intelligent, competent, or even willing to listen to others. and yes, they're usually late, unorganised, don't know what they're doing and rather than manning the desk, just go and get drunk and take more money than they're worth - leaving the musicians with a bad sounding gig and empty pockets.

of course you do get the good ones. so few and far between, i can remember them by name.

[DSpec1]

Wow. To those who have, dare I say, completely overreacted...

A lot emotion for a tongue in cheek blog post.

Way too serious folks.

I know we all love what we do, but c'mon, every person, in any job, takes a bit of roasting due to people not understanding the business.

Might help to have a sense of humour.

[Corran]

lol

I hate doing live sound but I have done it on occasion at the local college bar. The system is so jacked and the bands terrible, I get flack from the bands when soundcheck takes hours and the monitors don't work, etc. etc. because the house soundman blows hard and doesn't keep everything even working right. I love when the band/patrons come up to me and say the guitar is too loud when I don't have the mic even turned on.

The "article" is probably mostly true for these college dives that hire the crappy bands who couldn't get a good sound with the best live sound guy in the world.

[AZeitung]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

Az, the reason people get worked up over crap like this is because it's a real attitude that is all too common in the real world, which you'd know if you had any actual experience.

Well, then, I guess it's a good thing you're here to whine about it on an internet forum.

[Sqye]

Originally Posted by AZeitung

Well, then, I guess it's a good thing you're here to whine about it on an internet forum.

.

lol

.

[Storyville]

Hi, I did live sound for three measly years, and I can honestly say I hated it. Mainly because of assholes like this.

The first sound gigs I did were for 50$ a night, and a free drink ticket. That works out to about 6$ per hour. Luckily I had the green advantage.... I actually cared about making a good impression. So I bent over backwards for the club owner, promoter, and musicians. USUALLY the musicians were cool, the promoter was an asshole, and the club owner was a borderline criminal.

Here's a couple of real life scenarios where I got chewed out by any of the three mentioned:

a) "Hey soundman (my name's Matthew, not soundman), we can't hear ourselves. How are we supposed to play if we can't hear ourselves?" (more cursing, but that was the premise). Me: "I'm sorry, I can try re-angling the PAs. The club doesn't own a set of monitor speakers so there's not much I can do."

b) "Hey soundguy (Matthew, I know it's my first day on the job, but really), there's no sound coming from the side room speakers." Me: "It's my first day on the job, there's no schematic of the aux routing. You have six sets of speakers, I'm doing my best here."

c) "The sound was terrible." Me: "No shit. There's six amps daisy chained to each other, all on max, and everytime I try to adjust the amps the owner of the club yells at me in Chinese. And, nobody came to your show anyway, and you didn't pay me."

And now people wonder why I charge 50$ and HOUR to do live sound. Because I really don't have any desire to do it.

I'm sure Mista Lucky thinks he's funny. The only thing I agree with here is that he should do his own sound if he's had so many poor experiences.

[DeathMonkey]

I have to laugh when people take hyperbole in rants seriously, like a personal affront. Yes, he is specifically calling YOU out. YOU really need to get steamed and defend the honor of soundpeople. But I think any musician who has played gigs at the club level has this same love/hate relationship with soundpeople - we LOVE a good one, we HATE a bad one. Just as soundpeople love a good band that shows up on time, is clear about what they need, and tips BEFORE the show. And they (rightfully) hate bands that don't.

Like anything else, talent moves upwards. Unless you're lucky enough to catch a soundperson on the way up, as they still need that local day job, in most rock clubs you're going to find someone who has risen to their level of incompetence - same as those bands that have played nothing but local shows for ten years.

I know who the good soundpeople in town are. And almost all of them work in places I won't get to play until America gets a strange lust for fat guys who yell a lot. There are maybe three or four people who are at the club level here who are really good. And the gap between them and everyone else is the difference between Stephen Hawking and the 4th grader who keeps falling asleep in math class.

As a musician, the sound person is the last link in the chain of me connecting to my audience. It sucks but it's true that you only notice the sound if it sucks, that great live mixes are ignored - soundpeple are only noticed if they screw up.

I think the missing key to a lot of live show's puzzles is the understanding that just like in the studio, getting that snare reverb just right isn't really going to matter. Making sure the performance is smooth and fun for the musicians DOES. If the FOH mix is a little tinny or a little off balance, I can live with it if my monitor mix is working for me, and I can hear everything I need to. If my sound environment is such that I can just relax and concentrate on putting on a good show - doing MY job - then the soundperson has done 95% of THEIR job, IMHO.

