Mic Stands, Sight-lines, and Video during classical music recitals

[Sevitzky]

Mic Stands and Video sight-lines during classical music recitals - how do you guys deal with it? (w/o flying mics involved)

It's a different issue than in amplified music settings, since the mic stands are not really "part of the sound creation," and often induce a cluttered effect on those sterile, pristine stages.

For instance, for a typical recital, stereo micing, you've got a big ole 15' stand in the center of the stage. It's right in the middle of the video frame that is being recorded. How to deal WITHOUT flying mics? (a two-man job, I'm a one-man band. I would love to drape some DPA mini omnis across the stage, but that's not really feasible as a primary set up.)

Spaced omni's wide enough to allow a clear view of the performers?

What about a cardiod stereo pair to the side of the performers? Make it narrow enough, and can you avoid hearing the hall in one ear and the wall in the other? Other thoughts?



Thanks for reading.

[fifthcircle]

I have a speech in my back pocket that I've called the "your recording can look good or it can sound good." I also remind the performer that a year or more from now, they won't care about what it looks like, but they will care what their recording sounds like.

I charge enough that people usually elect to make a recording that sounds good. I don't go out of my way to make things ugly, but mics are what they are. To keep things need, I use 2 pair snakes for main pairs, small diaphragm mics, stereo mics, etc...

The problem with spaced pairs on a lot of shows is that performers tend to move. Space pairs will exagerate those moves across the soundstage. That is why I only use spaced pairs for stationary instruments (ie piano).

--Ben

[James Lehmann]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

The problem with spaced pairs on a lot of shows is that performers tend to move. Space pairs will exagerate those moves across the soundstage. That is why I only use spaced pairs for stationary instruments (ie piano).

I've indeed found that with omnis in A-B.

A couple of related questions for ya...

Would you call ORTF a 'spaced pair'?

Do you ever use M/S out in front of the soundstage?

Thanks Ben for your wisdom!

James

[videoteque]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

I also remind the performer that a year or more from now, they won't care about what it looks like, but they will care what their recording sounds like.

This is at least debatable!

If you are making a tv program, video has priority. If your program is not sold because you see a lot of stands, the producer lose money and the performer lose exposure!

If it is a recording in which the video is just "archival", keep your stands and put the mics where they sound better!

[ebs.audio]

Originally Posted by Sevitzky

For instance, for a typical recital, stereo micing, you've got a big ole 15' stand in the center of the stage. It's right in the middle of the video frame that is being recorded. How to deal WITHOUT flying mics? (a two-man job, I'm a one-man band. I would love to drape some DPA mini omnis across the stage, but that's not really feasible as a primary set up.)

This assumes that the best location for the video camera is the center of the audience seating area. Personally, I find this to be a pretty boring perspective. You shouldn't have to move the video camera very far off center for the mic stand to be out of the frame, or at least not in front of the performer.

Unless the video side has plans for broadcasting or some other wide release, I'd say that any potential audience for the video has probably attended recitals before, and is used to seeing a tall stand in front of the stage. I don't think it should be a very big deal, unless the video folks are complaining about it. If they are, I'd ask what they do for other recitals in the hall that are recorded by other engineers, or even how they plan on accomplishing the audio side of things without a feed from your microphones.

[just.sounds]

if audio is priority they can work around you with good results.
The only complaint i always get is the piano pair because they cant capture the face of the player. If you use the 4060's there should not be a huge problem for them because they can angle more freely than we!!

on Radio 4 - programma - 20090208 - subitem you can see some webcasts of radio shows where audio had priority for reference.

Maybe you see me walking by as well as i sometimes take care for the mic's there.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

We record concerts both audio and video.

When I talk to the client before the concert I give them a couple of choices. If they want a bare stage with no microphones visible I tell them that the sound recorded from the camera will not be all that good. If they can tolerate a single "C" microphone stand Impact | Turtle Base Master Century C Stand - 9.8' | CT40M | B&H with a stereo pair of microphone on it then the sound will be much better. It is then up to the artist to decide if they want good sound as well as good video or poor sound with good video. A black powder coated "C" stand is almost invisible to the video camera but some patrons in the front row may not like it. ( We had a concert recently where an audience member came into the concert late, had to sit in the front row and walked up and moved our microphone stand 6 feet to the right before the concert started.) We were able to move it back to its proper position before the concert got underway.

Sometimes the artist/client wants the best recording with NO microphones showing and I have not really figured out a good way to do that. I have also been at concerts where there were so many microphones that the artist was almost hidden from the audience but those are few and far between.

