In Studio Mic options for upcoming session

jazzmanATB · 26th June 2009

I have 3 days at Bennett Studios coming up in August with my acoustic jazz trio. I am most worried about getting a good piano sound and do not know what kind of experience the engineer might have since its the kind of deal where whoever is around could get thrown in there for it. My gut is to always let the engineer do what they usually do first. if however it is not to my liking, what is the best way to approach a change? And also its hard to know, but what would you say are the best 2 methods/mic choices that would represent the opposite ends of the spectrum?

IOW, if we start with(looking at their mic list http://www.bennettstudios.com/bennettmiclist.pdf) a pair of KM84 fairly close to hammer area and moving them around(distance and trying AB,XY,ORTF) isn't working,what is the next step? Maybe AEA R84's farther back? Man, I know this is really a "you got to be in the room, listening to each mic and movement" but I wonder if something comes to mind as a "go-to" next move if the first option doesn't work. I don't want to spend the first 4 hours on this if possible.

thanks for any time/consideration...

alan

RobAnderson · 26th June 2009

I am not a fan of placing the mic's by the hammers. I prefer to be over the strings if I am close-mic'ing and if I am close, I will generally go with a large-capsule mic over a small capsule, though that may just be my own superstition.

I actually like the 103's on piano, but the 414B-ULS is also a popular choice and I don't think you would go wrong with the U87 either. Especially if everyone is in the same room, I would probably avoid using figure-8 on the piano, which I think would rule out the ribbons - also their low-frequency response can lend an unpleasant coloration to piano IMHO, though some people have success with them.

Probably more important than any microphone, I would advise you to have the piano tuned specifically for the session - this makes far more of a difference than microphone choice in getting a good piano sound. If the instrument is out, there is no mic/pre combination that will make it sound good.

All that said, and I don't mean this in a nasty way whatsoever, I would advise you to concentrate on what you need to do as a performer and let the engineer do his job. Don't go in with the preconception that the guy is incompetent, because this will color your perception and possibly poison the atmosphere. Let the engineer prove his/her ability and go from there. When I was transitioning from a performer to a technician, I found that trying to wear both hats usually ended up compromising my performance in both areas since I was fully focused on neither.

If you don't like the sound, try to articulate the sound you are after. Unless he/she seems completely clueless, the person in the chair will probably know more about the room, piano and microphones than you will.

ptr · 26th June 2009

I would try MS, just listen to the tryout on Schoeps Showroom.. (Best damn close up piano sound I've heard for a while..)

From the Mick list I'd try the Coles 4038 or a 414 for '8' and a KM84 for cardioid.. using the M147/149 as a MS combo migt also work well if You dont like the ribbon sound!

/ptr

(btw : my first GS post!)

Jungle Jazz · 27th June 2009

Instead of trying to pick the gear first, you might consider figuring out what kind of sound you would like. Before you get into the studio, try to conceptualize what kind of sound you are looking for from the piano as well as from the trio, perhaps going through your music collection, listening for trio sounds that you most would like to emulate. Even from among contemporary trios, there's a range of sounds you can shoot for, from a Keith Jarrett sound, to Fred Hersch, to the Bad Plus, and others. And here I'm talking about the band sound as it appears on record, regardless of the compositions they are playing.

At the studio, tell them what kind of sound concept you are looking for, and even bring along some recordings that you like the sound of. Ask the engineer what kind of setup they usually use for their piano. They probably have an idea of what the piano sounds like with different configurations, and you can use their traditional setup(s) as a point of departure, working from their towards your ideal sound.

You might also want to decide if you want to have the whole band in the same room for a more live sound or if you want everyone in isolation for a cleaner, separated sound. Depending on their level of studio comfort, jazz musicians often prefer being in a more live kind of setup, working without headphones if possible. However, if the musicians are comfortable being isolated and using headphones, then try isolation. Or you could have a little of each, putting the drums in iso and having the piano and bass in the same room.

As to your original question, if you are looking for two different sounding setups as a place to begin, you could try a pair of SDCs (like the KM84 matched pair) in an ORTF setup and an A/B pair of LDCs (like the U87ai or the AKG C414B-uls). That M149 would probably work well, but I'm not sure what I'd pair it with.