We play a place in Everett called Tony V's Garage. Tony himself mans the board. I don't know how much audio background he has, I'm guessing not a whole lot. But he lets us turn the amps up loud, sets the monitors where we need em, maybe mikes a kick and snare (we use an iPod for drums n keys ourselves :D ), cranks it to where he likes it, and off we go. And EVERY show we have played there has kicked ass. He expects us to have our shit together, and just lets us go for it. And it is ALWAYS a good time.

I'll take that over the frustrated engineer who micromanages everything to death based on some gain structure and EQ graph they learned at SAE. Guitars sound huge through the mains? That's great. The audience will hear my mistakes in stunning audio as I wander off beat because I can't hear the frakking drums in my monitors, or as I play an entire song a fret off because you think I should be able to hear my amp onstage so you didn't put any in my mix. No, I can't just watch my fretboard and play by braille, I'm also the singer. But feel free to ignore my repeated "can I get a little more drums and guitar in my monitor, please?" because you think it'll throw off the FOH mix.

True story.

Look, musicians suck, soundpeople suck, club owners who bought their second hand Peavey 6 channel board and 500 watt power amp with three speakers in 1986 and expect it to be fine for a 6 piece funk band suck, everyone sucks. But there ARE nights when the band is professional, the club is well run and well set up, and the soundperson knows and enjoys what they do and it all comes together and creates the magic we all fell in love with that makes us do this.

It's rock and roll. Laugh at it, or do something else.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by The Dutch Master

32 posts per day....dude, get a life.

Hey jerkoff - I'm 59 years old and I've had a lot of down time recently due to health problems - GS has helped keep me from climbing the walls. Go judge yourself, Mr "Master"!

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

The first thing that pissed me off about that jag offs rant was saying that bass players aren't musicians... and judging from the level of shit bar he seems to be talking about, in his case he's probably right.

With the people I've worked with over the majority of my career the bass player was as, if not more crucial to the outcome of the overall than the guitar or keyboard player and certainly equally as essential as a quality drummer. Without those element then there is nothing a "soundman" can do to make it sound like what it is... complete shite.

In the case where he's talking about the soundguy getting paid off the door before the band... he's talking about some shit hole cover bar with $1.50 drafts where the band [no matter how miserably they attempt such feats] are there to be a living juke box and play the hits.

These bars don't give a rats ass about anything other then getting girls into the bar so that guys will come to buy them drinks. The band's that play these shit holes get what they deserve... which is usually some numbskull punque who knows less about audio / system tuning / maintenance than my 15 yr. old daughter.

In his case, he's right about "sound check" as there are going to be nothing but shit sounds to check and the whole exercise is a waste of time for all involved. In those bars they'd all be better off with a "PA on a stick" running nothing but vocals and mixed from the stage as the band is far less important to the evening's entertainment than the $1.50 draft beers.

However, in the "real" world [where the band is making more than door and there is a real club system and people working who actually have half a clue] you still run into the occasional dooshbag (spelling error intentional to get around GS "net nanny feature) he described in his little rant. In those cases, I whole heartedly agree with the guy that wrote the rant.

I did sound for a friend's band one night a few months ago. He was headlining a fairly decent club in Boston. When I got there the "soundman" was no where to be found. Having worked this club a few hundred times over the decades I decided to just start without him. Fired up the system... found he had blown drivers on both sides and half an amplifier that was fried.

Called the manager over, showed him what was broken, asked if he could find "the soundman" so we could get this taken care of. Got the moron on his mobile phone, explained what was going on... his response? "well it was fine last night" [!!!]... followed by "and what the hell are you doing fvcking with my system?".

I explained that I doubted it was fine the night before and anyway he looked at the situation it wasn't fine now... "so what's the plan?". He said he'd think about it and we'd "fix it" when he got in. In the meanwhile, since I knew the manager for over a decade we called a local rental company, rented an amp and bought new drivers for his cabinets [something that doesn't usually happen unless you're a friend of the bar's production manager for well over a decade].

I fixed the house system, got everything up and running [a full hour after when "sound check" was supposed to end. Dooshbag house boy shows up 10 minutes before doors yelling about how I fvcked up HIS system. Manager steps in explains that I was doing sound when this bitch "was still shittin' yellow" and for him to try to learn something that night.