I guess in the final accounting it is up to the artist to decide what is proper and what is not when it comes to having microphones visible at his or her concert.

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

...

Sometimes the artist/client wants the best recording with NO microphones showing and I have not really figured out a good way to do that. I have also been at concerts where there were so many microphones that the artist was almost hidden from the audience but those are few and far between.

...

I normally use Manfrotto photo stands (one 5m silver 6-stage and two 3.5m black 3-stage, with an old 5-stage PIC in reserve) but have been intrigued by the Audix 50" carbon fiber "MicroBoom"(Audix MicroBoom™ : Carbon fiber boom system). It's a modern riff on the old 1m AKG aluminum boom that ran between the C451 cap and mic body, and, while rigged with mini-XLR for the Audix line of tiny caps, I'm thinking a pair would, with a wee bit of black E- or gaff tape, work nicely with my DPA4061s where I want decent AB or spaced omni with minimal presence in the sightline. And, since the 4061s work nicely taped to the ends of 2mm x1m brass rods, that might, in combination, yield 2.5m of very discrete boom to a standard mic stand.

[Corran]

With plenty of setup time and if I don't mind being sore the next day from climbing ladders all day, I have flown mics several times by myself!

I agree that if it's an archival video just tell them what the deal is. If they still don't like it I will just do a single ORTF pair and let it go.

The local symphony is broadcast locally, and the video is very important (we got a 500k donation from someone who only saw the symphony once on TV). So they get pretty uptight about this. Last concert I was flying mics and had just one stand, and one of the flown mics actually came lose and fell about three feet right before the video guys set up. I got a call angrily saying there were mics right where the conductors head was, both from the back (my one stand) and the side shot (the mic too far down). They were freaking out. I fixed the fallen mic and lowered the stand a little and all was well - but they sure got up in arms.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by videoteque

This is at least debatable! ...

Anything is debatable.

EVEN in the video world, sonics are a tremendous priority to the final viewer/listener/consumer. And when the video is of musicians, doing the musician thing, if you aren't capturing fantastic audio, in this day and age when fantastic audio is within the grasp of pretty much one and all, well... take careful aim at that foot of yours.

[Don S]

In my experience, the video is usually not of pro quality for a simple recital. If it's not a pro recital, I'll simply use spaced omni on 2 stands and work with the video person until it sounds and looks decent. If it is a pro video/recital situation, an ortf just out of frame with omnis flanking up high, can yield decent results. If I had the $$, the schoeps active tubes with stands always look elegant and seem to be visually accepted by most pro video companies.

[just.sounds]

Carpet/floor colered gaffer helps a lot to make it look neat!

[cybacolt]

this thread is awesome! i just posted a question about stand placement before i saw this one existed...

heres my thread:
wide AB setup and a question

i did a wide AB, which means you dont have the stand bang in the centre, but 2 stands considerably far apart (in my case around 5-6 metres)... which may be enough to at least satisfy archival video?

[Sevitzky]

If we're talking a pro recital, then I would fly the mics without question, and subcontract out my assistants. Well, if we're talking a pro recital, I would express my opinion, and then do what the producer/TD tells me to do.

But even on a 'student' or local-dude's recital, it's important to get a clean video frame. And the "video guys" is me. I'm thinking about adding video to the services I offer. (we can start an entire new thread on this, if you want)

I don't think one can't underestimate the importance of the visual aspect. I feel like an obtrusive mic stand is equivalent to blocking an entire frequency range in the audio recording - it would be completely unacceptable to us. I'm trying to think from the client's point of view, regarding the product that they will be putting in the hand of a potential employer. Visuals, presentation - it all adds up, like it or not. BTW I'm not taking a moral stand (pardon the pun) on the issue, whether it be audio vs video, mac vs pc, new-gear vs rent. In a live concert situation, compromise is the premise from the outset. How we get there is the question.


Anyway, back OT:

- Low placement. Nobody has mentioned placing the mics at waist height or lower. Obviously it's not ideal, and too close to the ground gets you phasing from the floor reflections, esp from wood stage floors. The sound won't mix or 'bloom'. But I saw a video recording of this technique recently and it seems like a possible compromise. Audio encoding was crap, so I couldn't tell for sure. Any devils advocates?

- Audix. Harry, those audix stands do look very nice. Looks like no stereo, though. And locked into audix capsules...?

- Light stands w/ a long boom + counter balance. Thomas, Harry, is this what you guys are doing? How long are your boom arms? It looks like bh sells 6' boom arms as regular stock. I guess with a counterweight, it's a viable option, providing that the stand supports the total weight.