You might also consider talking to a producer who has worked with jazz trios who might give you some pointers before you get into the studio. I'm not too far from Baltimore myself, and I'd be happy to chat if you want to send me a PM.

jazzmanATB · 28th June 2009

thanks all for the sound advice. I just needed to bounce some things of the wall here before going in. I DEFINITELY love the Jarrett steinway sound the best. I know that a lot of it is the instrument and his fingers. But ever since I started tuning pianos and doing studio work I have grown increasingly "anal" about piano sounds. To be honest most recordings, even the major label ones, sound awful to me. Too much hammer(its a pet peeve when guys say to me," jazzers like that bright sound...it cuts through), out of tune, sometimes over compressed(in a bad way). Its actually becoming a bit of a curse;I would rather just play and not worry about it but its getting harder. That is on me....I really appreciate all the thoughts and time you guys gave me. I have scheduled a tuning for all three days in the studio and thanks for the reminder about that!

thanks again,

alan

7rojo7 · 29th June 2009

Km84s xy a hand's length behind and about 2 above the hammers and an 87 at the end of the tail
Are the drums in the room with you? gobos and blankets

Daniel Stark · 29th June 2009

"Jazzers" sounds like some kind of stretch pants worn by middle aged ladies. Reminds me of band camp.

Daniel Stark · 29th June 2009

Sorry I misread that post!!! I see that you were in fact making fun of someone else saying that.... And obviously I agree 110%.

Roland · 3rd July 2009

Well assuming the piano in the studio is good, I would go with trying to capture that sound. Trying to "force" a type of sound from an instrument, usually ends up going nowhere. Hopefully the engineer will be experienced in that studio and know enough about what he is doing to get it right. I would give him his head to start with, then if it isn't working, explain what you don't like and see what he comes up with as a suggestion. Always remember to be realistic, a 5ft Yamaha is never going to sound like a concert Steinway and with piano's acoustics of the room/studio will play a major part in the sound.

Regards

Roland

26th June 2009	#1
jazzmanATB Gear interested Joined: Mar 2009 Location: Baltimore Posts: 25 Thread Starter	In Studio Mic options for upcoming session I have 3 days at Bennett Studios coming up in August with my acoustic jazz trio. I am most worried about getting a good piano sound and do not know what kind of experience the engineer might have since its the kind of deal where whoever is around could get thrown in there for it. My gut is to always let the engineer do what they usually do first. if however it is not to my liking, what is the best way to approach a change? And also its hard to know, but what would you say are the best 2 methods/mic choices that would represent the opposite ends of the spectrum? IOW, if we start with(looking at their mic list http://www.bennettstudios.com/bennettmiclist.pdf) a pair of KM84 fairly close to hammer area and moving them around(distance and trying AB,XY,ORTF) isn't working,what is the next step? Maybe AEA R84's farther back? Man, I know this is really a "you got to be in the room, listening to each mic and movement" but I wonder if something comes to mind as a "go-to" next move if the first option doesn't work. I don't want to spend the first 4 hours on this if possible. thanks for any time/consideration... alan

26th June 2009	#2
RobAnderson Lives for gear Joined: Jan 2007 Location: NY New York a wonderful town Posts: 725 16 Reviews written	I am not a fan of placing the mic's by the hammers. I prefer to be over the strings if I am close-mic'ing and if I am close, I will generally go with a large-capsule mic over a small capsule, though that may just be my own superstition. I actually like the 103's on piano, but the 414B-ULS is also a popular choice and I don't think you would go wrong with the U87 either. Especially if everyone is in the same room, I would probably avoid using figure-8 on the piano, which I think would rule out the ribbons - also their low-frequency response can lend an unpleasant coloration to piano IMHO, though some people have success with them. Probably more important than any microphone, I would advise you to have the piano tuned specifically for the session - this makes far more of a difference than microphone choice in getting a good piano sound. If the instrument is out, there is no mic/pre combination that will make it sound good. All that said, and I don't mean this in a nasty way whatsoever, I would advise you to concentrate on what you need to do as a performer and let the engineer do his job. Don't go in with the preconception that the guy is incompetent, because this will color your perception and possibly poison the atmosphere. Let the engineer prove his/her ability and go from there. When I was transitioning from a performer to a technician, I found that trying to wear both hats usually ended up compromising my performance in both areas since I was fully focused on neither. If you don't like the sound, try to articulate the sound you are after. Unless he/she seems completely clueless, the person in the chair will probably know more about the room, piano and microphones than you will. __________________ "Everybody gets so much information all day long that they lose their common sense." - G. Stein 1946 The reputation of a thousand years may be determined by the conduct of one hour. - Japanese Proverb "Look into his face and hear the music of the ages. Don't pay too much attention to the sounds--for if you do, you may miss the music." - George Ives http://www.andersonsoundrecording.com