No where near the end of the story... but the openers got a decent show, the band I was with did a great show, I got nothing but attitude from 'turd boy' all night and almost every one on the bar staff thanked me for keeping the volume reasonable and that for the first time in ages it didn't "hurt" [this guy who is probably less than half my age seemed to be even deafer than me at 4kHz as the system tuning was a festival of 3-5kHz before I retuned it].

Funny part, a dear friend of mine worked the same bar last night. Ironically he called and asked me if I knew ______ from _____'s. The bar was the same bar I was talking about in my little rant... and apparently the same kid was still mishandling the system... showed up late and had blown drivers. My bro, who has been working steadily in "live sound" for the last [well over] 20 years and is exceptionally tight friends with our mutual friend the bar manager went through the same experience I did. The bar manager caught on that the "experienced" guys he knows found the kid's work unacceptable... and I guess next week the kid will have to start looking for another gig as my bro is going to cover the bar for a week until they find a kid who actually cares.

Sorry for the off-topic rant... my point being that the moron from the real bar will probably find his real level of "expertise" and end up as the moron in some cover joint where the sub-hack who wrote the original rant will probably be gigging next Wednesday night.

Good one, Fletcher!

I don't understand why these no-talent amateurs get hired in the first place - in this case it seems as if the clubowner is actually a reasonable guy (a real rarity these days) - couldn't he tell that the idiot he was employing was ruining his system and probably driving away business? Why didn't he just hire somebody good? Lord knows there's enough experienced people around who are either not working or extremely under-utilized......

[plexisys]

Having spent more years on the road as an engineer than my body wants to admit I'll give you some fun stories.

1. Day on the Green - I've done dozens of the DOG shows over the years. Mixing a metal band. Sitting on the bus that night, one by one, Guitar player 1, then guitar player 2, then bass player, then drummer, then singer come in and one by one each say "my friend told me I wasn't loud enough in the mix". I look at all 5 of them then say. "This was the biggest and loudest sound system ever used at a Day on the Green. The sound meters were hitting 111 db at the console. Since there were 25,000 plus people rocking during the set how could none of you be loud enough? If it wasn't the five of you what were they listening to?" Collectively, from all five "ahhhh, I don't know?"

2. Red Rocks - I get a last minute call to fly out and mix the Clash. I get there with 5 minutes of the opening act left. Don't have time to meet or talk to anyone, don't even have a set list. It's a pretty big Clair Brothers rig and I know 2 of the 4 crew guys from other tours I've used Clair Brothers for so I 'm pretty comfortable with everything. Set change about 10-15 minutes. Cue music, Clash comes out checks gear, starts London Calling, 45 seconds in to the first song I blow ever speaker in the rig. I mean every F'ing speaker. The Clair engineer next to me turns in to the palest looking whiteman you have ever scene.

I go back after the show figuring I'll be fired and on the plane tonight. All 4 guys in the band actually come running over to me yelling and screaming how great they heard the show sounded. The 2 managers come up and say that was magic, what did you do, it was incredible. I tell them I blew every speaker on the rig out in the first song. Everybody looks mezzed for about 10 seconds then starts laughing. Joe says, well at least we got a mixer with some balls now.

3. At home in LA - Get a call to mix a new band at the Whiskey. I tell the guy I really don't work in bars. I get a call from the label about 10 minutes later. When a label asks, you take the job. I tell him I'll do it but I have tour rehearsal at SIR until about 8:30 PM. He says no problem. I show up at the Whiskey about 9:30 or 10:00. Go meet the band, seem like nice guys. 11:00 or so show time. The band is so Friggin loud on stage (if you can ever really call what the Whiskey has a stage) I can't even hear the house speakers. The guitar player has 3 dual Marshall cabinets cranked to 11, the bass player has three large bass cabinets. The vocalist can't even be found in the sound system. After the show the guitar player tells me he wasn't loud enough. 6 Marshall cabinets in the Whiskey and the guitar wasn't loud enough. This was the first time VH played the Whiskey.

So many stories..............

[Toro]

Originally Posted by Storyville

Hi, I did live sound for three measly years, and I can honestly say I hated it. Mainly because of assholes like this.

The first sound gigs I did were for 50$ a night, and a free drink ticket. That works out to about 6$ per hour. Luckily I had the green advantage.... I actually cared about making a good impression. So I bent over backwards for the club owner, promoter, and musicians. USUALLY the musicians were cool, the promoter was an asshole, and the club owner was a borderline criminal.