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by Sevitzky

I don't think one can't underestimate the importance of the visual aspect. I feel like an obtrusive mic stand is equivalent to blocking an entire frequency range in the audio recording - it would be completely unacceptable to us. I'm trying to think from the client's point of view, regarding the product that they will be putting in the hand of a potential employer.

Of course we all think that way (or at least I hope so). The audio is no different: why compromise on that aspect just to have it look good?

Personally, I hate straight-ahead square full frame static shots of performers. Can you say BORING? If I were a potential employer, I'd look at something like that and think "wow, is this all the creativity this applicant is capable of?" The visuals can be SO much more interesting by shooting from different angles or perspectives .... all of which can easily keep the main mics out of the picture.

Originally Posted by Sevitzky

- Low placement. Nobody has mentioned placing the mics at waist height or lower. Obviously it's not ideal, and too close to the ground gets you phasing from the floor reflections, esp from wood stage floors. The sound won't mix or 'bloom'. But I saw a video recording of this technique recently and it seems like a possible compromise. Audio encoding was crap, so I couldn't tell for sure.

No, I'm pretty confident it was crap. I've seen it done many times. Have heard the sonic results too, and it's definitely subpar as it is clearly a compromise in mic placement. The stupid thing (in my experience seeing it done) is that the mics are STILL in the picture!!! So, you get the visual obstruction AND bad sound. Woo-hoo!

[fifthcircle]

I'd stay away from low placement. And when it comes to recitals... Many, many halls simply do not have the time nor do they have the space to hang microphones.

If you are careful with the kinds of stands and the mics you place on them, you can get fine results with stands. Ultimately- even with video, a crappy sounding recording is doing your client a disservice. On TV, the sound gets mangled so badly that you need to start out as high of quality as possible. When dealing with pros instead of vidiots, they can work out a shot that looks fine without the stand being an issue. The more important gigs will have multiple cameras which make it easier to work around the stands.

Sorry, but I deal with too many stupid vidiots to ruin my recording for them.... And the requests for one side of a stereo feed is only the beginning. As for the performers dealing with stands. They'll get over it. Time and time again, I've had even the most cranky of performers admit after the show that once they started to perform, the stand did not bother them.

Now orchestral shows are a different thing... Most halls big enough for an orchestra have places to hang mics and as long as they give me the time to do so, I'lll hang mics.

--Ben

[Corran]

For me this is all still a moot point - even if I fly mics, the mics will be in the shot, and therefore the video guys complain.

No joke - at the hall I record in the most at my college, the house mics were put up only about 15ft from the ceiling in a auditorium that is about 50ft high so it wouldn't be in the video of the orchestra which is broadcast. Here is a shot of the last concert I recorded that I was talking about earlier - the circled mics are the house mics which sound awful* and the arrows show my two flying mics and one stand. They complained about even that. Next concert I decided I am going to fly one bar with an ORTF pair and an AB pair, and be done with it. And demand an additional premium.

*they have two Neumann TLM-170s, both set to omni, and it used to be in a semi-XY setup but one of the shockmounts had some rubber bands pop and the mic fell forward and is now pointing at the floor. Seriously.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Most of the halls we record video and audio in there is NO PLACE to fly microphones. We have learned to deal with them in the video shoot. If someone can make an invisible wireless microphone that is capable of anti gravity and sound good I would be the first to purchase one. Until that time microphone stands are part of our setup.

[chris319]

at the hall I record in the most at my college, the house mics were put up only about 15ft from the ceiling in a auditorium that is about 50ft high so it wouldn't be in the video of the orchestra which is broadcast. Here is a shot of the last concert I recorded that I was talking about earlier - the circled mics are the house mics which sound awful* and the arrows show my two flying mics and one stand. They complained about even that.

What a bunch of weenies! As long as the mics don't obscure the players or their instruments, what's the difference to the TV camera? These video people need to realize the mics need to go somewhere. No mics, no audio and no point in the TV crew even being there.

[videoteque]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Anything is debatable.

I don't think so. We all agree microphones and stands are opaque and videocameras can't see through them!!!

Audio recording is a compromise. Audio + video recording is a bigger compromise still. Because is a compromise and you can't have 100% in every aspect, you call pros. Pros should be able to deal with the problems and make the best out of the situation.

I think most sound guys forget that in a wide shot you get to see nearly everything. But I would never complain if I can see some microphones in my wide shot, as long as they are not in front of a face or something. Then videocameras/musicians can be moved too, that's why there are sound/video checks to be done before!

For example in the Corran picture, the mics are in the air and could be seen only on a wide shot. I don't feel this to be a problem!