29th June 2009	#6
7rojo7 urumita Joined: Nov 2002 Location: Spoleto, Italy Posts: 2,381	Km84s xy a hand's length behind and about 2 above the hammers and an 87 at the end of the tail Are the drums in the room with you? gobos and blankets __________________ love and light

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26th June 2009	#3
ptr Gear interested Joined: Jun 2009 Location: Sweden Posts: 18	I would try MS, just listen to the tryout on Schoeps Showroom.. (Best damn close up piano sound I've heard for a while..) From the Mick list I'd try the Coles 4038 or a 414 for '8' and a KM84 for cardioid.. using the M147/149 as a MS combo migt also work well if You dont like the ribbon sound! /ptr (btw : my first GS post!)

27th June 2009	#4
Jungle Jazz Lives for gear Joined: Jan 2007 Location: Washington, D.C. area Posts: 802	Instead of trying to pick the gear first, you might consider figuring out what kind of sound you would like. Before you get into the studio, try to conceptualize what kind of sound you are looking for from the piano as well as from the trio, perhaps going through your music collection, listening for trio sounds that you most would like to emulate. Even from among contemporary trios, there's a range of sounds you can shoot for, from a Keith Jarrett sound, to Fred Hersch, to the Bad Plus, and others. And here I'm talking about the band sound as it appears on record, regardless of the compositions they are playing. At the studio, tell them what kind of sound concept you are looking for, and even bring along some recordings that you like the sound of. Ask the engineer what kind of setup they usually use for their piano. They probably have an idea of what the piano sounds like with different configurations, and you can use their traditional setup(s) as a point of departure, working from their towards your ideal sound. You might also want to decide if you want to have the whole band in the same room for a more live sound or if you want everyone in isolation for a cleaner, separated sound. Depending on their level of studio comfort, jazz musicians often prefer being in a more live kind of setup, working without headphones if possible. However, if the musicians are comfortable being isolated and using headphones, then try isolation. Or you could have a little of each, putting the drums in iso and having the piano and bass in the same room. As to your original question, if you are looking for two different sounding setups as a place to begin, you could try a pair of SDCs (like the KM84 matched pair) in an ORTF setup and an A/B pair of LDCs (like the U87ai or the AKG C414B-uls). That M149 would probably work well, but I'm not sure what I'd pair it with. You might also consider talking to a producer who has worked with jazz trios who might give you some pointers before you get into the studio. I'm not too far from Baltimore myself, and I'd be happy to chat if you want to send me a PM.

28th June 2009	#5
jazzmanATB Gear interested Joined: Mar 2009 Location: Baltimore Posts: 25 Thread Starter	thanks all for the sound advice. I just needed to bounce some things of the wall here before going in. I DEFINITELY love the Jarrett steinway sound the best. I know that a lot of it is the instrument and his fingers. But ever since I started tuning pianos and doing studio work I have grown increasingly "anal" about piano sounds. To be honest most recordings, even the major label ones, sound awful to me. Too much hammer(its a pet peeve when guys say to me," jazzers like that bright sound...it cuts through), out of tune, sometimes over compressed(in a bad way). Its actually becoming a bit of a curse;I would rather just play and not worry about it but its getting harder. That is on me....I really appreciate all the thoughts and time you guys gave me. I have scheduled a tuning for all three days in the studio and thanks for the reminder about that! thanks again, alan

29th June 2009	#7
Daniel Stark Lives for gear Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 555	"Jazzers" sounds like some kind of stretch pants worn by middle aged ladies. Reminds me of band camp.

3rd July 2009	#9
Roland Lives for gear Joined: Oct 2002 Location: St Leonards on Sea, England Posts: 2,133 2 Reviews written	Well assuming the piano in the studio is good, I would go with trying to capture that sound. Trying to "force" a type of sound from an instrument, usually ends up going nowhere. Hopefully the engineer will be experienced in that studio and know enough about what he is doing to get it right. I would give him his head to start with, then if it isn't working, explain what you don't like and see what he comes up with as a suggestion. Always remember to be realistic, a 5ft Yamaha is never going to sound like a concert Steinway and with piano's acoustics of the room/studio will play a major part in the sound. Regards Roland