Here's a couple of real life scenarios where I got chewed out by any of the three mentioned:

a) "Hey soundman (my name's Matthew, not soundman), we can't hear ourselves. How are we supposed to play if we can't hear ourselves?" (more cursing, but that was the premise). Me: "I'm sorry, I can try re-angling the PAs. The club doesn't own a set of monitor speakers so there's not much I can do."

b) "Hey soundguy (Matthew, I know it's my first day on the job, but really), there's no sound coming from the side room speakers." Me: "It's my first day on the job, there's no schematic of the aux routing. You have six sets of speakers, I'm doing my best here."

c) "The sound was terrible." Me: "No shit. There's six amps daisy chained to each other, all on max, and everytime I try to adjust the amps the owner of the club yells at me in Chinese. And, nobody came to your show anyway, and you didn't pay me."

And now people wonder why I charge 50$ and HOUR to do live sound. Because I really don't have any desire to do it.

I'm sure Mista Lucky thinks he's funny. The only thing I agree with here is that he should do his own sound if he's had so many poor experiences.

hey you should write movie scripts

[Sqye]

Originally Posted by plexisys

Having spent more years on the road as an engineer than my body wants to admit I'll give you some fun stories.

1. Day on the Green - I've done dozens of the DOG shows over the years. Mixing a metal band. Sitting on the bus that night, one by one, Guitar player 1, then guitar player 2, then bass player, then drummer, then singer come in and one by one each say "my friend told me I wasn't loud enough in the mix". I look at all 5 of them then say. "This was the biggest and loudest sound system ever used at a Day on the Green. The sound meters were hitting 111 db at the console. Since there were 25,000 plus people rocking during the set how could none of you be loud enough? If it wasn't the five of you what were they listening to?" Collectively, from all five "ahhhh, I don't know?"

2. Red Rocks - I get a last minute call to fly out and mix the Clash. I get there with 5 minutes of the opening act left. Don't have time to meet or talk to anyone, don't even have a set list. It's a pretty big Clair Brothers rig and I know 2 of the 4 crew guys from other tours I've used Clair Brothers for so I 'm pretty comfortable with everything. Set change about 10-15 minutes. Cue music, Clash comes out checks gear, starts London Calling, 45 seconds in to the first song I blow ever speaker in the rig. I mean every F'ing speaker. The Clair engineer next to me turns in to the palest looking whiteman you have ever scene.

I go back after the show figuring I'll be fired and on the plane tonight. All 4 guys in the band actually come running over to me yelling and screaming how great they heard the show sounded. The 2 managers come up and say that was magic, what did you do, it was incredible. I tell them I blew every speaker on the rig out in the first song. Everybody looks mezzed for about 10 seconds then starts laughing. Joe says, well at least we got a mixer with some balls now.

3. At home in LA - Get a call to mix a new band at the Whiskey. I tell the guy I really don't work in bars. I get a call from the label about 10 minutes later. When a label asks, you take the job. I tell him I'll do it but I have tour rehearsal at SIR until about 8:30 PM. He says no problem. I show up at the Whiskey about 9:30 or 10:00. Go meet the band, seem like nice guys. 11:00 or so show time. The band is so Friggin load on stage (if you can ever really call what the Whiskey has a stage) I can't even hear the house speakers. The guitar player has 3 dual Marshall cabinets cranked to 11, the bass player has three large bass cabinets. The vocalist can't even be found in the sound system. After the show the guitar player tells me he wasn't loud enough. 6 Marshall cabinets in the Whiskey and the guitar wasn't loud enough. This was the first time VH played the Whiskey.

So many stories..............

.

great fukkin' post - THANKS for that........nice dose of reality...

...and great posts, death monkey and storyville - some words of wisdom here, indeed...

.

[huub]

Thing is, if you're an amateur musician, you play shitty clubs with shitty amateur engineers..

I used to be an amateur musician, and I hated audio engineers..

[videoteque]

The rant is pretty 100% right in my experience, of course there are exceptions!

"well, young man, it's a lot louder than it needs to be, there's too much bass, and I can't hear the singer."

I found this to be true 99% of the time. I can't count the times where you listen to the mix and 30% is hihat pearcing your ears like a black&decker...

Most musicians are half-deaf and pretend to have an opinion on sound, when most of them turn their amps to 11 and pray for the best... Nice bands (there are few in rock, a lot more in jazz/folk/etc) balance themselves and sound good in any situation, from unplugged to big festivals!

The problem of soundmen making little money in little clubs is normal, it's an entry level job with very little responsability. If you are good you will climb the ladder, go to bigger jobs. But you must be good, not deaf, arrive in time, make bands sound good, be nice and listen to musicians, etc.