Ben, I think the percentual of vidiots vs decent video people is the same as deaf/stupid vs competent sound engineers!!! Mothers with videocameras are a lot more dangerous than most pros!!!

[Corran]

Originally Posted by videoteque

Mothers with videocameras are a lot more dangerous than most pros!!!

+999!

With the advent of cheap videocameras (and worse, video on the phone!), sale of DVD's/CD's at any middle/high school concerts has become hardly possible!

But there is hope - last week I bootlegged a concert of really good high schoolers doing a summer program (Schoeps CMC64, H4), and I saw some of the students the next day. I asked if they wanted to hear their concert and they told me that they had recorded it on their phone! But I started playing it anyway and they immediately stopped and came over to listen, because it was a night-and-day difference obviously. They were enlightened, and wanted a copy! I am still considering having a small portable TV/DVD player to bring to concerts to demo DVDs.

[gareth.h.rees]

Originally Posted by Corran

+999!

With the advent of cheap videocameras (and worse, video on the phone!), sale of DVD's/CD's at any middle/high school concerts has become hardly possible!

But there is hope - last week I bootlegged a concert of really good high schoolers doing a summer program (Schoeps CMC64, H4), and I saw some of the students the next day. I asked if they wanted to hear their concert and they told me that they had recorded it on their phone! But I started playing it anyway and they immediately stopped and came over to listen, because it was a night-and-day difference obviously. They were enlightened, and wanted a copy! I am still considering having a small portable TV/DVD player to bring to concerts to demo DVDs.

Think you've raised a really good point here. A lot of people probably "assume" that they can get good audio and/or video because they've spent £500 on some equipment (which to them is a lot of cash).

"Oh, well my handycam can record in HD so why do I need to hire people?"

What they don't appreciate is the skill and quality of professionals (or even good semi-pros). Maybe its a bit harder with audio, but letting people see/hear the difference for themselves is an eye opener. Suppose its a bit like driving. Everyone does it so it must be easy... until you take your first drive on a busy road!! (maybe its a little easier in America... bigger roads and automatic gears )

But my point was that I think its quite hard to convince people that you are better than their phone camera until you show them the results... and then they wonder how they can't do that too

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by videoteque

... you get to see nearly everything.....

It all does come down to priorities. My bias with a musical performance would be to favor the audio. If the video cameras are ever so slightly portable or positionable to avoid the slender slice of reality that a mic stand and mic takes up, I say go for it. This is assuming mics are ugly or distracting or something. That's debatable.

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

It all does come down to priorities. My bias with a musical performance would be to favor the audio. If the video cameras are ever so slightly portable or positionable to avoid the slender slice of reality that a mic stand and mic takes up, I say go for it. This is assuming mics are ugly or distracting or something. That's debatable.

We do digital editing all the time. I don't see why the video guys can't just digitally erase a mic pole out of the shot. (Hollywood does it all the time with guide wires.)

[chris319]

I don't see why the video guys can't just digitally erase a mic pole out of the shot. (Hollywood does it all the time with guide wires.)

First you need something to fill the void created by the removal of the mic stand. Second, if there's camera movement, you're going to have to replace the video frame by frame and that's going to take time, and time is money.

Provided the mics and stands aren't unreasonably obtrusive, a halfway decent video crew should be able to shoot around them.

[videoteque]

Originally Posted by hughesmr

We do digital editing all the time. I don't see why the video guys can't just digitally erase a mic pole out of the shot. (Hollywood does it all the time with guide wires.)

At the end of Hollywood films you see a list with thousands of names, 50% are the ones dedicated to take out cables from shots!!!

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by videoteque

At the end of Hollywood films you see a list with thousands of names, 50% are the ones dedicated to take out cables from shots!!!

Because it takes an inordinate amount of time and most places that do that kind of removal have software that is proprietary and one of a kind. It is NOT like audio where you can apply noise reduction software to the whole song you have to go basically frame by frame and you have to do it so that no one will notice It is NOT like blanking out a car's license plate or T shirt logo on COPS.

[videoteque]

Tom, my point was that it takes so much people that it would cost a leg!!!

[Sevitzky]

Alright guys. This thread has gotten out of hand.

I think I can safely say that the only proper way to resolve the issue is to record the recital without audio, and then go to a foley stage and ADR the music in later.

(Or the reverse, record the recital and then keep the artist in the hall afterwards and have them lip/bow/finger-sync to your recording)

[chris319]

How many years was Boston Pops on PBS, going back to when Arthur Fiedler was conductor? They managed.